LeBron Discussion/Thoughts

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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#361 » by RCM88x » Tue Feb 6, 2018 1:30 pm

UtahJazzFan88 wrote:How is Tristan Thompson and JR Smith working for you LeBron?

I can't believe a lot of players, media members, etc are blasting Gilbert, yet LeBron gets a pass.


Team was fine last year with those contracts. Besides, who gave those contracts out? Do you really think LeBron would request a trade if Gilbert didn't spend an extra $2M on TT? Or $3M on JR?

Letting Griffin go was the start of this spiral, that is blatantly obvious for anyone with a brain who has at least paid moderate attention to the team.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#362 » by Yoshun » Tue Feb 6, 2018 1:31 pm

M4P wrote:Both, but more so on Lebron. He needs to stop the cronyism within the organization and just let management sort itself out.


I don't know, I get where LeBron is coming from. He did this for nearly a decade when he started his career and it was a complete mess. Crap team after crap team.

I can understand why he does what he does. He's going to win and lose on his own terms because he's the one who is going to be at fault regardless.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#363 » by RIP Kobe » Tue Feb 6, 2018 3:08 pm

RCM88x wrote:
UtahJazzFan88 wrote:How is Tristan Thompson and JR Smith working for you LeBron?

I can't believe a lot of players, media members, etc are blasting Gilbert, yet LeBron gets a pass.


Team was fine last year with those contracts.


the team was being carried by kyrie last season.

lebron is nothing without kyrie.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#364 » by RCM88x » Tue Feb 6, 2018 3:13 pm

CountOnAlex wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
UtahJazzFan88 wrote:How is Tristan Thompson and JR Smith working for you LeBron?

I can't believe a lot of players, media members, etc are blasting Gilbert, yet LeBron gets a pass.


Team was fine last year with those contracts.


the team was being carried by kyrie last season.

lebron is nothing without kyrie.


Water is Dry.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#365 » by -Sammy- » Tue Feb 6, 2018 3:20 pm

Yoshun wrote:
M4P wrote:Both, but more so on Lebron. He needs to stop the cronyism within the organization and just let management sort itself out.


I don't know, I get where LeBron is coming from. He did this for nearly a decade when he started his career and it was a complete mess. Crap team after crap team.

I can understand why he does what he does. He's going to win and lose on his own terms because he's the one who is going to be at fault regardless.


This is a good and overlooked point. LeBron's conduct and decisions haven't been flawless by any means, but the motivation behind them is an understandable reaction to the fact that he spent the first part of his career trusting an inept front office and getting diminishing returns as a reward for that trust.

I hate it when players publicly demand trades, for instance, but from the player perspective, it's perhaps understandable if that team's FO isn't demonstrating an ability or willingness to put a contender around the player.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#366 » by John Murdoch » Tue Feb 6, 2018 3:33 pm

Griffin is an excellent GM . I can definitely see Gilbert being jelly but pointing fingers isnt helping anyone at this point . Altman is a puppet GM we all know that.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#367 » by Eyeamok » Tue Feb 6, 2018 3:47 pm

Opponent
2017 Golden State Warriors 4-1 Cleveland Cavaliers
2016 Cleveland Cavaliers 4-3 Golden State Warriors
2015 Golden State Warriors 4-2 Cleveland Cavaliers
2014 San Antonio Spurs 4-1 Miami Heat
2013 Miami Heat 4-3 San Antonio Spurs
2012 Miami Heat 4-1 Oklahoma City Thunder
2011 Dallas Mavericks 4-2 Miami Heat
2010 Los Angeles Lakers 4-3 Boston Celtics
2009 Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 Orlando Magic
2008 Boston Celtics 4-2 Los Angeles Lakers
2007 San Antonio Spurs 4-0 Cleveland Cavaliers
2006 Miami Heat 4-2 Dallas Mavericks
2005 San Antonio Spurs 4-3 Detroit Pistons
2004 Detroit Pistons 4-1 Los Angeles Lakers
2003 San Antonio Spurs 4-2 New Jersey Nets
2002 Los Angeles Lakers 4-0 New Jersey Nets
2001 Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 Philadelphia 76ers

How many times has Cleveland won a title without LeBron? So yes maybe he had too much power but he used his power well and they achieved the ultimate goal in the NBA.

Say what you will about LBJ but he came back to Cleveland and worked with Gilbert put aside feelings and won a title. The rest is moot since Durant went to the Warriors. Even if Cleveland played great this year, they were not going to beat a young in their prime warrior team at this point. Just too much firepower there to contend with.

Now if Durant never went to Golden State then there would be something to debate about. But if no one is injured and they have fit everyone under the cap, no one is beating Golden State this year. At least no one from the East.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#368 » by RIP Kobe » Tue Feb 6, 2018 3:51 pm

RCM88x wrote:
CountOnAlex wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Team was fine last year with those contracts.


the team was being carried by kyrie last season.

lebron is nothing without kyrie.


Water is Dry.


i mean.. the proof is there this season.

you have essentially the same team but without kyrie and they're struggling.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#369 » by Coachcavplaya23 » Tue Feb 6, 2018 4:07 pm

RCM88x wrote:
UtahJazzFan88 wrote:How is Tristan Thompson and JR Smith working for you LeBron?

I can't believe a lot of players, media members, etc are blasting Gilbert, yet LeBron gets a pass.


Team was fine last year with those contracts. Besides, who gave those contracts out? Do you really think LeBron would request a trade if Gilbert didn't spend an extra $2M on TT? Or $3M on JR?

Letting Griffin go was the start of this spiral, that is blatantly obvious for anyone with a brain who has at least paid moderate attention to the team.


Griffin gave those contracts out. Gilbert wasnt responsible for that. Those only got done once Lebron said something about it. Griffin handicapped the team with those contracts. They cant improve the team because any trade they make has to include one of those contracts. Those contracts also lower the value of any asset attached to them.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#370 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 6, 2018 4:56 pm

Whenever you go all in and become a repeater tax team the overpaid players you gave that $ too to get it done, have to bring it every night. The mess they are in is the window is closing the team is aging the goal was already reached and the 2nd best player on the roster last season and during those finals runs bailed for a plethora of reasons mostly selfish ones.
I blame Irving for not running with the King until the window was completely closed,even though his name was on the block in pg13 trades, he instead jumped out when it was just starting to close and pulled it down further by doing so.
This org is not going to try to salvage 1 more season of Lebron if they don't think whatever they do in the next few days will equate to a championship. They will instead make a couple tax saving deals and maybe a stop gap trade in the expectation that Lebron will leave since he won't commit and they will be kick starting the rebuild with the Nets pick.
There is obviously a chance that pick could draw much more interest than it is now once the actual pick rank is finalized, and then if they can get a commitment from Lebron will move the pick for a player or players that make them a contender again with Lebron.
This season is nothing more than the result of a bad offseason, and that started by the way they lost to GSW after almost sweeping the East. The assets to add a player to make them on par with GSW was not there so they tryed to trade Irving, and when that failed he demanded a trade and now you see what we have now.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#371 » by Boarder Patrol » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:03 pm

This goes back to the organization whether LeBron wanted those guys or not (which was a dumb thing to want in fairness). I don't care if it's LeBron, you make the correct basketball moves and don't let a player run your team. It's like these guys have no respect for themselves as professionals.

Would LeBron have been PO'd? Maybe, but for one there was never a shot at him leaving before this year, and two, had they made the correct moves there's a great chance they'd have avoided all this RS drama the past couple years and actually been good this year, two things which would have made LeBron infinitely more likely to stay. He'd be happy winning whether his friends got paid or not.
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Re: Woj says Lebron is almost guaranteed to leave 

Post#372 » by gmoney411 » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:05 pm

lvckv wrote:
gmoney411 wrote:
ken6199 wrote:There is almost zero chance you can build a team to beat the Warriors.

Think how it all started. Curry's 'ankle contract', and good drafting in Klay and Draymond, allowed them to win their 1st title and the 73W season afterwards. Without those success, Durant wouldn't be joining. Plus the sudden salary jump AFTER they locked Klay and Draymond in super friendly deals. Tell me, all 4 of those things happen again, at the same time, what are the chances?

Even getting CP by giving away pretty much nothing is a miracle itself. Adding Lebron without gutting the roster? Little chance. Even with that big 3, you need Tucker LMAM Capela stay on peanut contracts, Ariza earning half of what Evan Turner earns, while all having to give max contribution to just compete with the Warriors.

What Warriors did is once in a life time incident. It's easy to say "Lebron joins A/B/C to go against the Warriors".


If LeBron can be acquired in a sign and trade the roster won't have to be gutted. Anderson and Gordon are only about $1MM away from LeBron's opt in number. If you give CP3 and Clint a combined 50 the Rockets are paying $123 for Harden/CP3/LeBron/Clint/PJ. That's only $7MM more than the Warriors are paying for Curry/KD/Klay/Green/Iggy. And that Warriors number will be higher if Durant opts out and asks for more money which he likely will.

Ariza and Luc are the guys that will have to take pay cuts. I think Ariza will but Luc probably won't want to sign another minimum deal. Nene is already locked in at 3.6. The rest of the roster will be ring chasing guys on low end deals like the Warriors have.


A sign-and-trade means LeBron opts in to his player option for $35.6m with Cleveland, or opts out re-signs for $35.3m before getting traded.

The Cavaliers have to take on at least $28m to trade him, meaning Anderson and Tucker/Gordon (plus presumably a number of firsts) for LeBron is a trade that happens - pretty bad return for the Cavs.

This sign-and-trade hard-caps the Rockets, so they absolutely cannot go over $128m (projected based on $101m cap projection) under any circumstances. So now they have LeBron, Harden, Tucker, Nene, Onuaku under guaranteed contracts at $79m. That leaves $49m to spend on Chris Paul (who wants a $35m max), Capela (who wants a big contract too), Ariza, and then 7 other players.

Would CP3 going to take a huge discount to keep Capela and Ariza? Or would he take the max, as everyone assumes he absolutely will, and then Morey has $14m to spend on 9 players...

A sign-and-trade could be feasible if CP3 and Capela take big one-year discounts, then re-sign long-term the next year. Would be a **** move though.



The roster would have to be totally gutted to sign him as a free agent, yeah.

Houston has $81m in guaranteed contracts for next season. Chris Paul's cap hold is $36m, Ariza's is $11m, Capela's is $7m. That's $135m - the cap is projected at $101m, the tax line at $123m.

So they need to clear space. Anderson $20m, Gordon $13.5m, Tucker $8m, Nene $3m are gone immediately - down to $92m assuming a team will take them without shedding a cent of guaranteed salary back to the Rockets, which is out of this world unlikely. Black, Brown, Mbah a Moute, Onuaku, Qi - the end of bench dudes - go next and they're down to $84m.

Ok, now renounce Ariza and Capela - $66m left now, just Harden's contract and CP3's hold. Just about enough room to max LeBron and sneak under the $101m cap. So after CP3 signs, your 2018-19 Houston Rockets are those 3 stars, a $8m non-taxpayer MLE, and 10 minimum contracts (ranging from $800k for rookies, to $2m+ for 7+year vets). No chance.


CP3 isn't getting $35MM from the Rockets unless they win a title. He can't play a full season anymore and I'm not sure there are any competitors out there that are going to offer him that number. He will probably get a long deal from the Rockets but it will likely be something like 5/125MM. And that's not even him taking a real discount. It's about what he's worth at this point. With his health the last few years of contract could be terrible.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#373 » by igorbianch » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:07 pm

Stillwater wrote:Whenever you go all in and become a repeater tax team the overpaid players you gave that $ too to get it done, have to bring it every night. The mess they are in is the window is closing the team is aging the goal was already reached and the 2nd best player on the roster last season and during those finals runs bailed for a plethora of reasons mostly selfish ones.
I blame Irving for not running with the King until the window was completely closed,even though his name was on the block in pg13 trades, he instead jumped out when it was just starting to close and pulled it down further by doing so.
This org is not going to try to salvage 1 more season of Lebron if they don't think whatever they do in the next few days will equate to a championship. They will instead make a couple tax saving deals and maybe a stop gap trade in the expectation that Lebron will leave since he won't commit and they will be kick starting the rebuild with the Nets pick.
There is obviously a chance that pick could draw much more interest than it is now once the actual pick rank is finalized, and then if they can get a commitment from Lebron will move the pick for a player or players that make them a contender again with Lebron.
This season is nothing more than the result of a bad offseason, and that started by the way they lost to GSW after almost sweeping the East. The assets to add a player to make them on par with GSW was not there so they tryed to trade Irving, and when that failed he demanded a trade and now you see what we have now.


Kyrie treated the Cleveland the same way LBJ treated him.

He gave LeBron a ring and 1 year later he was seen as an asset to improve the team(PG and Bledsoe). Thats selfish af, Kyrie was going to spend 2 years of his prime in a **** team.

Why do you blame Kyrie for being selfish and not blame LBJ for the same reason? You cant treat everyone as a business and expect they treat you as a human.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#374 » by ken6199 » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:10 pm

At this point I wouldn't even offer CP 5/125. You think he is going to play 60+ games for the next 5 seasons? I wouldn't even offer LeBron that much money if he is looking for a long term deal. With that much mileage on his body, you are running with a big risk.

Just look at how many games Harden missed in his past five seasons, how many games Klay, Green missed. CP playing 40 games a year < Ariza playing 82 games a year. You gut your roster for a player with uncanny mileage on his body and a potential to be wiped out for a season with some serious injury, not worth it.

Anderson+Tucker+1st for Lebron. I wouldn't offer anything more.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#375 » by baubo » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:22 pm

mtron929 wrote:
baubo wrote:
mtron929 wrote:
But again, this is a curious way to evaluate the situation. So are we comparing a win/loss impact of a transcendent player versus an owner?


No, I'm comparing the competency of each side as compared to their peers. If the Cavs front office were any competent they wouldn't have needed to luck into 3 No.1 picks in order to provide just a baseline of necessary support for LeBron. Imagine if someone like Riley or Ainge or Morey in that Cavs front office. Do you honestly think they'd need to keep overpaying Shumpert and Korver and JR Smith in order to build around LeBron?


Well, if you compare the competency of each side, then Lebron is one of the greatest players of all time. In terms of competency, he is at the 99.999% percentile of all the players who have ever played the game. Is this what is being compared? Then, of course, Lebron has ZERO fault whatsoever as whatever fault he has is erased away by his god given talent/skills.

I thought this discussion was about something else, but clearly you have a different criterion, and one that I don't agree with.


Well, given that I listed 3 GMs in today's NBA (meaning roughly top 10% even if I believe those are the best GMs which I don't) as enough for the Cavs front office, clearly I'm NOT saying what you're implying. And it seems you've managed to skip the meat of my post and just went for the first sentence. Since you didn't respond to anything substantive I have nothing to add here.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#376 » by gmoney411 » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:24 pm

ken6199 wrote:At this point I wouldn't even offer CP 5/125. You think he is going to play 60+ games for the next 5 seasons? I wouldn't even offer LeBron that much money if he is looking for a long term deal. With that much mileage on his body, you are running with a big risk.

Just look at how many games Harden missed in his past five seasons, how many games Klay, Green missed. CP playing 40 games a year < Ariza playing 82 games a year. You gut your roster for a player with uncanny mileage on his body and a potential to be wiped out for a season with some serious injury, not worth it.

Anderson+Tucker+1st for Lebron. I wouldn't offer anything more.


I don't disagree. My initial thought was 5/120. CP3 for the next year or two is probably still a top 10 level player worth close to a max. I think a 5 year deal will average out his current and future worth and that is something he would probably be ok with. Instead of getting 30 now and 10 later he gets 20 every year. Maybe 4/80. Whatever it is I know Morey isn't throwing away all future cap flexibility for an aging PG just because he wants the max.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#377 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:25 pm

igorbianch wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Whenever you go all in and become a repeater tax team the overpaid players you gave that $ too to get it done, have to bring it every night. The mess they are in is the window is closing the team is aging the goal was already reached and the 2nd best player on the roster last season and during those finals runs bailed for a plethora of reasons mostly selfish ones.
I blame Irving for not running with the King until the window was completely closed,even though his name was on the block in pg13 trades, he instead jumped out when it was just starting to close and pulled it down further by doing so.
This org is not going to try to salvage 1 more season of Lebron if they don't think whatever they do in the next few days will equate to a championship. They will instead make a couple tax saving deals and maybe a stop gap trade in the expectation that Lebron will leave since he won't commit and they will be kick starting the rebuild with the Nets pick.
There is obviously a chance that pick could draw much more interest than it is now once the actual pick rank is finalized, and then if they can get a commitment from Lebron will move the pick for a player or players that make them a contender again with Lebron.
This season is nothing more than the result of a bad offseason, and that started by the way they lost to GSW after almost sweeping the East. The assets to add a player to make them on par with GSW was not there so they tryed to trade Irving, and when that failed he demanded a trade and now you see what we have now.


Kyrie treated the Cleveland the same way LBJ treated him.

He gave LeBron a ring and 1 year later he was seen as an asset to improve the team(PG and Bledsoe). Thats selfish af, Kyrie was going to spend 2 years of his prime in a **** team.

Why do you blame Kyrie for being selfish and not blame LBJ for the same reason? You cant treat everyone as a business and expect they treat you as a human.

Fair points, but I don't actually believe Lebron ever wanted Irving traded. Griffin was testing the waters on what he could get for Irving, the plan backfired, he parted ways with the org not Lebron.
Either way it's obviously is water under the bridge and irrelevant going forward. I prefer not to focus on the past when there are plenty of opportunities to kick start this current roster with a couple of tweaks like removing the failed plan in IT3 and the pile of manure he has been on both sides of the ball since he clearly is not 100%. Just by adding a better 2-way pg and a stop gap defender around the rim and suddenly the majority of these teams defensive issues dissolve away. Does it make the Cav's on par with GSW or the Rockets;not a chance. But it does make them competitive enough to make it to the finals again where as we have seen in other years anything can happen from west team injuries to Lebron going ****.
Window is not closed, but unless they can accept IT3 is not the answer and prop that window open for a little longer, it will be.
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Re: Woj says Lebron is almost guaranteed to leave 

Post#378 » by dynamic duo » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:33 pm

Impuniti wrote:
dynamic duo wrote:Image

Image

Spoiler:
Image

You want him to join a team that is going to hit 50+ wins without their superstar for the entire season? A team that can go 60+ wins without Lebron? Isn't that wrong when it comes trophy hunting DD? You know a weak move of historic proportions? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


don't matter where old maxed out lebron goes at this point.

prime durant left stacked okc team and prime mvp in westbrook to join the already title favorites in 73-9 warriors and took a massive pay cut for this historically stacked team, now that's weak.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#379 » by khufure » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:35 pm

Obviously, it's the Cavaliers organization fault. Oops #1 - drafting Anthony Bennett 1 overall when they could have had Oladipo, greek freak, Otto Porter, Steve Adams, etc. instead of the worst useless player in the draft. Oops #2 - TT's contract. Should have let this scrub go. Plenty of rebounding defending PF/Cs around for cheap. Oops #3 - I think they could have traded the pick for Butler or George etc players who weren't injured really really short all-star.

Bottom line Lebron is 33 and still playing amazingly well. 33-36 is usually when the performance cliff appears for players, though... if he ages they're done.
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Re: LeBron vs Dan Gilbert: whos is the one to blame for this Cavs mess? 

Post#380 » by Lalouie » Tue Feb 6, 2018 5:48 pm

It's a pick em.

LeBron runs the asylum. Gilbert is unpopular. Fans are willing to blame both depending on who they hate most.

I blame LeBron because the org has bent over backwards for his roster. He holds them hostage by not committing so who's fault is that

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