Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[Jamaaliver]

Trump’s stock market miscalculation

After cheering the market’s relentless rise, Trump is forced to face the reality of Monday's swift and historic fall.


President Donald Trump is learning a basic and painful lesson of Wall Street: Stocks also go down.

...the Dow Jones Industrial Average plung[ed] nearly 1,600 points at one point in roller-coaster afternoon trading. After a volatile session, the Dow ended down 1,175 points, or 4.6%, at 24,346.

It was the largest ever single-day point drop for the Dow and it rattled both Wall Street and Washington, abruptly ending a remarkable period of placid markets where it often seemed the only direction was up. A young generation of Wall Street traders has never seen the kind of whipsaw action that seized markets Monday.

On top of concerns about rising inflation, the tax cuts are already increasing the federal government’s need to borrow and accelerating the date by which Congress must raise the federal debt limit. And as of Monday, there was still no plan in Washington to raise the limit and avoid a catastrophic default.

The result is that a president who tossed aside traditional presidential caution in cheerleading the stock market now stands poised to take the blame for any correction.

Trump has regularly boasted on Twitter that the stock market rise, which actually began in 2009 at the end of the last recession, is the direct result of his policies on taxes and regulation.

Interest rates are already rising as the government discloses it will have to ramp up borrowing in 2018 to make up for revenue lost to the tax-cut bill.

Stocks are still far higher than they were when Trump took office, but the return of sharp volatility — and the possibility of further declines — has now put Trump in the uncomfortable position of being directly associated with daily market moves.

Politico

[gtn130]

I just can't believe a brave FISA hawk like Nate stood by silently as the Rogue Congress passed the Dangerous (and Sick!) 702 re-authorization when we ALL knew such a powerful anti-terrorism weapon would go right into the hands of the Obama Deep State Judges and their Kangaroo Court!

Which side is Nate on????

With the warrantless 702 searches, you're not forced to lie to get a warrant. Nunes promoting a more honest nation.

Honestly, in this constant loop of idiocy we live in, I could see RWNJs making this argument.

[Zonkerbl]

I could be wrong - maybe whites are still predominantly racist. Maybe there hasn't been any progress. But I can't find anecdotal or the data.

Show me the data where the country is becoming more racist?

Here are a couple articles and studies that discuss the idea of an attack on white people, how Trump won white voters (directly ties to the idea of supporting his racism or it not being a deal breaker), how whites and non whites view racism.

http://theconversation.com/the-dangerous-belief-that-white-people-are-under-attack-88622

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/politics/blacks-white-racism-united-states-polls/index.html

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study

Has progress been made in terms of public opinion? Sure. Look at the polling stats compared to how people supported the civil rights movement vs black lives matter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/black-lives-matters-and-americas-long-history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/?utm_term=.0da3783cb3ff

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/08/how-americans-view-the-black-lives-matter-movement/

Although it’s not a tidy comparison, the amount of people that neither (approve or disapprove) on the broad subject of civil rights has grown since the 60’s. So my question is dckingsfan, did attitudes change or are people just less willing to be upfront about their beliefs on race? I think worrying about being called a racist actually takes away from being able to correctly identity racist intent and more importantly racial policies that disproportionately affect people of color.

Okay, read all the articles and the sub-links, they were informative and worth reading. But it doesn't change my opinion that the country is still going in the right direction (see the last paragraph for what did change).

I still think that the country has made good and steady progress. But, like the recent stock market correction, we are having a bit of a correction now but still headed in the right direction.

If you have just gone through the Trump debacle - it might now seem that way. Trump was able to appeal to the anger out there (and there is lots of anger). Much of that anger is due to the failing of our local/state/federal government services. It is due to unfair tax policy. And those voters wanted change - they wanted to blow up the status quo and they came out and voted. And if Hillary's campaign was half-way decent, we wouldn't be talking about Trump. And Trump vilified as many camps as he could to develop a base.

But, if you can put the Trump election aside and look at the progress from say the 60s - then it might be easier to see (or if you are old, then you experienced it).

One article that jumped out at me (and was very compelling) is the frustration with the rate with which the country is changing. And that can't be understated. The longer it takes, the more frustration there will be... An example would be those in prison for low-level drug offenses. Really? We can't take care of that?

So, I still think the country is going in the right direction (in terms of social justice). I just don't think we are going there fast enough. I worry that since this is a local/state/federal level issue - it is going to be tough to get there quickly.

And I worry that not having either party focused on sustainable government will just exacerbate the situation. See Kansas and Illinois and the federal government cutting programs due to the outlay/revenue imbalance.

I strongly and firmly deny that white people have anything to complain about. I think Trump has tapped into a general "angry white guy" thing that is ingrained in the culture and has always been there. We have all this racism in this country because angry white guys are always looking for somebody to blame for their own failings. It's a story as old as this country.

Opioid crisis notwithstanding, suck it up, buttercup.

[dckingsfan]

Here are a couple articles and studies that discuss the idea of an attack on white people, how Trump won white voters (directly ties to the idea of supporting his racism or it not being a deal breaker), how whites and non whites view racism.

http://theconversation.com/the-dangerous-belief-that-white-people-are-under-attack-88622

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/politics/blacks-white-racism-united-states-polls/index.html

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study

Has progress been made in terms of public opinion? Sure. Look at the polling stats compared to how people supported the civil rights movement vs black lives matter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/black-lives-matters-and-americas-long-history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/?utm_term=.0da3783cb3ff

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/08/how-americans-view-the-black-lives-matter-movement/

Although it’s not a tidy comparison, the amount of people that neither (approve or disapprove) on the broad subject of civil rights has grown since the 60’s. So my question is dckingsfan, did attitudes change or are people just less willing to be upfront about their beliefs on race? I think worrying about being called a racist actually takes away from being able to correctly identity racist intent and more importantly racial policies that disproportionately affect people of color.

Okay, read all the articles and the sub-links, they were informative and worth reading. But it doesn't change my opinion that the country is still going in the right direction (see the last paragraph for what did change).

I still think that the country has made good and steady progress. But, like the recent stock market correction, we are having a bit of a correction now but still headed in the right direction.

If you have just gone through the Trump debacle - it might now seem that way. Trump was able to appeal to the anger out there (and there is lots of anger). Much of that anger is due to the failing of our local/state/federal government services. It is due to unfair tax policy. And those voters wanted change - they wanted to blow up the status quo and they came out and voted. And if Hillary's campaign was half-way decent, we wouldn't be talking about Trump. And Trump vilified as many camps as he could to develop a base.

But, if you can put the Trump election aside and look at the progress from say the 60s - then it might be easier to see (or if you are old, then you experienced it).

One article that jumped out at me (and was very compelling) is the frustration with the rate with which the country is changing. And that can't be understated. The longer it takes, the more frustration there will be... An example would be those in prison for low-level drug offenses. Really? We can't take care of that?

So, I still think the country is going in the right direction (in terms of social justice). I just don't think we are going there fast enough. I worry that since this is a local/state/federal level issue - it is going to be tough to get there quickly.

And I worry that not having either party focused on sustainable government will just exacerbate the situation. See Kansas and Illinois and the federal government cutting programs due to the outlay/revenue imbalance.

I strongly and firmly deny that white people have anything to complain about. I think Trump has tapped into a general "angry white guy" thing that is ingrained in the culture and has always been there. We have all this racism in this country because angry white guys are always looking for somebody to blame for their own failings. It's a story as old as this country.

Opioid crisis notwithstanding, suck it up, buttercup.

Anger is a great motivator and like you say, it's a story as old as this country. Regardless of if someone has a right to complain, they still do. What's that saying in the eagles song - "I can't complain but sometimes I still do..."

The key is to focus the electorate on the issues they should be focused on - and not on each other. And that (as you pointed out previously) isn't what Hillary did - in fact she exacerbated the issue with the deplorables comment.

But back to the theme of this ongoing post - do you think the country is less racist now than in the 50s? I think not - I think we are still headed in the right direction - but just too damn slowly.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I still think that the country has made good and steady progress. But, like the recent stock market correction, we are having a bit of a correction now but still headed in the right direction.

If you have just gone through the Trump debacle - it might now seem that way. Trump was able to appeal to the anger out there (and there is lots of anger). Much of that anger is due to the failing of our local/state/federal government services. It is due to unfair tax policy. And those voters wanted change - they wanted to blow up the status quo and they came out and voted. And if Hillary's campaign was half-way decent, we wouldn't be talking about Trump. And Trump vilified as many camps as he could to develop a base.

But, if you can put the Trump election aside and look at the progress from say the 60s - then it might be easier to see (or if you are old, then you experienced it).

One article that jumped out at me (and was very compelling) is the frustration with the rate with which the country is changing. And that can't be understated. The longer it takes, the more frustration there will be... An example would be those in prison for low-level drug offenses. Really? We can't take care of that?

So, I still think the country is going in the right direction (in terms of social justice). I just don't think we are going there fast enough. I worry that since this is a local/state/federal level issue - it is going to be tough to get there quickly.

And I worry that not having either party focused on sustainable government will just exacerbate the situation. See Kansas and Illinois and the federal government cutting programs due to the outlay/revenue imbalance.

As for right direction, absolutely possible. But whether or not that's the case, how much of that right direction was because people were willing to call out racism when they saw it, or really any injustice? If people aren't vocal about those sorts of things, those sorts of things change.

And I would suggest you don't put the Trump election aside. I think the Trump election was a symptom of a larger issue. You mentioned the pace at which things have changed and I agree. While there has been quite a bit of change for the better, there has also been quite a bit of change for the worse overall. And one key change is the media through which we communicate. Nobody seems to have really noticed how social media has changed the dynamic of society. It's making it easier for people to find like minded people and segregate from those who don't reinforce their existing beliefs. I see this as significant on the levels of increasing literacy or the spread of the printing press - that sort of thing - and yet the full effects aren't exactly known. That particular change seems like it is going to make it both potentially easier and realistically harder to tackle various social issues.

Sustainable government is also a critical issue, but that's one that also has a ton of societal issues tied in, because it's going to take much more than simplifying the tax code and cutting a few social programs to rebalance everything. Frankly, capitalism needs far more checks at this stage as the ones it had previously have basically all been broken.

[Zonkerbl]

Okay, read all the articles and the sub-links, they were informative and worth reading. But it doesn't change my opinion that the country is still going in the right direction (see the last paragraph for what did change).

I still think that the country has made good and steady progress. But, like the recent stock market correction, we are having a bit of a correction now but still headed in the right direction.

If you have just gone through the Trump debacle - it might now seem that way. Trump was able to appeal to the anger out there (and there is lots of anger). Much of that anger is due to the failing of our local/state/federal government services. It is due to unfair tax policy. And those voters wanted change - they wanted to blow up the status quo and they came out and voted. And if Hillary's campaign was half-way decent, we wouldn't be talking about Trump. And Trump vilified as many camps as he could to develop a base.

But, if you can put the Trump election aside and look at the progress from say the 60s - then it might be easier to see (or if you are old, then you experienced it).

One article that jumped out at me (and was very compelling) is the frustration with the rate with which the country is changing. And that can't be understated. The longer it takes, the more frustration there will be... An example would be those in prison for low-level drug offenses. Really? We can't take care of that?

So, I still think the country is going in the right direction (in terms of social justice). I just don't think we are going there fast enough. I worry that since this is a local/state/federal level issue - it is going to be tough to get there quickly.

And I worry that not having either party focused on sustainable government will just exacerbate the situation. See Kansas and Illinois and the federal government cutting programs due to the outlay/revenue imbalance.

I strongly and firmly deny that white people have anything to complain about. I think Trump has tapped into a general "angry white guy" thing that is ingrained in the culture and has always been there. We have all this racism in this country because angry white guys are always looking for somebody to blame for their own failings. It's a story as old as this country.

Opioid crisis notwithstanding, suck it up, buttercup.

Anger is a great motivator and like you say, it's a story as old as this country. Regardless of if someone has a right to complain, they still do. What's that saying in the eagles song - "I can't complain but sometimes I still do..."

The key is to focus the electorate on the issues they should be focused on - and not on each other. And that (as you pointed out previously) isn't what Hillary did - in fact she exacerbated the issue with the deplorables comment.

But back to the theme of this ongoing post - do you think the country is less racist now than in the 50s? I think not - I think we are still headed in the right direction - but just too damn slowly.

What with the incessant whining about political correctness, I wonder if all the racism has just been driven underground. Yes, there are less lynchings and KKK marches. But has anyone actually changed their thinking? If we've made any progress, it's much less than we thought.

[dckingsfan]

I still think that the country has made good and steady progress. But, like the recent stock market correction, we are having a bit of a correction now but still headed in the right direction.

If you have just gone through the Trump debacle - it might now seem that way. Trump was able to appeal to the anger out there (and there is lots of anger). Much of that anger is due to the failing of our local/state/federal government services. It is due to unfair tax policy. And those voters wanted change - they wanted to blow up the status quo and they came out and voted. And if Hillary's campaign was half-way decent, we wouldn't be talking about Trump. And Trump vilified as many camps as he could to develop a base.

But, if you can put the Trump election aside and look at the progress from say the 60s - then it might be easier to see (or if you are old, then you experienced it).

One article that jumped out at me (and was very compelling) is the frustration with the rate with which the country is changing. And that can't be understated. The longer it takes, the more frustration there will be... An example would be those in prison for low-level drug offenses. Really? We can't take care of that?

So, I still think the country is going in the right direction (in terms of social justice). I just don't think we are going there fast enough. I worry that since this is a local/state/federal level issue - it is going to be tough to get there quickly.

And I worry that not having either party focused on sustainable government will just exacerbate the situation. See Kansas and Illinois and the federal government cutting programs due to the outlay/revenue imbalance.

As for right direction, absolutely possible. But whether or not that's the case, how much of that right direction was because people were willing to call out racism when they saw it, or really any injustice? If people aren't vocal about those sorts of things, those sorts of things change.

And I would suggest you don't put the Trump election aside. I think the Trump election was a symptom of a larger issue. You mentioned the pace at which things have changed and I agree. While there has been quite a bit of change for the better, there has also been quite a bit of change for the worse overall. And one key change is the media through which we communicate. Nobody seems to have really noticed how social media has changed the dynamic of society. It's making it easier for people to find like minded people and segregate from those who don't reinforce their existing beliefs. I see this as significant on the levels of increasing literacy or the spread of the printing press - that sort of thing - and yet the full effects aren't exactly known. That particular change seems like it is going to make it both potentially easier and realistically harder to tackle various social issues.

Sustainable government is also a critical issue, but that's one that also has a ton of societal issues tied in, because it's going to take much more than simplifying the tax code and cutting a few social programs to rebalance everything. Frankly, capitalism needs far more checks at this stage as the ones it had previously have basically all been broken.

Thanks for the considered response. You make some good points. And sustainable government may end up being the key issue to all of it. (BTW, I don't think sustainable government is about cutting social programs - an example would be healthcare where we need to kill the cost drivers). If government is working for all then we continue down the right path - if not, it can be exploited in elections.

I guess we won't agree on Trump. I see him as an aberration where the country ran two very bad candidates.

[Pointgod]

Interesting how the Alt Right is analyzing the stock market correction!
Expect more Alt Right excuses from the Wacka Doodle Twins today.

“The reason our stock market is so successful is because of me,” Trump said in November. “I’ve always been great with money, I’ve always been great with jobs, that’s what I do. And I’ve done it well, I’ve done it really well, much better than people understand and they understand I’ve done well.”

“Is the historic -1500 DOW drop a false flag by the big banks?” tweeted InfoWars host Alex Jones, a moon-landing denier who counts President Trump among his fans. “Should we investigate Goldman Sachs?!”

Not every fringe fan of the president’s pinned the erasure of billions of dollars in wealth on a financial “false flag”—Goldman Sachs is unlikely to engineer a market correction when its alumni make up a stunning percentage of Trump Administration staffers and appointees—so other Trump supporters merely derided any attempts to connect President Trump with market performance.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/alt-right-trump-fanboys-tap-dance-around-the-dow-drop?ref=home

A FALSE FLAG operation?!?!?! My god, how stupid are these people?

This is why you can't reason with certain people Zonkerbl. This isn't a small amount of people that believe this crap. There is no saving certain people better off spending your energy empowering those that you can convert to your side.

[Zonkerbl]

Interesting how the Alt Right is analyzing the stock market correction!
Expect more Alt Right excuses from the Wacka Doodle Twins today.






https://www.thedailybeast.com/alt-right-trump-fanboys-tap-dance-around-the-dow-drop?ref=home

A FALSE FLAG operation?!?!?! My god, how stupid are these people?

This is why you can't reason with certain people Zonkerbl. This isn't a small amount of people that believe this crap. There is no saving certain people better off spending your energy empowering those that you can convert to your side.

Mos def. I'm in favor of turning the Democratic party sharply left and really focusing seriously on issues that matter to the base, rather than chasing after moderates who can't be bothered to care or vote.

[Pointgod]

I could be wrong - maybe whites are still predominantly racist. Maybe there hasn't been any progress. But I can't find anecdotal or the data.

Show me the data where the country is becoming more racist?

Here are a couple articles and studies that discuss the idea of an attack on white people, how Trump won white voters (directly ties to the idea of supporting his racism or it not being a deal breaker), how whites and non whites view racism.

http://theconversation.com/the-dangerous-belief-that-white-people-are-under-attack-88622

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/politics/blacks-white-racism-united-states-polls/index.html

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study

Has progress been made in terms of public opinion? Sure. Look at the polling stats compared to how people supported the civil rights movement vs black lives matter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/black-lives-matters-and-americas-long-history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/?utm_term=.0da3783cb3ff

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/08/how-americans-view-the-black-lives-matter-movement/

Although it’s not a tidy comparison, the amount of people that neither (approve or disapprove) on the broad subject of civil rights has grown since the 60’s. So my question is dckingsfan, did attitudes change or are people just less willing to be upfront about their beliefs on race? I think worrying about being called a racist actually takes away from being able to correctly identity racist intent and more importantly racial policies that disproportionately affect people of color.

Okay, read all the articles and the sub-links, they were informative and worth reading. But it doesn't change my opinion that the country is still going in the right direction (see the last paragraph for what did change).

I still think that the country has made good and steady progress. But, like the recent stock market correction, we are having a bit of a correction now but still headed in the right direction.

If you have just gone through the Trump debacle - it might now seem that way. Trump was able to appeal to the anger out there (and there is lots of anger). Much of that anger is due to the failing of our local/state/federal government services. It is due to unfair tax policy. And those voters wanted change - they wanted to blow up the status quo and they came out and voted. And if Hillary's campaign was half-way decent, we wouldn't be talking about Trump. And Trump vilified as many camps as he could to develop a base.

But, if you can put the Trump election aside and look at the progress from say the 60s - then it might be easier to see (or if you are old, then you experienced it).

One article that jumped out at me (and was very compelling) is the frustration with the rate with which the country is changing. And that can't be understated. The longer it takes, the more frustration there will be... An example would be those in prison for low-level drug offenses. Really? We can't take care of that?

So, I still think the country is going in the right direction (in terms of social justice). I just don't think we are going there fast enough. I worry that since this is a local/state/federal level issue - it is going to be tough to get there quickly.

And I worry that not having either party focused on sustainable government will just exacerbate the situation. See Kansas and Illinois and the federal government cutting programs due to the outlay/revenue imbalance.

I agree with you that the country has made progress, but how much of that of that is a result of the fact that the country has grown more diverse? Anyways I’m not going to belabor the point.

And I don’t see Trump as an aberration at all. George Wallace, David Duke, Nixon are just some of the examples of politicians that have used racial grievances for political means. Donald Trump is just the latest iteration. The inability to have a public and fact based discourse about race is why another Donald Trump will occur somewhere in the future. At this point we have members of the media that can’t even state plainly that Trump is a racist despite mountains of evidence. They still couch Trumps win in terms of “economic anxiety” even though polling data shows the opposite. You should read up about the David Dukes campaign and how the discussion around it literally mirrors Trump.

The discussion about individual views about race takes away from the big picture which is the policies. You made a point about low level drug offences. You should research how that is tied to race and you begin to realize that a lot of what you point to as government inefficiencies can’t be separated from the racial component. Systemic racism is a disease the needs to be eradicated for the good of everyone, not just black people.

Hiring bias hasn’t changed since the late 80’s.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/18/16307782/study-racism-jobs

This is troubling, the black median wealth will be zero in 35 years. You should like this article since it discusses carve outs and predatory lending.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2017/09/11/median-wealth-of-black-and-latino-families-could-hit-zero-before-the-centurys-end/#42cba44050f6

[stilldropin20]

just wondering where is James Comey's outcry today regardings' D's memo? Where is Wrey and Rosenstein? Why are they not beside themselves right now like they were last week?

especially given that the minority memo actually does reveal sources and methods according to multiple sources. But the FBI is a bunch of republicans! And on trumps side!

what a joke.

[dckingsfan]

The discussion about individual views about race takes away from the big picture which is the policies. You made a point about low level drug offences. You should research how that is tied to race and you begin to realize that a lot of what you point to as government inefficiencies can’t be separated from the racial component. Systemic racism is a disease the needs to be eradicated for the good of everyone, not just black people.

Violent agreement. Both in terms of incarceration and policies in general. And that is where the focus should be...

Again back to sustainable government - our incarceration rates aren't. Add to that, we lose the GDP and related taxes which continues the destabilization of our tax base and social programs. (And the elephant in the room - the destabilization of families). Both parties were complicit in the war on crime and the war on drugs. Only now (last 10 years) are the Ds solidly flipping.

A good platform would be smart on crime vs. war on crime -- just one example. Good policy and a sustainable government platform would be something everyone could get on board with... it is just the opposite of us/them.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I don't think sustainable government is about cutting social programs - an example would be healthcare where we need to kill the cost drivers)

I agree about killing the cost drivers overall, and don't think you're into cutting social programs. I maybe didn't come up with the ideal way to word it, but cost drivers matter - I think they're probably the 2nd most important issue here. The most important issue is the balance of power power, because that power is going to tilt the financial framework moving forward. It's a battle that's being felt around the world and one that a disturbingly small amount of people are actually identifying. Nothing will be sustainable in the long run if that power imbalance doesn't get fixed.

[stilldropin20]

Here are a couple articles and studies that discuss the idea of an attack on white people, how Trump won white voters (directly ties to the idea of supporting his racism or it not being a deal breaker), how whites and non whites view racism.

http://theconversation.com/the-dangerous-belief-that-white-people-are-under-attack-88622

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/politics/blacks-white-racism-united-states-polls/index.html

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study

Has progress been made in terms of public opinion? Sure. Look at the polling stats compared to how people supported the civil rights movement vs black lives matter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/black-lives-matters-and-americas-long-history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/?utm_term=.0da3783cb3ff

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/08/how-americans-view-the-black-lives-matter-movement/

Although it’s not a tidy comparison, the amount of people that neither (approve or disapprove) on the broad subject of civil rights has grown since the 60’s. So my question is dckingsfan, did attitudes change or are people just less willing to be upfront about their beliefs on race? I think worrying about being called a racist actually takes away from being able to correctly identity racist intent and more importantly racial policies that disproportionately affect people of color.

Okay, read all the articles and the sub-links, they were informative and worth reading. But it doesn't change my opinion that the country is still going in the right direction (see the last paragraph for what did change).

I still think that the country has made good and steady progress. But, like the recent stock market correction, we are having a bit of a correction now but still headed in the right direction.

If you have just gone through the Trump debacle - it might now seem that way. Trump was able to appeal to the anger out there (and there is lots of anger). Much of that anger is due to the failing of our local/state/federal government services. It is due to unfair tax policy. And those voters wanted change - they wanted to blow up the status quo and they came out and voted. And if Hillary's campaign was half-way decent, we wouldn't be talking about Trump. And Trump vilified as many camps as he could to develop a base.

But, if you can put the Trump election aside and look at the progress from say the 60s - then it might be easier to see (or if you are old, then you experienced it).

One article that jumped out at me (and was very compelling) is the frustration with the rate with which the country is changing. And that can't be understated. The longer it takes, the more frustration there will be... An example would be those in prison for low-level drug offenses. Really? We can't take care of that?

So, I still think the country is going in the right direction (in terms of social justice). I just don't think we are going there fast enough. I worry that since this is a local/state/federal level issue - it is going to be tough to get there quickly.

And I worry that not having either party focused on sustainable government will just exacerbate the situation. See Kansas and Illinois and the federal government cutting programs due to the outlay/revenue imbalance.

I agree with you that the country has made progress, but how much of that of that is a result of the fact that the country has grown more diverse? Anyways I’m not going to belabor the point.

And I don’t see Trump as an aberration at all. George Wallace, David Duke, Nixon are just some of the examples of politicians that have used racial grievances for political means. Donald Trump is just the latest iteration. The inability to have a public and fact based discourse about race is why another Donald Trump will occur somewhere in the future. At this point we have members of the media that can’t even state plainly that Trump is a racist despite mountains of evidence. They still couch Trumps win in terms of “economic anxiety” even though polling data shows the opposite. You should read up about the David Dukes campaign and how the discussion around it literally mirrors Trump.

The discussion about individual views about race takes away from the big picture which is the policies. You made a point about low level drug offences. You should research how that is tied to race and you begin to realize that a lot of what you point to as government inefficiencies can’t be separated from the racial component. Systemic racism is a disease the needs to be eradicated for the good of everyone, not just black people.

Hiring bias hasn’t changed since the late 80’s.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/18/16307782/study-racism-jobs

This is troubling, the black median wealth will be zero in 35 years. You should like this article since it discusses carve outs and predatory lending.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2017/09/11/median-wealth-of-black-and-latino-families-could-hit-zero-before-the-centurys-end/#42cba44050f6

in regards to the bold. dont you think that there should be some underlying facts to support a claim like that...like if black unemployment numbers being worse under trump or wages getting worse for african american than say Obama. Shouldn't there be some statistic, anything you can point to where we can see it in the data?

I mean as a mixed hispanic/native american, i'm pretty sure I can at least point to some stats getting worse and the removal of dreamers etc. I wont point to those stats because I dont want my president to worry about non citizens over actual american citizen but at least i can actually point to something. I'm just not seeing what you have in this first year of trump where his policies made things worse for african americans.

i wont hold my breath.

[stilldropin20]

The discussion about individual views about race takes away from the big picture which is the policies. You made a point about low level drug offences. You should research how that is tied to race and you begin to realize that a lot of what you point to as government inefficiencies can’t be separated from the racial component. Systemic racism is a disease the needs to be eradicated for the good of everyone, not just black people.

Violent agreement. Both in terms of incarceration and policies in general. And that is where the focus should be...

Again back to sustainable government - our incarceration rates aren't. Add to that, we lose the GDP and related taxes which continues the destabilization of our tax base and social programs. (And the elephant in the room - the destabilization of families). Both parties were complicit in the war on crime and the war on drugs. Only now (last 10 years) are the Ds solidly flipping.

A good platform would be smart on crime vs. war on crime -- just one example. Good policy and a sustainable government platform would be something everyone could get on board with... it is just the opposite of us/them.

yeah but where did any of this get worse under trump? I'm not seeing any increased signs of racial profiling anywhere besides enforcing immigration policy and those people targeted are MY PEOPLE and they are NOT american citizens...so even though i want to find a way to get more people that look like me here in the states, i want to do it responsibly so the people already here can continue to see their wages rise with inflation.

[dckingsfan]

[This is troubling, the black median wealth will be zero in 35 years. You should like this article since it discusses carve outs and predatory lending.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2017/09/11/median-wealth-of-black-and-latino-families-could-hit-zero-before-the-centurys-end/#42cba44050f6

Violent agreement again. And another example where both parties are equally complicit.

Have you seen your party agree to get rid of all deductions? Are you pissed off about this? The charitable deduction(s), various real estate deductions and interest deductions are regressive. The higher they raise the tax rates while leaving deductions in place the worse they make the situation. But all the Ds do is whine about the lowered rates - in this area - they and their base just don't get it.

BTW, it is even worse on the local level. Who does a parking ticket hurt worse?

[dckingsfan]

The discussion about individual views about race takes away from the big picture which is the policies. You made a point about low level drug offences. You should research how that is tied to race and you begin to realize that a lot of what you point to as government inefficiencies can’t be separated from the racial component. Systemic racism is a disease the needs to be eradicated for the good of everyone, not just black people.

Violent agreement. Both in terms of incarceration and policies in general. And that is where the focus should be...

Again back to sustainable government - our incarceration rates aren't. Add to that, we lose the GDP and related taxes which continues the destabilization of our tax base and social programs. (And the elephant in the room - the destabilization of families). Both parties were complicit in the war on crime and the war on drugs. Only now (last 10 years) are the Ds solidly flipping.

A good platform would be smart on crime vs. war on crime -- just one example. Good policy and a sustainable government platform would be something everyone could get on board with... it is just the opposite of us/them.

yeah but where did any of this get worse under trump? I'm not seeing any increased signs of racial profiling anywhere besides enforcing immigration policy and those people targeted are MY PEOPLE and they are NOT american citizens...so even though i want to find a way to get more people that look like me here in the states, i want to do it responsibly so the people already here can continue to see their wages rise with inflation.

Where did it get better? Did Trump come up with a fairer, less complex tax structure? No - he is complicit.

[Zonkerbl]

Trump himself is evidence that things have gotten worse. He is prima facie evidence of worsening race relations.

[stilldropin20]

[This is troubling, the black median wealth will be zero in 35 years. You should like this article since it discusses carve outs and predatory lending.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2017/09/11/median-wealth-of-black-and-latino-families-could-hit-zero-before-the-centurys-end/#42cba44050f6

Violent agreement again. And another example where both parties are equally complicit.

Have you seen your party agree to get rid of all deductions? Are you pissed off about this? The charitable deduction(s), various real estate deductions and interest deductions are regressive. The higher they raise the tax rates while leaving deductions in place the worse they make the situation. But all the Ds do is whine about the lowered rates - in this area - they and their base just don't get it.

BTW, it is even worse on the local level. Who does a parking ticket hurt worse?

predatory lending!!! dont get me started! Keep in mind im in real estate. Here's what i can absolutely assure you in regards to predatory lending:

From 1998-2007 People mostly did real estate with people they know or from their hood. and same with Mortgages. Those predators are of the same race at least 80-90% of the time in chicago. Minorities set up shop in minority neighborhoods.

Nowadays this stuff is virtual and done online and way more regulated. so much less of this, but back in the day? hah!! This one is an actual joke. It was almost strictly Minorities taking advantage of minorities!!!! and I can personally tell you that Juan Tamayo of chicago then the suburbs of chicago was the biggest predator in all of chicago. and preyed upon his own people. FBI got a hold of him. Wife left him. lost everything. and he made at least 100 million from 2004-2007 alone.

And i will add that it was also white people taking advantage of poor white people just the same with predatory lending. Middle eastern taking advantage of middle eastern. Etc. I work with everyone. and my best friend owned a title company that closed thousands of deals per year from 2001-2008.

and its at the local level in the local sub prime office where all the predatory tactics took place because people would qualify for better rates and those people would be "sold" into taking higher rates for a break on fees. Costing them tens of thousands or more. Big banks new better. they knew they couldn't get away with this as standard practice. Not the year 2000 where watch dogs were in place.

again, predatory lending is by a large a phenomenon where poor people that dont understand how it works and are too "loyal" to shop a product get preyed upon by their own "friends."

[stilldropin20]

Violent agreement. Both in terms of incarceration and policies in general. And that is where the focus should be...

Again back to sustainable government - our incarceration rates aren't. Add to that, we lose the GDP and related taxes which continues the destabilization of our tax base and social programs. (And the elephant in the room - the destabilization of families). Both parties were complicit in the war on crime and the war on drugs. Only now (last 10 years) are the Ds solidly flipping.

A good platform would be smart on crime vs. war on crime -- just one example. Good policy and a sustainable government platform would be something everyone could get on board with... it is just the opposite of us/them.

yeah but where did any of this get worse under trump? I'm not seeing any increased signs of racial profiling anywhere besides enforcing immigration policy and those people targeted are MY PEOPLE and they are NOT american citizens...so even though i want to find a way to get more people that look like me here in the states, i want to do it responsibly so the people already here can continue to see their wages rise with inflation.

Where did it get better? Did Trump come up with a fairer, less complex tax structure? No - he is complicit.

yeah but not against minorities. In fact his tax plan is "pro" poor people. and if a higher percentage of poor people are minority then his tax plan is pro minority as it doubles the standard deduction from $12 to $24 K and increased the child income credit.