The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[bebopdeluxe]

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This is a cool stat and I'm not trying to denigrate Simmons, but....

Magic Johnson averaged 21.6 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 8.6 apg, 3.4 spg, and 0.7 bpg in his second season. so that 0.2 blocks is what sets him apart from Magic. That stat is really cherry-picked.

Fair - but Simmons line is pretty ridiculous for a rookie.

[bebopdeluxe]

What do you base the assertion that "Simmons doesn't gain many points" relative to Mitchell based on defense? Huh?

Advanced stats say that it is a BLOWOUT in favor of Simmons.

DBPM:

Simmons: 3.4
Mitchell: - 0.6 (worse than all but like three of his teammates)

When you have a worse DPBM than Joe Johnson, you are in NO position to tout your defensive bonifides....right?

The problem I see is that you’re picking one advanced stat, the one that is often skewed by the players you’re asked to guard on the other team. It’s the same reason the like of Klay Thompson and Avery Bradley don’t grade out well in DPBM and Andre Drummond and Kyle Anderson are the top 2 in the league right now. It’s an imperfect stat.

Can you point to any advanced stat that tries to measure defence where Simmons isn't grading out significantly better than Mitchell? DWS, DRtg, DRPM all show Simmons as an excellent defender. It's not one isolated metric; they all say Simmons is unusually good for a rookie and rates better than Mitchell. If you don't trust advanced def stats and want to stick to the basics - steals, blocks, rebounds, deflections, loose balls - the story is the same.

I wonder if we're having trouble evaluating Simmons because he's such an unusual player. He's got the best DWS per game of any rookie since 2000; only Tatum is close, playing for a team with many more wins. Leads all players in touches in his first year. Craziest rookie season I ever expect to see.

Well-played, sir. Well played.

[michaelm]

The not a rookie narrative is nonsense.

Hating the process is a little more understandable.

Nonsense in that it won't affect the voting? Or nonsense that it shouldn't? Because Chris Webber has already stated that he wouldn't vote for him for that reason and Reggie Miller has alluded to it and that it's in his consideration as well. Those are just two that I recall off of the top of my head, I'm sure there are others.

I am strongly of the view that the rules for qualifying as a rookie are clearly laid out and had been in place for years before Simmons was a prospect of even playing in the NBA and that he qualifies as a rookie under them.

Attempts by individuals to change the rules arbritrarily and post hoc are what is nonsensical imo. Are such people going to disqualify players as rookies because they wear shorts or underwear of which they disapprove?.

I would like to see Simmons win ROTY but like others am more keen on his long term development and how great a player he becomes for the betterment of his team in regard to which winning ROTY has little bearing, again imo. Mitchell is obviously really good as well and him being made ROTY would hardly be a travesty based on current form, and he would likely have been the favourite for the award in most years displaying that form.

[MrBigShot]

It will probably affect the voting. Not enough that it will cost Simmons RoY I think, but I definitely think it will be a very close race.

I personally don't think extra time in college is comparable to time spent being able to work with NBA personnel, play against NBA level players, watch an entire season, start to build camaraderie with teammates, get acclimated to the NBA lifestyle ect...anyone who doesn't think Mitchell would perform better than he has so far this season if he got to experience what Simmons did last year is kidding themselves.

But still, the rules are laid out and that's a debate for another time. The voters shouldn't hold last year against Simmons.

[Sixersftw]

It will probably affect the voting. Not enough that it will cost Simmons RoY I think, but I definitely think it will be a very close race.

I personally don't think extra time in college is comparable to time spent being able to work with NBA personnel, play against NBA level players, watch an entire season, start to build camaraderie with teammates, get acclimated to the NBA lifestyle ect...anyone who doesn't think Mitchell would perform better than he has so far this season if he got to experience what Simmons did last year is kidding themselves.

I think you discount the fact that Simmons had a broken foot here. I understand that there is some advantage gained to being "pro-ish" but being fully ambulatory seems like an advantage too.

[Kolkmania]

It will probably affect the voting. Not enough that it will cost Simmons RoY I think, but I definitely think it will be a very close race.

I personally don't think extra time in college is comparable to time spent being able to work with NBA personnel, play against NBA level players, watch an entire season, start to build camaraderie with teammates, get acclimated to the NBA lifestyle ect...anyone who doesn't think Mitchell would perform better than he has so far this season if he got to experience what Simmons did last year is kidding themselves.

But still, the rules are laid out and that's a debate for another time. The voters shouldn't hold last year against Simmons.

People don't seem to understand that Simmons have been in a moon boot and laying on his bed for his first months when the Sixers were playing. After that he was slowly building up his conditioning and focusing on shooting drills, etc. Players who participate in full practices are available for media members, which tells us that Simmons didn't have a single full practice last year. Was it by design? Could be, which I would understand. What is the point of having him play for the last 10 games instead of joining the rest of the roster in their preseason.

So does a player really get an advantage of breaking his foot instead of being able to play in college another year? I'm certainly not as sure about is as you are.

[Cappy_Smurf]

Majority of people do NOT see this as a close race given that Simmons is still the overwhelming betting favorite.

Can we please put these lies to rest now? All indications are that this is a close race. 2 out 3 analyasts agree. Mitchell is ROY.
Dame Lillard says Mitchell is ROY
Tracy McGrady says Mitchell is ROY
Paul Pierce says if Utah makes playoffs, ROY has to be Mitchell.

Lets just stop with this made-up narrative that Simmons is a runaway favorite. It hasn't been true since early in the season, and repeating over and over won't make it true.

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[phifans]

Yeah if DM keeps chucking every game like what he has been done (20+ fga with low efficiency) to win the ROY eventually I wont be even mad at it.

I like how Simmons control his game and he knows how to impact the whole game.

[Ugly0598]

Yeah if DM keeps chucking every game like what he has been done (20+ fga with low efficiency) to win the ROY eventually I wont be even mad at it.

I would have been mad at the "DM is a chucker" posts, but he's never shot the ball as much ever in the NBA as he has these past 3 games.

[michaelm]

It will probably affect the voting. Not enough that it will cost Simmons RoY I think, but I definitely think it will be a very close race.

I personally don't think extra time in college is comparable to time spent being able to work with NBA personnel, play against NBA level players, watch an entire season, start to build camaraderie with teammates, get acclimated to the NBA lifestyle ect...anyone who doesn't think Mitchell would perform better than he has so far this season if he got to experience what Simmons did last year is kidding themselves.

But still, the rules are laid out and that's a debate for another time. The voters shouldn't hold last year against Simmons.

People don't seem to understand that Simmons have been in a moon boot and laying on his bed for his first months when the Sixers were playing. After that he was slowly building up his conditioning and focusing on shooting drills, etc. Players who participate in full practices are available for media members, which tells us that Simmons didn't have a single full practice last year. Was it by design? Could be, which I would understand. What is the point of having him play for the last 10 games instead of joining the rest of the roster in their preseason.

So does a player really get an advantage of breaking his foot instead of being able to play in college another year? I'm certainly not as sure about is as you are.

Let us see if there is an outbreak of prospective NBA players deliberately breaking their feet to delay their rookie season so they can redshirt after this season.

I can see a case for people being peeved if he was held out for the end of the season to aid a tank when fit to play as you say. He wasn't practicing as you also say however.

[michaelm]

Majority of people do NOT see this as a close race given that Simmons is still the overwhelming betting favorite.

Can we please put these lies to rest now? All indications are that this is a close race. 2 out 3 analyasts agree. Mitchell is ROY.
Dame Lillard says Mitchell is ROY
Tracy McGrady says Mitchell is ROY
Paul Pierce says if Utah makes playoffs, ROY has to be Mitchell.

Lets just stop with this made-up narrative that Simmons is a runaway favorite. It hasn't been true since early in the season, and repeating over and over won't make it true.

Watch on YouTube

It cuts both ways.

It wouldn't be a travesty if the season ended right now and Mitchell was awarded ROTY, he is very obviously extremely good.

It is hardly ridiculous for Sixers fans to consider Simmons the favourite on his whole season record though either, the Sixers' recent record is not far off Utah's and their previous record is better, and Simmons himself has just had a triple double to be instrumental in a comeback win sans Embiid by the Sixers from 24 points behind against a team in play-off contention and with a similar record.

I myself am waiting to see how the remainder of the season plays out.

[downtownpie]

One has been discussed as an all star.

The other has not.

Thats a fair indication.

No doubt there will be fireworks in the rising star game and that will shape the narative for the coming weeks.

[phifans]

Yeah if DM keeps chucking every game like what he has been done (20+ fga with low efficiency) to win the ROY eventually I wont be even mad at it.

I would have been mad at the "DM is a chucker" posts, but he's never shot the ball as much ever in the NBA as he has these past 3 games.

Thats why Im not saying he is a chucker.

But he is obviously chucking right now and no evidence showed he would stop doing so and that usually wins you ROY.

[mtron929]

Majority of people do NOT see this as a close race given that Simmons is still the overwhelming betting favorite.

Can we please put these lies to rest now? All indications are that this is a close race. 2 out 3 analyasts agree. Mitchell is ROY.
Dame Lillard says Mitchell is ROY
Tracy McGrady says Mitchell is ROY
Paul Pierce says if Utah makes playoffs, ROY has to be Mitchell.

Lets just stop with this made-up narrative that Simmons is a runaway favorite. It hasn't been true since early in the season, and repeating over and over won't make it true.

Watch on YouTube

I would much trust the current betting line than comments from individual players. These are isolated examples that you are citing whereas the betting line is the aggregate sentiments of thousands and thousands of people.

[Kolkmania]

One has been discussed as an all star.

The other has not.

Thats a fair indication.

No doubt there will be fireworks in the rising star game and that will shape the narative for the coming weeks.

No it's not since the criteria is set differently because of the different conferences, Chris Paul isn't even in the All-Star game while Goran Dragic is.

[downtownpie]

One has been discussed as an all star.

The other has not.

Thats a fair indication.

No doubt there will be fireworks in the rising star game and that will shape the narative for the coming weeks.

No it's not since the criteria is set differently because of the different conferences, Chris Paul isn't even in the All-Star game while Goran Dragic is.

f


Didnt realise CP was a rookie...

[Kolkmania]

One has been discussed as an all star.

The other has not.

Thats a fair indication.

No doubt there will be fireworks in the rising star game and that will shape the narative for the coming weeks.

No it's not since the criteria is set differently because of the different conferences, Chris Paul isn't even in the All-Star game while Goran Dragic is.

f


Didnt realise CP was a rookie...

Nor am I? Just saying that's way harder for a guard to get in the All Star conversation in the West with Curry, Harden, Paul, Westbrook, Lillard, McCollumn, Thompson, etc to compete with.

[stitches]

You people cannot be serious! Like really? REALLY??? You are going to knock Mitchell's efficiency and call him a chucker when Simmons' efficiency is .... LOWER than Mitchell's efficiency? This is ridiculous. This is telling you everything you need to know about the argument. Disingenuous at best.

Do you really need to stoop this low to prop up your player? Are you really this desperate?

[DroseReturnChi]

You people cannot be serious! Like really? REALLY??? You are going to knock Mitchell's efficiency and call him a chucker when Simmons' efficiency is .... LOWER than Mitchell's efficiency? This is ridiculous. This is telling you everything you need to know about the argument. Disingenuous at best.

Do you really need to stoop this low to prop up your player?

His last 5 game he attempted 22 shots and played 37 minutes as a rookie. I dont see any superstar potential as his stats are kind of inflated as a first option on a non-contender. Honestly, if he was drafted by Boston or GS, how many points do you think he would average? Fringe all-star potential sure. Simmons is in the similar tier as Mitchell if he doesnt improve his jumper and end up like Fultz but he has potential.

[sixerhp3]

It seems like the media and casual fans/Ben Simmons haters are allergic to facts and stats, it's quite embarrassing honestly.