Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder

[ORL_on_FIRE]

Now Orlando’s considered a team that farms good players for other teams? How all of a sudden is Payton considered a hot commodity by outsiders. He’s doing the exact same thing he did in Orlando but no one batted an eye then...

We have always been the NBA's farm team...

I’m just trying to figure out why every time it’s “Oh you won’t get back much for so and so, they have low value” then once a trade is finished “Dude what is Orlando doing they could’ve gotten back way more, so and so is good”

Just can’t win.

[PrimeThyme]

People will get over it when this organization starts to show that they are trending in a more positive direction. This new regime up to this point has shown no indication that they are beginning to do that. They've held on to vets like Elf and Vuc for the purposes of 'evaluating' them despite having 4 years of tape to do so letting both of their values decline, they took a first round pick we essentially traded Victor and Sabonis for and turned it into a soon to be second-round pick, they declined Marios option essentially giving up on a 22-year-old we put into a bad win-now environment from the get go that we had never given the proper development time to who will now likely walk in free agency, and now with holding on two all of our vets are likely to be once again picking in the 7-8 pick range instead of the top 3 range just like the last 4 years.

It's really easy to compare this regime to the last when they are doing the majority of the same things. In fairness to Weham, I feel this is because our problems run deeper than just general management. This starts with ownership and Alex Martins. When Alex Martins took on a bigger role after the dwightmare this is when our problems started. We didn't have the ability to stick to a proper rebuild and give our young guys the proper development and environment they needed and are in the position we are in now because of it.

There is a reason that many of us felt that Elfrid would go on to Phoenix and be put in a much better position and have more success than he did here. We have struggled mightily with player development this rebuild, and I just don't see that ending anytime soon. The same thing will likely happen with Mario and AG. AG, Elf, Mario, and Dipo to a lesser extent have all received so much criticism by our fan base, but we really have to start asking ourselves why when they move onto other teams they find more success. Is it really on the players, or is it on our organization?

[drsd]

Kerr let the Warriors players coach themselves and they blew out the Suns by 48 points because they shutdown everyone else and let Payton take free open shots. Defenders sagging off Payton.... Sound familiar? Such an easy strategy, you don't even need to have a coach to tell you what to do.

An interesting point: led to there own views, NBA players collectively chose to not guard Payton. Hmm.


..

[SOUL]

Kerr let the Warriors players coach themselves and they blew out the Suns by 48 points because they shutdown everyone else and let Payton take free open shots. Defenders sagging off Payton.... Sound familiar? Such an easy strategy, you don't even need to have a coach to tell you what to do.

An interesting point: led to there own views, NBA players collectively chose to not guard Payton. Hmm.


..

It's like you both are being willfully ignorant of people pointing out what actually happened that game. Kind of annoying.

Yes, players sag off of Payton. There is no argument against that.

No, it did not happen in that game more frequently than any other player would get sagged off of. People were bodying up on Payton and Curry wasn't just randomly running around guarding other people. I feel like there are just pre-made responses or excuses against him playing good against really good defenses (Warriors, Jazz), but then people will also ding him on getting triple doubles against bad teams. There is no "winning".

Also drsd, weren't you just saying 2 months ago how PG and C were our only positions that we were solid in going into next year?

[npiper17]

There is a crazy victim theme here that almost resembles some sort of actual physical abuse, and not just being fans of a sport.

When a bad decision is made by a prior regime,it is still brought up as some kind of a point. It's not. We have a new regime now that has barely started making moves and people already bring up old trades and lump them together as if it's all the same people making these decisions.

Then we now have the "dipo is an all-star" argument. It's terrible. These guys are actually different people. They are not the same person. Therefore just because Dipo goes somewhere else, gets traded again and has now become a star this year, does not mean that every player we move will have the same thing happen. Harris is a role player. I know that is tough to accept, but he is. Nicholson and Harkless and Oquinn are bench bros. That's it. The term "blow it up" has been typed a million times by a million people and when the Magic start to do just that, people get soft about it. There is no reason for that.

Just because Elf gets traded does not mean that he will go somewhere else and develop a motor and a 3 point shot. It just doesn't.

To save time, the response is usually. "what do you expect? We have been bad for so long. This franchise can't do anything right".

Get over it. The NBA is not a sport to follow if you are this negative and morose. It rewards the patient fan, not the one who needs everything to be perfect and all trades, signings, draft picks to be nailed. Many teams that people say they envy have never even been to the Finals. We have been to 2 Finals. That's not bad at all. Sometimes you just have to drop the victim complex and support the team.

If you want to understand this perspective, go to a game and hang out with the Fat Guy. He just roots for the team, and knows as much or more about them than anyone here. He is always in a good mood and enjoys the game for what it is - entertainment.

Some great points here.

The most important one imo (and the one that is driving people away from this board) is certain people’s inability to split basketball administrations and therefore give the new regime the same leeway Hennigan and co had five and a half years ago.

[MagicStarwipe]

People are still ignorant to the issues that held Elfrid (and the team) back here. Doesn't matter, I'm enjoying seeing him play for an organisation that is putting this much trust in him. He's even taking more jumpers now. Keep making us look stupid so everyones ass here can get fired EP. It's a clown show.

[SOUL]

People are still ignorant to the issues that held Elfrid (and the team) back here. Doesn't matter, I'm enjoying seeing him play for an organisation that is putting this much trust in him. He's even taking more jumpers now. Keep making us look stupid so everyones ass here can get fired EP. It's a clown show.

Even people that don't like Elfrid could appreciate him, Oladipo, Tobias, Hezonja (possibly), etc, playing well if it means Martins will be gone from his gig. I'll give WeHam a few years before I get mad or super excited from any moves they do. The Mario thing was an obvious blunder but they weren't here when he wasn't able to get on the court after making a mistake.

[pepe1991]

I wish best luck to Elf but i still can't be mad about move . They didn't view him as future starter, had no interest in keeping him pass 2018 so why not flip him for whatever they can ?
Market for him as starter was always thin, few teams. ONe of them were Suns, and they took him.
He is 4th year player, turns 24 in few days , there is still some potential left to improve but at this point he is what he is. And in eyes of Weltman and Hammond it wasn't enough to be long term starter going forward.

[rusoopE]

Seems like the only player we gave up that didnt got better is nicholson. Even harkless is a starter and valued player my god! Feel bad for hobo ='(

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

[drsd]

Yes, players sag off of Payton. There is no argument against that.

Sounds like we are in agreement.

Also drsd, weren't you just saying 2 months ago how PG and C were our only positions that we were solid in going into next year?

I personally think it was a mistake to trade Payton. But he is gone so my mental ad emotional focus is now elsewhere.

Particularly: as neither Augustin or Mack are anywhere near starter-quality PG in the NBA, then the Magic seems certain to draft a rookie PG, and suck for another couple years as said player learns the NBA ropes (all rookie PGs are universally horrible).

Still with Payton gone, it seems fairly certain that next years starters include Fournier at his natural SG slot, Isaac at SF/PF, Gordon at PF/SF, and Vučević at C.

If the Magic does not luck out on Young (in the same draft slide that left Isaac to fall to Orlando), then I guess GM Hammond trades down to select Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. A long, defensive-minded PG does fit the mold Coach Vogel hopes for.


But can anyone state with a straight face, "I am glad Payton got traded to open a roster slot for Gilgeous-Alexander?"




Edit: I missed Sexton. I guess he is a fit with Orlando's starters. Just not really that excited about him.

..

[Revived]

Kerr let the Warriors players coach themselves and they blew out the Suns by 48 points because they shutdown everyone else and let Payton take free open shots.

Maybe Kerr should’ve let the Warriors players coach themselves against Portland too considering Lillard and the Blazers whopped that ass on Wednesday.

[tiderulz]

If the Magic does not luck out on Young (in the same draft slide that left Isaac to fall to Orlando), then I guess GM Hammond trades down to select Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. A long, defensive-minded PG does fit the mold Coach Vogel hopes for.


But can anyone state with a straight face, "I am glad Payton got traded to open a roster slot for Gilgeous-Alexander?"




Edit: I missed Sexton. I guess he is a fit with Orlando's starters. Just not really that excited about him.

..

Has Vogel actually said that is the type of PG that he wants?

[drsd]

Has Vogel actually said that is the type of PG that he wants?

Well he values defense over offense.


..

[Furinkazan]

I wish best luck to Elf but i still can't be mad about move . They didn't view him as future starter, had no interest in keeping him pass 2018 so why not flip him for whatever they can ?
Market for him as starter was always thin, few teams. ONe of them were Suns, and they took him.
He is 4th year player, turns 24 in few days , there is still some potential left to improve but at this point he is what he is. And in eyes of Weltman and Hammond it wasn't enough to be long term starter going forward.

I dont think many people are mad about the move itself.
For me personally Im pissed because we knew how this is going to end.If they traded him during last summer they would get better value maybe a late 1st rounder or something like that....but ofc no they knew better ...so they stick with him so they could trade him for nothing.brilliant.It triggers me everytime I think about it.

[NBlue]

Get over it. The NBA is not a sport to follow if you are this negative and morose. It rewards the patient fan, not the one who needs everything to be perfect and all trades, signings, draft picks to be nailed. Many teams that people say they envy have never even been to the Finals. We have been to 2 Finals. That's not bad at all. Sometimes you just have to drop the victim complex and support the team.

If you want to understand this perspective, go to a game and hang out with the Fat Guy. He just roots for the team, and knows as much or more about them than anyone here. He is always in a good mood and enjoys the game for what it is - entertainment.

We went to two finals because we won the NBA lottery 3 times and we lost that our best player immediately (or almost immediately) afterward. The NBA rewards the patient fan? Ok -- tell that to all the Knicks fans and let me know what they tell you. The NBA rewards teams with solid management and ownership. Any wonder why San Antonio has been so consistently good for so long? They have the best ownership and management combo in the business. On the other hand, saying we have a Mickey Mouse ownership and management group is truly an insult to Mickey Mouse. Thinking that the NBA rewards the "patient fan" some quality naïveté right there.

[PennytoShaq]

Thinking that the NBA rewards the "patient fan" some quality naïveté right there.

No, it's just reality.

Naive was guys like you thinking that Elf is an NBA starter. He's not. the Suns will figure that out once they keep losing games.

I understand that people are salty because they were in denial that Elf would be traded and he had no value around the league. But that's what happened and that's how it is. Blaming management and ownership won't give the guy a motor or a 3 ball. Sorry.

[p0peye]

I hoped for better return, or at least to attach a bad contract. Mismanaged asset again, but I'm not mad at giving Elfrid time to prove him self even though it probably costed us as we might have been able to get better return last offseason. Or not, for me it is done and Henny was the one who made the wrong bet.

[prizm]

People are still ignorant to the issues that held Elfrid (and the team) back here. Doesn't matter, I'm enjoying seeing him play for an organisation that is putting this much trust in him. He's even taking more jumpers now. Keep making us look stupid so everyones ass here can get fired EP. It's a clown show.

Id say the main clown on our show is vogel... the main thing you wrote on your post is trust... EP is getting the trust in his coach unlike he got in Orlando...

Look at EP's past 3 games... although losses, EP's play have been pretty good. I guarantee you his last 3 games would look nothing like that if it was in a Orlando magic jersey

[VFX]

Thinking that the NBA rewards the "patient fan" some quality naïveté right there.

I understand that people are salty because they were in denial that Elf would be traded and he had no value around the league. But that's what happened and that's how it is. Blaming management and ownership won't give the guy a motor or a 3 ball. Sorry.

Exactly.

The bigger point is that this current team, with a miscast roster and Vogel, isn’t better or worse with EP. Why then is this thread so long?

We saw enough of him to know what he is and isn’t capable of while in Orlando. If he happens to become a better player it’s because his situation has changed.

The real reason to blame management is because moves should have been made to this roster seasons ago - it didn’t work. You saw it, I saw it, we all did.

Then season after season EP’s hair trunk gets longer, his range doesn’t, and people still think we gave up on him?

[Audi]

We saw enough of him to know what he is and isn’t capable of while in Orlando. If he happens to become a better player it’s because his situation has changed.

Eh...I disagree with this. Plenty of players still break out while on the same team. It doesn't always take going to a new situation to do so, just progression over time. But time requires patience and investment - just something new management wasn't willing to give Payton. I just don't think we can say we've seen enough of a 23 year old to know what he is and isn't capable of becoming. Decisions like trading Elf for Doritos or trading Dipo for a Disney vacation for Ibaka, or not picking Mario's option - all of them are made with fingers crossed about the unknown.