Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 6

[lilfishi22]

Because we have issues developing even one. Add another super raw prospect playing in that same position and we're not doing them or ourselves any favors. I've shown before that there's only been a handful of games where Bender/Chriss have played well in the same game. How many teams have had a good track record, let alone a track record of successfully developing two raw players in the same position?

I already went over examples of this about a week ago so I don't want to get into it again, but there are plenty of them. It will be a work in process and there is a good chance both don't succeed, but I don't think it will be because they both couldn't start or whatever. They will play some together and it may not look well, but that's because they are raw.

I don't buy into "what players show in show in their second year" as much as age...I think both play a factor, but these guys, if they are going to develop, will develop in practice and in the minutes they get. I've been impressed with some things I've seen and never felt "Man, I wish this other guy wasn't here because the other guy would look better".....now perhaps if Bender started sooner he would look even better now, but you never know...

I mean you could argue the same with TJ...he didn't have another SF drafted with him but couldn't start for a couple of years and played behind Tucker and is playing well now. Would he even be better had he started day 1? Maybe? But maybe not...maybe he plays worse and doesn't work as hard to earn his time.

I think competition is good....it should bring out the best in you...if it doesn't, then you don't belong in the NBA.

And of course, I'm also about positionless basketball and think both can play in the frontcourt in the future, particularly when Bender fills out...he can play C easily with his height.

I must've missed your examples but I'm curious to know what ones they are. Then of course what you've seen from the Suns that shows we can develop these two players properly.

When we had TJ, we were focusing on developing him at that SF position. We didn't need to develop PJ because he was who he was at that point. He's a veteran, he knew his role and played his game. We didn't so much need to worry about using development resources on him. Likewise with Booker, he was the only young guy at his position who needed to be developed. Knight had already been around for almost half a decade and didn't need development resources thrown at him.

Positionless basketball is not much use here when neither guys can play their own position well let alone another one.

dremill is totally right. Most players don't live up to their expectations and the reason my talent don't live up to their potential is because they can't put it together. Every NBA player has talent, only those who can translate that talent into production stick around. Archie is a great example, the guy was super talented and shown plenty of flashes of that talent but he was never able to put it together and prove he was an NBA player.

[Christine-In-AZ]

Lebron would never come here. We are likely to have a bottom 3 record in the NBA. He wants to win now because he is old. George maybe but even that is highly unlikely. I think you are much more likely to see Lebron take a pay cut and go to OKC or Houston.

If you want to dream, hope we get the first pick and Miami continues to lose until they get into the 10ish area. Then hope somebody with the 2nd or 3rd pick wants someone at 1 (Doncic or Ayton) that we can trade down to for a lot extra (like Fultz/Tatum), then use that extra ammo from said trade and our Miami picks to move back into the top 7, thus getting Young and Bamba. It's unlikely, but more likely than us getting Lebron and George.

Young
Booker
Jackson
Bender
Bamba

with Warren, Chriss, Knight, Sauce bench, plus near max cap space in 2 consecutive offseasons (for mini-max guys), allowing us to pick up guys like Gordon or Capela if needed, or save it all for a supermax the following offseason.

So again-
What would be your hot take thought on a James, Booker, George, Warren, Jackson, Bender, Chriss, (solid vet, mid-level FA) Daniels, Canaan, Len, Reed, Ulis Suns '18-'19 team?

[nevetsov]

^ Awful waste of a season. Can't have a cohesive unit when your 5 best players are all natural wings.

[AtheJ415]

Archie was not super talented. He was super athletic. There's a difference. He had 0 touch. Chriss and Bender have touch out to 3. That is rare for their size. Not every talented player ends up good, but not every player we have has development issues. Jackson has improved immensely in a short period of time. Booker has developed very well. Even Len has improved though he has not become what we had hoped. Warren has improved. Bender and Chriss have improved, it is just a slow process. Neither can even drink yet. Klay Thompson in college was not exactly setting the world on fire at the same age. I know not every pick will pan out, but it's not as if the Suns are somehow worse at development than other teams (aside from the IQ aspect under Watson). Every team has hits and misses, and every pick is likely to not be a star unless the top pick, so it's an easy argument to make. I get confused why that is everyone's expectation. Bender was supposed to be an ultra role/utility guy from when he was drafted. He is entirely on pace to be that. I would say Jackson is the only high pick we can really put star expectation on because he was in a good draft and he was the former #1 player of it.

Realistically, it is probably around age 23 or so that our regular players/non-stars will actually become what would be called "Good" in today's NBA. The nice thing abou them though are that we can see that development and plan accordingly while they are underpaid rookie contract players, so that we have real value when we do get another star to pair with Booker.

[AtheJ415]

Lebron would never come here. We are likely to have a bottom 3 record in the NBA. He wants to win now because he is old. George maybe but even that is highly unlikely. I think you are much more likely to see Lebron take a pay cut and go to OKC or Houston.

If you want to dream, hope we get the first pick and Miami continues to lose until they get into the 10ish area. Then hope somebody with the 2nd or 3rd pick wants someone at 1 (Doncic or Ayton) that we can trade down to for a lot extra (like Fultz/Tatum), then use that extra ammo from said trade and our Miami picks to move back into the top 7, thus getting Young and Bamba. It's unlikely, but more likely than us getting Lebron and George.

Young
Booker
Jackson
Bender
Bamba

with Warren, Chriss, Knight, Sauce bench, plus near max cap space in 2 consecutive offseasons (for mini-max guys), allowing us to pick up guys like Gordon or Capela if needed, or save it all for a supermax the following offseason.

So again-
What would be your hot take thought on a James, Booker, George, Warren, Jackson, Bender, Chriss, (solid vet, mid-level FA) Daniels, Canaan, Len, Reed, Ulis Suns '18-'19 team?

My hot take would be that it would not be even remotely possible, and even if it happened, it is a big step behind Houston and GSW, and I am not sure it would be better than the current Thunder given the role players who are vets on OKC. You realize even moving off those deals we could not max both right? They are supermax eligible if I'm not mistaken,meaning paying each $30+ mil.

[Christine-In-AZ]

^ Awful waste of a season. Can't have a cohesive unit when your 5 best players are all natural wings.

point accepted

[Christine-In-AZ]

If the Suns added Lebron James and Paul George to the existing roster, Phoenix is still not even a contender next year

...we need a miracle for anything "large" to happen within 5 or 7 years.

(very large sigh)

[Christine-In-AZ]

keep sucking and drafting and hoping you strike gold two or three times I guess

[DirtyDez]

Milwaukee is trending up and Giannis is under contract for 4 more years. If there's any pick to waste if on seeing if Bradley/Smart/etc could fit going forward over the last few months it's that one.

[blee732]

Me watching the Heat drop their 5th straight....

[Stix]

Wouldn't mind trading for Avery Bradley. He's the type of player you put next to Booker. He can play point, hit the 3, and is a solid defender. He is injury prone though, but maybe our med staff can help him stay on the court more.

Not sold on drafting Trae Young, pairing him with Booker would make for a backcourt really lacking in the defense department. But if that's who we end up drafting, it would be fun to watch offensively, like Splash Bros.

I think McD is going to push hard and try to sign Cousins during the offseason. Try to sell him on Booker/Cousins would be the next Kobe/Shaq.

[AtheJ415]

Avery Bradley has not been good in a long time. It would be a more expensive version and worse version of Houston with Harden and Bev. I'd much prefer Trae Young.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Don't like spending half our available cap on someone who will never be an All-Star.

[Revived]

If there was a movie with a title "The suspicious GM", Mc Donough will earn an Oscar.

He acts like he wants to fix Boston Celtics, his former team, rather than Phoenix Suns.

I cant stand that Monroe has no trade value , in this market, when there is plenty of teams that they are looking for a C, with so many injuries. It is like we buyout the value of Bledsoe. There is no make sense.

Here is the list of the "gifts" to Boston, 2 of them i think is from McDonough

-1st round unprotected 2018 pick from Lakers, with the bad trade of Brandon Knight ( not directly to Boston, via 76ers)
-Isiah Thomas. An all star player, who brings Kyrie in Boston. hmmmm
-Monroe free contract.

----------------------------------------------------

As for coach , we need one who can train young players into contenders, to inspire them. Not any more lost seasons, with bad moves in this team.

(sorry for my english)

In 2014-15 We also traded the Wolves (top 12 protected) pick to the Celtics in exchange for Brandon Wright, who left us after that season. The pick converted into two 2nd round picks in 2016 and 2017 though. Those picks turned into Rade Zagorac and Semi Ojeleye. Though, the very next pick in 2016 was actually Malcolm Brogdon, so we could have kept the pick and taken Ulis and Brogdon then...

Ojeleye may turn out as a decent player as well.

And also, after last night’s “game”, I hope everyone agrees that the Suns need to at least conduct other interviews with candidates rather than blindly trusting Triano.

PS nobody should care if Booker endorses Triano...good players endorse bad coaches all the time. Steph Curry endorsed Warriors to keep Mark Jackson, LeBron did the same for Mike Brown, Phillip Rivers set the Chargers back by two years by doing this for Norv Turner, Karl Anthony Towns & Andrew Wiggins endorsed Sam Mitchell, Kevin Durant and Russel Westbrook endorsed Scott Brooks and so on and so forth.

Suns management should give it less than an ounce of a care what the players think of Triano and the management should instead do their own diligence.

[thamadkant]

Even if Suns get Trae Young. They still need a veteran PG to show him the ropes. Unless the Suns can have a ex PG coach who can mentor him. Hence you still need someone to give him pointers.


I would personally trade one of Chriss or Bender... Draft Bagley. Sign Lin and have him and Knight run the point next to Booker.

[Mulhollanddrive]

ESPN radio estimates Clint Capela is looking at $12-18m in Free Agency.

[NavLDO]

Spoiler:

Somewhat, but I guess it depends on what you go by. The Stepien, which I find the most useful has him in the 4th tier, at 8th overall, and that is with 5 analysts ranking them and they kind of take an avg of their individual rankings of where the guys land. It seems tankathon has him at 6th now, but they kind of have rankings mixed with needs, and currently the Bulls are currently 6th, so they give him to the Bulls...but sometimes Bagley is higher and Bamba goes 7th. Tankathon has most teams taking Doncic 1st overall in sims but they have us and the Bulls taking Ayton 1st, based on them thinking we both need centers...if we miss him they always give us Young. Not sure who comes up with those rankings though.

Givony talked about Bamba being possibly top 3 the other day, or at least said he is intriguing if like Gobert, but I don't know if I trust him much.

Cole Zwicker, the main writer for The Stepien also said, on a podcast that NBA personnel love Bagley and they don't see him dropping 3, even though they have him in tier 4 in their rankings at 6 overall.

For their tiers and rankings, go here.. https://www.thestepien.com/2018-draft-rankings/
It also gives other info like offensive and defensive roles and high end/low end (or projected ceiling and floor roles)...their stuff is good with a lot of good write ups.

I like his rankings, but think he get's TOO specific up top with his 'Tiers'...To me, that's like saying. Lebron is Tier 1, Durant is Tier 2, Curry and Westbrook are Tier 3, so on and so forth (I'm just using names...don't quote me on thinking that I think Westbrook is = to Curry, or Durant is not as good as Lebron, or whatever). He has Trae Young as Tier 2...what Tier was Trae Young 3 months ago?? He didn't all of a sudden pass Porter Jr., Bagley, Ayton, and Bamba by like they were standing still. A lot of questions still remain about Young's athleticism for the NBA; that's not a clear-cut Tier-by-myself player, IMO.

But other than that, I like how he looks at talent more than what 'class' the player is in...meaning Mikal Bridges being 7th even though he's a Junior. These players should be drafted on merit, as well, nit just the extra 2 years 'upside' a team MIGHT get out of them...as we are seeing now with Bender and Chriss. Chriss should've stayed for another 2 years...no doubt in my mind.

But anyway, if the site was a more finished product, I'd appreciate it more, but I do like that it's a bit different than the rest, and seemingly...seemingly...more basketball-knowledgeable than some of the others. I don't know for sure.

Well the tier system basically asks, is there what we consider a clear cut BPA....so they are saying in the aggregate, yes, it's Doncic. Which, in most places I read or listen to, that seems to be the case other than nbadraft.net

Tiers only exist if they see no real separation and where you just not go BPA but for need. Most draft sites in the past that I've looked at would only have 1 or 2 guys, in the top tier, and maybe a couple in the next. Last year there was less separation but the previous year I think Simmons was in tier 1 and Ingram was in tier 2 and then there was a bigger tier 3 with 6 guys.

Anyway, this is based on the aggregate of 5 voters....for example, all five put Doncic in tier 1...4 of them alone and tier 1 and one had him tied with Trae.

The second tier with Young....four voters had him in tier 2 and one in tier 1, but one of the voters had Young ranked third overall, and one fourth overall.

If you look at tier 3, though, most of the voters would have put them in tier 2, but one voter would have put each in tier 3 so I guess that's their criteria.

However, in tier 4, you will see on a couple of occasions, someone would get a tier 5 vote, but if so, they would also have a tier 3 vote...though it does look here that Bagley should have been in tier 3...but to see how their individual voting goes.

https://www.thestepien.com/individual-rankings/

Oh, I get how they get there, but I think it's flawed, is all. I also don't think NBADraft.net is the only site that doesn't think Doncic is a 'Slam Dunk'; a few other sites I've looked at have Bagley or Ayton as the clear number #1, actually...

Bagley
NBA Draft Room
thegamehaus
TheSportsBank

Ayton
NBADraft.net
draftsite.com
NBAScoutingLive
NBADraftjunkies

...and granted, most of these are not sites that follow the NBA draft/NCAA basketball exclusively year round, but point is, there is a lot of dichotomy at the top this year, and TBH, if Michael Porter Jr had not gotten injured, I doubt he would've relinquished the top spot at all this year, because he was the clear-cut, preseason, pre-injury #1 prospect.

[Djedefre]

Another 40+ loss. Yeah, we’re steady improving under Triano. Sign him asap.

[Saberestar]

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[NavLDO]

Bender at center is a no brainer for me.
Get him strength training in the off season and he can become a good modern center down the line. Not the athletic explosive type... But the one that stretches defense out and then drives pass slower big men.... With good passing skills too... A Jokic type.... No way near as good obviously but same mould... Skilled, good vision and passing... Mobile.

Why can't he be as good or better, with 25 lbs increase in muscle weight...most in the lower half.

Bender has unique bbiq ability, coupled with length, and obvious shooting ability. IMO, there's no reason he couldn't be as good, or better, than Jokic, if he gets stronger, and more aggressive on the boards.

Jokic is nearly 3 years older, has had the opportunity to start exclusively, which Bender has not, and is surrounded by better talent overall, and is in a much more stable environment.

Dude...get real.

I'm not saying it's going to happen; I'm saying if that was McD's/*2018 Head Coach's plans for Bender, there is no reason it couldn't happen.

Bender lacks assertiveness/confidence, and about 30 lbs.

He also lacks the same opportunity Jokic had. Bender is 2/3 the way through his 2nd season, and has played a whopping 127 minutes more than Jokic did his Rookie season. Bender has started 11 games vs Jokic who had started 55 in his Rookie season, and has 159 starts all-together, but I'm sure you think that doesn't matter, right?

Why don't we see where Bender is at after he has 159 starts, and 5261 minutes played vs 11 starts and 1860 minutes played, before we answer with the ever so insightful...

"Dude...get real."

Bender needs the proper development, and a fair chance to play with 'real' starters for a couple of seasons before he is labeled as some one who can't be as good as Jokic, because I think he'll likely be better, if McD and the Coaches pull their head out of their @ss.

Bender is taller, Longer, and most importantly, quicker. He can defend any position. Jokic is relegated to defending the hoop, and that's it. They are both high bbiq guys, so that, coupled with opportunity, and good old fashioned 'want-to', has placed Jokic where he is; but don't mistake Bender's lack of opportunity and confidence as an inability to match, or even surpass, Jokic as a quality NBA player.