Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[JWizmentality]

Even one of the bastions of Fox News and at times very candid about national issues.

“It’s astounding, isn’t it? ... We have all the resources in the world, and we can’t figure out why this happens in our country and it doesn’t happen everywhere else. Forget your political arguments, why can’t we come together as a society and say, ’We’re going to study this; we’re going to research this; we’re going to put our best and brightest together. Put them all in a room, give them funds and give them whatever they need to figure out why are our children killing each other more in the United States than anywhere else in the world?”

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/shepard-smith-florida-school-shooting-fox-news_us_5a861d25e4b05c2bcac93033

Good on Shep, but this isn't exactly rocket science. Sounds like "We need to study why most slip and falls happen in the bathroom."

[cammac]

Trump & the NRA best friends Putin are busy doing there work to poo poo the Florida shootings.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/15/1741716/-Russia-is-using-its-bot-army-to-spread-false-stories-about-the-Florida-shooting

[Jamaaliver]

On Thursday, hours before his public remarks, his son Donald Trump Jr. stoked the flames of anti-deep state fervor within the Trump base, liking a tweet from Townhall columnist Kurt Schlichter that said: “the FBI was too busy trying to undermine the president to bother with doing it’s [sic] freaking job” and track the shooter’s threats online.

Aside from a presidential proclamation lowering flags to half mast, neither [Trump] nor anyone else at the White House said anything more about the shooting after his remarks, even after the leader of a white nationalist group in Florida said the shooter had trained with its members, or after CBS News verified an Instagram account belonging to the shooter in which he set a profile picture of himself wearing a red Make America Great Again hat.

Politico


I think we can all agree this is 100% the fault of liberal democrats, ISIS and Barack Hussein Obama.




#NOACCOUNTABILITY
#NotTheRightTimeForThisConversation

[Zonkerbl]

Even one of the bastions of Fox News and at times very candid about national issues.

“It’s astounding, isn’t it? ... We have all the resources in the world, and we can’t figure out why this happens in our country and it doesn’t happen everywhere else. Forget your political arguments, why can’t we come together as a society and say, ’We’re going to study this; we’re going to research this; we’re going to put our best and brightest together. Put them all in a room, give them funds and give them whatever they need to figure out why are our children killing each other more in the United States than anywhere else in the world?”

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/shepard-smith-florida-school-shooting-fox-news_us_5a861d25e4b05c2bcac93033

What could it possibly be? Hm! So difficult to figure it out!!!

[Jamaaliver]

Florida high school shooting survivor skewers Tomi Lahren's tweet on gun control

A Florida high school student who survived Wednesday's mass shooting spoke out about the horrifying experience in response to FOX News' Tomi Lahren's comments on gun control.

Lahren, an outspoken conservative commentator, took to Twitter after the attack to voice her thoughts on the shooting, which claimed the lives of at least 17 people.

"Can the Left let the families grieve for even 24 hours before they push their anti-gun and anti-gunowner agenda?" she wrote. "My goodness. This isn't about a gun it's about another lunatic."

In response to Lahren's comments, Carly, a student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School who says she hid in a closet during the attack, shared her harrowing story on Twitter.

"I was hiding in a closet for 2 hours. It was about guns," she wrote. "You weren't there, you don't know how it felt."

"Guns give these disgusting people the ability to kill other human beings," she continued. "This IS about guns and this is about all the people who had their life abruptly ended because of guns.'

YAHOO

[Ruzious]

Even one of the bastions of Fox News and at times very candid about national issues.

“It’s astounding, isn’t it? ... We have all the resources in the world, and we can’t figure out why this happens in our country and it doesn’t happen everywhere else. Forget your political arguments, why can’t we come together as a society and say, ’We’re going to study this; we’re going to research this; we’re going to put our best and brightest together. Put them all in a room, give them funds and give them whatever they need to figure out why are our children killing each other more in the United States than anywhere else in the world?”

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/shepard-smith-florida-school-shooting-fox-news_us_5a861d25e4b05c2bcac93033

Good on Shep, but this isn't exactly rocket science. Sounds like "We need to study why most slip and falls happen in the bathroom."

Yeah, how hard is it to understand that AR-15's have been the weapon of choice in these shootings - and that people shouldn't have them? And how hard is it to understand that Trump overruled Obama restrictions making it tougher for someone with a mental illness to obtain a gun?

As Ari Berman put it: "33,000 gun deaths a year: let's make it easier to buy guns!"

As Ruz puts it: "How f'n stupid is it that we are where we are? Why doesn't everyone give a shyt?"

[JWizmentality]

Sorry, but only in a conservative mind is the answer to gun violence....wait for it.....more guns!!! We can't afford books or supplies for classrooms, but Betsy Davos thinks a gun in every teacher's hand is the discussion we need to be having.

[nate33]

[Zonkerbl]

On Thursday, hours before his public remarks, his son Donald Trump Jr. stoked the flames of anti-deep state fervor within the Trump base, liking a tweet from Townhall columnist Kurt Schlichter that said: “the FBI was too busy trying to undermine the president to bother with doing it’s [sic] freaking job” and track the shooter’s threats online.

Aside from a presidential proclamation lowering flags to half mast, neither [Trump] nor anyone else at the White House said anything more about the shooting after his remarks, even after the leader of a white nationalist group in Florida said the shooter had trained with its members, or after CBS News verified an Instagram account belonging to the shooter in which he set a profile picture of himself wearing a red Make America Great Again hat.

Politico


I think we can all agree this is 100% the fault of liberal democrats, ISIS and Barack Hussein Obama.




#NOACCOUNTABILITY
#NotTheRightTimeForThisConversation

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/entry/evidence-linking-alleged-shooter-to-white-supremacist-group-is-unraveling_us_5a860d74e4b004fc3190630c

That whole thing in red was a 4chan troll job. Don't fall for it or we'll have alt-right trolls using that as a way to deflect the conversation.

[nate33]

[Zonkerbl]

https://wildlyrationalexpectations.quora.com/The-Economics-of-Gun-Control-in-the-United-States

I insist that you read this.

[Jamaaliver]

That whole thing in red was a 4chan troll job. Don't fall for it or we'll have alt-right trolls using that as a way to deflect the conversation.

Noted.

The overall point of the post is that sides will point fingers. No changes will occur to prevent this from happening again.

And then it will happen again.

Wash.

Rinse.

Repeat.

[JWizmentality]

nate. I don't know where you are pulling that data from, but Jamaica has never instituted a gun ban. Whatever line that represents is when Jamaica instituted gun regulation, NOT A BAN. Leads me to believe the rest of that data is largely garbage if they can't even get that right.

[Zonkerbl]

What's the source of this? It differs wildly from other sources I've seen. For example:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?smid=fb-share&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F

"Skeptics of gun control sometimes point to a 2016 study. From 2000 and 2014, it found, the United States death rate by mass shooting was 1.5 per one million people. The rate was 1.7 in Switzerland and 3.4 in Finland, suggesting American mass shootings were not actually so common.

But the same study found that the United States had 133 mass shootings. Finland had only two, which killed 18 people, and Switzerland had one, which killed 14. In short, isolated incidents. So while mass shootings can happen anywhere, they are only a matter of routine in the United States."

[nate33]

https://wildlyrationalexpectations.quora.com/The-Economics-of-Gun-Control-in-the-United-States

I insist that you read this.

Comparing "gun deaths" and "gun suicides" between countries that have wildly different gun ownership rates is meaningless. Of course the U.S. will have higher rates of gun deaths and gun suicides. We have more people with guns. But for a meaningful comparison between nations, you must measure "homicides" and "suicides" without the "gun" modifier.

Here is how the U.S compares on suicides:


We are completely ordinary. We're actually on the low end of the spectrum when you factor that suicide rates are higher in richer nations.

Here is how the U.S. compares in homicides:


Not doing nearly as well. But as I've pointed out before, the homicide rate of people of European descent within the United States (i.e. whites) is 1.8 per 100,000, right in line with Europe. In the U.S. we have to deal with the fact that 12% of our population has roughly the same murder rate as sub-Saharan Africa, and 15% of our population has roughly the same (well, actually quite a bit lower) murder rate as Latin America. Those two population groups account for the higher total national homicide rate. (Unsurprisingly, the 5% of our population from East Asia happens to have the extremely low homicide rate of East Asians.)

[nate33]

nate. I don't know where you are pulling that data from, but Jamaica has never instituted a gun ban. Whatever line that represents is when Jamaica instituted gun regulation, NOT A BAN. Leads me to believe the rest of that data is largely garbage if they can't even get that right.

Splitting hairs. There was a HIGH degree of regulation of gun ownership with heavy licensing fees and a penalty of life imprisonment for illegally owning a gun. Cops could go door to door without a warrant to search for people with illegal guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Jamaica

The point isn't whether or not there was a "ban". The point is, once there was a public perception that most people were disarmed, crime went up.

[Zonkerbl]

https://wildlyrationalexpectations.quora.com/The-Economics-of-Gun-Control-in-the-United-States

I insist that you read this.

Comparing "gun deaths" and "gun suicides" between countries that have wildly different gun ownership rates is meaningless. Of course the U.S. will have higher rates of gun deaths and gun suicides. We have more people with guns. But for a meaningful comparison between nations, you must measure "homicides" and "suicides" without the "gun" modifier.

Here is how the U.S compares on suicides:


We are completely ordinary. We're actually on the low end of the spectrum when you factor that suicide rates are higher in richer nations.

Here is how the U.S. compares in homicides:


Not doing nearly as well. But as I've pointed out before, the homicide rate of people of European descent within the United States (i.e. whites) is 1.8 per 100,000, right in line with Europe. In the U.S. we have to deal with the fact that 12% of our population has roughly the same murder rate as sub-Saharan Africa, and 15% of our population has roughly the same (well, actually quite a bit lower) murder rate as Latin America. Those two population groups account for the higher total national homicide rate. (Unsurprisingly, the 5% of our population from East Asia happens to have the extremely low homicide rate of East Asians.)

I... see. So it's not guns that are the problem, but we have too many black people? Is that what you're saying? Just want to be clear.

Stop if I'm wrong, but wasn't the despicable murderer yesterday, the murderer who murdered 17 hs kids, "of European descent"?

Huh. Wasn't also the despicable murderer who murdered 58 people in Las Vegas white? You know, the murderer? The mass murderer?

And if memory serves the despicable multiple child murderer at Sandy Hook was white also, was he not?

You know, you're an interesting cat, Nate. Normally when I'm in the middle of copying and pasting facts and figures to make my argument and stumble across one that directly contradicts the point I'm trying to make, I stop and reconsider. But you just forge onward anyway. You gotta admire that.

[nate33]

I... see. So it's not guns that are the problem, but we have too many black people? Is that what you're saying? Just want to be clear.

Stop if I'm wrong, but wasn't the despicable murderer yesterday, the murderer who murdered 17 hs kids, "of European descent"?

Huh. Wasn't also the despicable murderer who murdered 58 people in Las Vegas white? You know, the murderer? The mass murderer?

And if memory serves the despicable multiple child murderer at Sandy Hook was white also, was he not?

C'mon Zonker. You're an economist. You're better than that. You know individual anecdotes are not the same thing as statistics. The fact that whites have a homicide rate of 1.8 instead of the higher U.S. average of 5.0 does not mean that whites are incapable of murder or mass murder. I never said any such thing.

All I'm saying is that the higher incidence of homicides in the U.S. is likely due to the higher percentage of different populations than it is due to the presence of guns.

You can see clear and obvious statistical correlations between homicide rates and percentage of black or Hispanic population. States and cities with a higher percentage of blacks or Hispanics have higher homicide rates. You see no such correlations between homicide rate and gun ownership rate. States with permissive gun laws do not have higher homicide rates than states with greater gun restriction. Likewise, in Europe, high gun ownership countries have the same homicide rate as low gun ownership countries like Germany.

[Zonkerbl]

I... see. So it's not guns that are the problem, but we have too many black people? Is that what you're saying? Just want to be clear.

Stop if I'm wrong, but wasn't the despicable murderer yesterday, the murderer who murdered 17 hs kids, "of European descent"?

Huh. Wasn't also the despicable murderer who murdered 58 people in Las Vegas white? You know, the murderer? The mass murderer?

And if memory serves the despicable multiple child murderer at Sandy Hook was white also, was he not?

C'mon Zonker. You're an economist. You're better than that. You know individual anecdotes are not the same thing as statistics. The fact that whites have a homicide rate of 1.8 instead of the higher U.S. average of 5.0 does not mean that whites are incapable of murder or mass murder. I never said any such thing.

All I'm saying is that the higher incidence of homicides in the U.S. is likely due to the higher percentage of different populations than it is due to the presence of guns.

You can see clear and obvious statistical correlations between homicide rates and percentage of black or Hispanic population. States and cities with a higher percentage of blacks or Hispanics have higher homicide rates. You see no such correlations between homicide rate and gun ownership rate. States with permissive gun laws do not have higher homicide rates than states with greater gun restriction. Likewise, in Europe, high gun ownership countries have the same homicide rate as low gun ownership countries like Germany.

Don't patronize me, Nate. I'm not as stupid as you think I am. I bring up the anecdotes because you are so hilariously, blatantly racist. You do know that you flagrantly contradicted yourself and then tried to recover by claiming it's not guns but too many black people?

Argument over. YOU. LOSE.

[nate33]

What's the source of this? It differs wildly from other sources I've seen. For example:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?smid=fb-share&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F

"Skeptics of gun control sometimes point to a 2016 study. From 2000 and 2014, it found, the United States death rate by mass shooting was 1.5 per one million people. The rate was 1.7 in Switzerland and 3.4 in Finland, suggesting American mass shootings were not actually so common.

But the same study found that the United States had 133 mass shootings. Finland had only two, which killed 18 people, and Switzerland had one, which killed 14. In short, isolated incidents. So while mass shootings can happen anywhere, they are only a matter of routine in the United States."

https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/