The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[theo42]

I'm a bit sick of the urination contest between Mitchell and Simmons stans. Both are beasts and both are worthy of ROTY. Yes, both also have holes in their games but for rookies they are both sensational.

Yup, I'm all fine with fans posting statlines and videos, but pissing on the other to make yours look better is childish.

TBH I'm over 76er fans running down Mitchell to try and somehow boost Simmons - I can understand your own fans sticking up for your player, and Simmons doesn't need it either. I guess the reason its going on is our fans are somehow threatened by Mitchell which is a big compliment to him and his season. Comparisons are fine but at least be fair on both sides.

I'm not running him down, I love him as a player and wish we could have traded up for him.

Having said that, he isn't better than Ben this year or probably ever. Just another level of talent for Ben that he is just scratching the surface of.

Anyone saying otherwise just isn't being honest.

[Cappy_Smurf]

Yup, I'm all fine with fans posting statlines and videos, but pissing on the other to make yours look better is childish.

TBH I'm over 76er fans running down Mitchell to try and somehow boost Simmons - I can understand your own fans sticking up for your player, and Simmons doesn't need it either. I guess the reason its going on is our fans are somehow threatened by Mitchell which is a big compliment to him and his season. Comparisons are fine but at least be fair on both sides.

I'm not running him down, I love him as a player and wish we could have traded up for him.

Having said that, he isn't better than Ben this year or probably ever. Just another level of talent for Ben that he is just scratching the surface of.

Anyone saying otherwise just isn't being honest.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that Ben can't shoot the three and shoots free throws like he's Shaq.

Simmons isn't nearly the perfect player some are making him out to be, and Mitchell deserves every bit of recognition he's getting here. The majority of people see this as a close race and it's always funny when a loud minority feel like if they scream loud enough, their opinion will override the opinion of the majority.

[DroseReturnChi]

TBH I'm over 76er fans running down Mitchell to try and somehow boost Simmons - I can understand your own fans sticking up for your player, and Simmons doesn't need it either. I guess the reason its going on is our fans are somehow threatened by Mitchell which is a big compliment to him and his season. Comparisons are fine but at least be fair on both sides.

I'm not running him down, I love him as a player and wish we could have traded up for him.

Having said that, he isn't better than Ben this year or probably ever. Just another level of talent for Ben that he is just scratching the surface of.

Anyone saying otherwise just isn't being honest.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that Ben can't shoot the three and shoots free throws like he's Shaq.

Simmons isn't nearly the perfect player some are making him out to be, and Mitchell deserves every bit of recognition he's getting here. The majority of people see this as a close race and it's always funny when a loud minority feel like if they scream loud enough, their opinion will override the opinion of the majority.

Mitchell is showing signs of a chucker (attempting 20 shots in the last 4 games) which is probably why his stats are so inflated as a 1st option on a non-contender. If he went to Boston, or some other team where your forced to be 3rd, 4th options, I dont see him developing this much so he was fortunate to have this environment. He seems to be more Lou Williams than Wade projected.

But I am not really high on Simmons either since he basically redshirted the entire rookie season and pretty much exploited the NBA experience for full year. Whether he can be a superstar or not depends on his jumpshooting and he might never improve as a respectable shooter the opponents leave him open. Still, I have to give Simmons the upper hand since he has time to improve.

[theo42]

I'm not running him down, I love him as a player and wish we could have traded up for him.

Having said that, he isn't better than Ben this year or probably ever. Just another level of talent for Ben that he is just scratching the surface of.

Anyone saying otherwise just isn't being honest.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that Ben can't shoot the three and shoots free throws like he's Shaq.

Simmons isn't nearly the perfect player some are making him out to be, and Mitchell deserves every bit of recognition he's getting here. The majority of people see this as a close race and it's always funny when a loud minority feel like if they scream loud enough, their opinion will override the opinion of the majority.

Mitchell is showing signs of a chucker (attempting 20 shots in the last 4 games) which is probably why his stats are so inflated as a 1st option on a non-contender. If he went to Boston, or some other team where your forced to be 3rd, 4th options, I dont see him developing this much so he was fortunate to have this environment. He seems to be more Lou Williams than Wade projected.

But I am not really high on Simmons either since he basically redshirted the entire rookie season and pretty much exploited the NBA experience for full year. Whether he can be a superstar or not depends on his jumpshooting and he might never improve as a respectable shooter the opponents leave him open. Still, I have to give Simmons the upper hand since he has time to improve.

Exploited the system with a serious injury that could have ruined his career?

ok. Sitting and watching and not being able to practice is now exploiting. I guess Blake Griffen also expoited the system when he missed his rookie year too?

[theo42]

TBH I'm over 76er fans running down Mitchell to try and somehow boost Simmons - I can understand your own fans sticking up for your player, and Simmons doesn't need it either. I guess the reason its going on is our fans are somehow threatened by Mitchell which is a big compliment to him and his season. Comparisons are fine but at least be fair on both sides.

I'm not running him down, I love him as a player and wish we could have traded up for him.

Having said that, he isn't better than Ben this year or probably ever. Just another level of talent for Ben that he is just scratching the surface of.

Anyone saying otherwise just isn't being honest.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that Ben can't shoot the three and shoots free throws like he's Shaq.

Simmons isn't nearly the perfect player some are making him out to be, and Mitchell deserves every bit of recognition he's getting here. The majority of people see this as a close race and it's always funny when a loud minority feel like if they scream loud enough, their opinion will override the opinion of the majority.

Who is ignoring it?

Does anyone in the league do everything else that Simmons does at his size and speed? NOPE.

Let's stop with this, there is no comparison.

[mtron929]

TBH I'm over 76er fans running down Mitchell to try and somehow boost Simmons - I can understand your own fans sticking up for your player, and Simmons doesn't need it either. I guess the reason its going on is our fans are somehow threatened by Mitchell which is a big compliment to him and his season. Comparisons are fine but at least be fair on both sides.

I'm not running him down, I love him as a player and wish we could have traded up for him.

Having said that, he isn't better than Ben this year or probably ever. Just another level of talent for Ben that he is just scratching the surface of.

Anyone saying otherwise just isn't being honest.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that Ben can't shoot the three and shoots free throws like he's Shaq.

Simmons isn't nearly the perfect player some are making him out to be, and Mitchell deserves every bit of recognition he's getting here. The majority of people see this as a close race and it's always funny when a loud minority feel like if they scream loud enough, their opinion will override the opinion of the majority.

Majority of people do NOT see this as a close race given that Simmons is still the overwhelming betting favorite. These "lines" give us the best indication on how the majority of people are feeling as opposed to a RealGM poll or posts from few loud minorities (as you put it).

[Kolkmania]

Simmons with 12 steals, 6 blocks and +52 in this incredibly important 4 game winning streak, he's doing so many valuable things on the court. Brett Brown is more often staggering Ben and Joel to have a competitive lineup on the court all game.

[theo42]

Simmons with 12 steals, 6 blocks and +52 in this incredibly important 4 game winning streak, he's doing so many valuable things on the court. Brett Brown is more often staggering Ben and Joel to have a competitive lineup on the court all game.

I am getting more and more impressed with Ben as the season goes. He has such a high bb iq and the stuff he does on the court is just amazing.

I like how he is now posting more aggressively and taking it to the hole more aggressively. These were things I did not like earlier in the srason.

AND...his free throw from Jan to today have been at a .63 clip, so he is improving there too.

[HurricaneKid]

Simmons with 12 steals, 6 blocks and +52 in this incredibly important 4 game winning streak, he's doing so many valuable things on the court. Brett Brown is more often staggering Ben and Joel to have a competitive lineup on the court all game.

And Mitchell with 11 points in the final 5 minutes to beat the Spurs in this incredibly important 10 game winning streak.

How many guys would have won RoY had they played last year?

[Cappy_Smurf]

Majority of people do NOT see this as a close race given that Simmons is still the overwhelming betting favorite. These "lines" give us the best indication on how the majority of people are feeling as opposed to a RealGM poll or posts from few loud minorities (as you put it).

Yep, loud minority just keeps shouting this as if people can't see for themselves where the polls are. Shouting it more and more doesn't make it any less of a lie.

If you go back to the beginning of the season, Ben Simmons was the overwhelming favorite, but any poll that is kept up to date like realgm's has this a close race. Don't like realgm's? Here is another one.

https://www.ranker.com/list/nba-rookie-of-the-year-2018-predictions/ranker-nba

As for Simmons being an overwhelming betting favorite, that again was true at the beginning of the season, but has gotten a lot closer as the season goes on. He is still the favorite, but not by nearly the margin he was early.

I think some people must be reading a lot of old articles on the ROTY conversation, if they think Simmons is the overwhelming favorite. Best advice I can give is if Lonzo Ball is being talked about as a candidate, you should probably look for more up to date information.

[Kolkmania]

Simmons with 12 steals, 6 blocks and +52 in this incredibly important 4 game winning streak, he's doing so many valuable things on the court. Brett Brown is more often staggering Ben and Joel to have a competitive lineup on the court all game.

And Mitchell with 11 points in the final 5 minutes to beat the Spurs in this incredibly important 10 game winning streak.

How many guys would have won RoY had they played last year?

His volume of scoring is really impressive, would have never guessed he would do this in his rookie season.

A bit tough to say tbh, Jayson Tatum and Kyle Kuzma are regressing, a lot can happen in the final months. But I'd guess 5/6 or so?

[loveandbeer]

FWIW, I'm a fan of neither team but I don't see how it's close between Simmons and Mitchell.

Simmons is only scoring <3 points less and actually sports a higher TS% - all while doing much more in all other facets of the game and putting up gaudier numbers than most other rookies in the history of the league. On the other hand, Mitchell's season so far is closer to OJ Mayo's than any transcendent player's.

TBH, I think only UTA fans think it's close.

Give Mitchell his props, but facts are facts.

Personally, need to see more of Mitchell. I do think he'll be a very good player - just not one on the level of Simmons, unfortunately. (Even after witnessing him absolutely torching my team not too long ago).

[bebopdeluxe]

Right now, I'd be inclined to give it to Mitchell but only because he was picked at 13 and Simmons at 1. Not exactly fair I know but it seems to me Simmons has lived up to the expectations whilst Mitchell has performed beyond expectations.

Besides, money time starts now. Things may get clearer after the ASG.

anything less than a co ROTY is a travesty if Simmons doesn't win it.

Simmons is doing things so rare that I can't even compare him to anyone. 4 steals and 3 blocks last night from the PG. No one even mentions it.

I appreciate and respect the season that Mitchell is having but - in all seriousness - this is kind of a clown argument.

PER. WS. VORP. BPM.

Virtually every major advanced metric has Simmons beating Mitchell...in some cases SMOKING him.

I appreciate those who point to Mitchell basically carrying the Jazz offense, but is that more impressive than being a team's point guard and running the offense?

The one area where Mitchell has been better is taking care of the basketball...but in areas like VORP and BPM it is frankly no contest.

Again - getting Mitchell at 13 is awesome. He looks like a future All-Star. But both the "counting" stats and the advanced stats point to Simmons. Nobody throws the phrase "generational talent" around Mitchell.

Last Saturday, after the Sixers beat the Clippers, Doc Rivers said "I was amazed with his power. You have regular speed as power. Then you have power as speed. He has both. He's going to be unbelievable." Other NBA coaches have made similar types of comments about Simmons' game. It's not just "he is a great young player" kind of comments. It is - like Embiid - comments like "whew - he's a PROBLEM" type of comments.

Don't get me wrong - the combination of "Process hating" voters and those who will hold Ben's redshirt year against him (but let the additional experience that Mitchell got playing a second year at Louisville slide) will likely factor against Ben. I am ready to see him lose the vote the same way that Saric lost the vote last season (so - how are those year 2 Brogden vs Saric advanced stats looking?)...but that's OK.

[theo42]

Majority of people do NOT see this as a close race given that Simmons is still the overwhelming betting favorite. These "lines" give us the best indication on how the majority of people are feeling as opposed to a RealGM poll or posts from few loud minorities (as you put it).

Yep, loud minority just keeps shouting this as if people can't see for themselves where the polls are. Shouting it more and more doesn't make it any less of a lie.

If you go back to the beginning of the season, Ben Simmons was the overwhelming favorite, but any poll that is kept up to date like realgm's has this a close race. Don't like realgm's? Here is another one.

https://www.ranker.com/list/nba-rookie-of-the-year-2018-predictions/ranker-nba

As for Simmons being an overwhelming betting favorite, that again was true at the beginning of the season, but has gotten a lot closer as the season goes on. He is still the favorite, but not by nearly the margin he was early.

I think some people must be reading a lot of old articles on the ROTY conversation, if they think Simmons is the overwhelming favorite. Best advice I can give is if Lonzo Ball is being talked about as a candidate, you should probably look for more up to date information.

Ben Simmons:
8th in NBA in 2 pt FG%
10th in NBA in 2pt FG Attempts
4th in NBA in Assists
5th in NBA in Steals
6th in NBA in APG
7th in NBA in SPG
3rd in NBA in defensive win shares
5th in NBA in Defensive Box +/-

Donovan Mitchell

Not in top 10 in anything.


Yup, definitely looks like Mitchell is the fav...lol

[Kolkmania]

Majority of people do NOT see this as a close race given that Simmons is still the overwhelming betting favorite. These "lines" give us the best indication on how the majority of people are feeling as opposed to a RealGM poll or posts from few loud minorities (as you put it).

Yep, loud minority just keeps shouting this as if people can't see for themselves where the polls are. Shouting it more and more doesn't make it any less of a lie.

If you go back to the beginning of the season, Ben Simmons was the overwhelming favorite, but any poll that is kept up to date like realgm's has this a close race. Don't like realgm's? Here is another one.

https://www.ranker.com/list/nba-rookie-of-the-year-2018-predictions/ranker-nba

As for Simmons being an overwhelming betting favorite, that again was true at the beginning of the season, but has gotten a lot closer as the season goes on. He is still the favorite, but not by nearly the margin he was early.

I think some people must be reading a lot of old articles on the ROTY conversation, if they think Simmons is the overwhelming favorite. Best advice I can give is if Lonzo Ball is being talked about as a candidate, you should probably look for more up to date information.

I regularly check this forum, but I think you've been one of the loudest persons in this topic tbh. The general consensus here is that Donovan Mitchell is the better volume scorer, while Ben Simmons is basically superior in the other areas. Of course there are a few Simmons fan boys, but you can also choose to neglect them if their points are unsubstantiated.

Not sure how these polls are indicative to be honest, if I check the "men" mark suddenly Kyle Kuzma is the frontrunner. Not sure the voters of these kind of polls have well-reasoned motivations for their votes.

[Stoked]

Majority of people do NOT see this as a close race given that Simmons is still the overwhelming betting favorite. These "lines" give us the best indication on how the majority of people are feeling as opposed to a RealGM poll or posts from few loud minorities (as you put it).

Yep, loud minority just keeps shouting this as if people can't see for themselves where the polls are. Shouting it more and more doesn't make it any less of a lie.

If you go back to the beginning of the season, Ben Simmons was the overwhelming favorite, but any poll that is kept up to date like realgm's has this a close race. Don't like realgm's? Here is another one.

https://www.ranker.com/list/nba-rookie-of-the-year-2018-predictions/ranker-nba

As for Simmons being an overwhelming betting favorite, that again was true at the beginning of the season, but has gotten a lot closer as the season goes on. He is still the favorite, but not by nearly the margin he was early.

I think some people must be reading a lot of old articles on the ROTY conversation, if they think Simmons is the overwhelming favorite. Best advice I can give is if Lonzo Ball is being talked about as a candidate, you should probably look for more up to date information.

Ben Simmons:
8th in NBA in 2 pt FG%
10th in NBA in 2pt FG Attempts
4th in NBA in Assists
5th in NBA in Steals
6th in NBA in APG
7th in NBA in SPG
3rd in NBA in defensive win shares
5th in NBA in Defensive Box +/-

Donovan Mitchell

Not in top 10 in anything.


Yup, definitely looks like Mitchell is the fav...lol

Way to completely ignore the point when shown you’re wrong.

“Most people don’t think this is close”

Shown proof most people do.

“Well, here’s some stats!!” While you ignore the point.

Lol

[HurricaneKid]

FWIW, I'm a fan of neither team but I don't see how it's close between Simmons and Mitchell.

Simmons is only scoring <3 points less and actually sports a higher TS% - all while doing much more in all other facets of the game and putting up gaudier numbers than most other rookies in the history of the league. On the other hand, Mitchell's season so far is closer to OJ Mayo's than any transcendent player's.

TBH, I think only UTA fans think it's close.

Give Mitchell his props, but facts are facts.

Personally, need to see more of Mitchell. I do think he'll be a very good player - just not one on the level of Simmons, unfortunately. (Even after witnessing him absolutely torching my team not too long ago).

How about we take the first two weeks of the season when Mitchell was getting 12 min and rather just look at his stats since he started. He is 21/4/4 on .450 from the field, 36% from 3.

He turns the ball over too much, needs to work on his shot selection, and needs to add a little variance in speed (once he is by someone he needs to put them on his hip and slow down rather than staying at top speed). But suggesting OJ Mayo is a reasonable comp is just out of line.

Lets just drop the 21 to 20.2. Here are the players in the last 20 years to avg 20.2+ in their rookie seasons:
Duncan
LeBron
Melo
KD
Blake
Embiid

The last G to do it was AI. The last G to do it at 21 is MK. Lets stop pretending what Mitchell is doing is common. Its not. He might not win RoY, but he is going to be a special player.

[theo42]

Yep, loud minority just keeps shouting this as if people can't see for themselves where the polls are. Shouting it more and more doesn't make it any less of a lie.

If you go back to the beginning of the season, Ben Simmons was the overwhelming favorite, but any poll that is kept up to date like realgm's has this a close race. Don't like realgm's? Here is another one.

https://www.ranker.com/list/nba-rookie-of-the-year-2018-predictions/ranker-nba

As for Simmons being an overwhelming betting favorite, that again was true at the beginning of the season, but has gotten a lot closer as the season goes on. He is still the favorite, but not by nearly the margin he was early.

I think some people must be reading a lot of old articles on the ROTY conversation, if they think Simmons is the overwhelming favorite. Best advice I can give is if Lonzo Ball is being talked about as a candidate, you should probably look for more up to date information.

Ben Simmons:
8th in NBA in 2 pt FG%
10th in NBA in 2pt FG Attempts
4th in NBA in Assists
5th in NBA in Steals
6th in NBA in APG
7th in NBA in SPG
3rd in NBA in defensive win shares
5th in NBA in Defensive Box +/-

Donovan Mitchell

Not in top 10 in anything.


Yup, definitely looks like Mitchell is the fav...lol

Way to completely ignore the point when shown you’re wrong.

“Most people don’t think this is close”

Shown proof most people do.

“Well, here’s some stats!!” While you ignore the point.

Lol

No, that is the point. Delusion does not mean anything. Facts do in the end.

[loveandbeer]

FWIW, I'm a fan of neither team but I don't see how it's close between Simmons and Mitchell.

Simmons is only scoring <3 points less and actually sports a higher TS% - all while doing much more in all other facets of the game and putting up gaudier numbers than most other rookies in the history of the league. On the other hand, Mitchell's season so far is closer to OJ Mayo's than any transcendent player's.

TBH, I think only UTA fans think it's close.

Give Mitchell his props, but facts are facts.

Personally, need to see more of Mitchell. I do think he'll be a very good player - just not one on the level of Simmons, unfortunately. (Even after witnessing him absolutely torching my team not too long ago).

How about we take the first two weeks of the season when Mitchell was getting 12 min and rather just look at his stats since he started. He is 21/4/4 on .450 from the field, 36% from 3.

He turns the ball over too much, needs to work on his shot selection, and needs to add a little variance in speed (once he is by someone he needs to put them on his hip and slow down rather than staying at top speed). But suggesting OJ Mayo is a reasonable comp is just out of line.

Lets just drop the 21 to 20.2. Here are the players in the last 20 years to avg 20.2+ in their rookie seasons:
Duncan
LeBron
Melo
KD
Blake
Embiid

The last G to do it was AI. The last G to do it at 21 is MK. Lets stop pretending what Mitchell is doing is common. Its not. He might not win RoY, but he is going to be a special player.

Just providing my opinion from a third party's point-of-view.

Mitchell's season so far reminds me of OJ Mayo because he too had the green light to score and was a streaky shooter (though he wasn't as "chucker-y", if you will) who many called a star in his first season because of flashy numbers.

They were also both athletic 6-3 SG/PG types that scored in similar ways. Look at their percentages, reb/assists, A/TO, shot selection, low FTA, and etc. They are remarkably similar.

That's why I'm simply saying let's pump the brakes here when saying he's a transcendent player or anything like that.

I just need to see more. I'm sorry if that upsets UTA fans, but it is what it is. It's definitely impressive what he's doing so far.

Just not on the level of Simmons right now.

[Stoked]

Ben Simmons:
8th in NBA in 2 pt FG%
10th in NBA in 2pt FG Attempts
4th in NBA in Assists
5th in NBA in Steals
6th in NBA in APG
7th in NBA in SPG
3rd in NBA in defensive win shares
5th in NBA in Defensive Box +/-

Donovan Mitchell

Not in top 10 in anything.


Yup, definitely looks like Mitchell is the fav...lol

Way to completely ignore the point when shown you’re wrong.

“Most people don’t think this is close”

Shown proof most people do.

“Well, here’s some stats!!” While you ignore the point.

Lol

No, that is the point. Delusion does not mean anything. Facts do in the end.

I agree. Like the fact that most people have this as a close race. Do you care to refute that by showing that most people do not?