The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[stitches]

You people cannot be serious! Like really? REALLY??? You are going to knock Mitchell's efficiency and call him a chucker when Simmons' efficiency is .... LOWER than Mitchell's efficiency? This is ridiculous. This is telling you everything you need to know about the argument. Disingenuous at best.

Do you really need to stoop this low to prop up your player?

His last 5 game he attempted 22 shots as a rookie. I dont see any superstar potential as his stats are kind of inflated. Honestly, if he was drafted by Boston or GS, how many points do you think he would average? Fringe all-star potential sure. Simmons is in the similar tier as Mitchell if he doesnt improve his jumper and end up like Fultz but he has potential.

Let me guess... Lauri on the other hand is Dirk reincarnate? He will be 10+times all star and future hall of famer, right?

Both of your conclusions are ridiculous. Both Simmons and Mitchell will be multiple time all-stars(hopefully without any major injuries). They are both fringe all stars right now, as rookies. You need to think they will never get any better if you think this is all they will ever be.

What does it matter where Mitchell would have been if he was in Boston or GS? He is not there. And we don't even know what he would be in those situations. He can only work with what he's got and he's doing a tremendous job with his opportunity. He started training camp as third string SG for the Jazz and by game 10 of the season he was starting and by his third month he was averaging 23/4/3 on great efficiency. This is a ROOKIE! And similar things apply to the ridiculous statlines Simmons is posting, too. I don't think people realize how hard what both Simmons and Mitchell are doing this season. Those are both great rookie seasons and they signify hope for both franchises for perennial all-star type of players in the future. The hype is absolutely justified for both of them. The hype for the whole class is justified. There are multiple players of this class who will be multiple times all-stars IMO. Lauri, Tatum, Simmons, Mitchell... hell even Lonzo and Fultz if they manage to get their shots in order, DSJ ... Hell even Jackson has been showing some nice stuff lately. Isaac has been forgotten but I expect him to be pretty good too if he can avoid injuries. Fox has some electric traits too... I can keep going.

I really don't know why people need to trash other teams' rookies in order to feel better about their own.

[bebopdeluxe]

You people cannot be serious! Like really? REALLY??? You are going to knock Mitchell's efficiency and call him a chucker when Simmons' efficiency is .... LOWER than Mitchell's efficiency? This is ridiculous. This is telling you everything you need to know about the argument. Disingenuous at best.

Do you really need to stoop this low to prop up your player? Are you really this desperate?

How can supporters of Simmons be "desperate" and "stooping so low" to support him when VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE ADVANCE STAT shows a blowout for Simmons? Huh? Forget the "counting" stats - where Simmons is in the top 10 in the NBA in two major statistical catagories. Forget the "late and close" stats on NBA.com that show that Simmons has the highest net rating in the last 5 minutes of a game of any rookie (so much for the "Mitchell is a better closer" narrative). Forget the triple-doubles.

Mitchell is a volume scorer in the John Wall/Allen Iverson vein (again - as a Sixers fan, I am fine with volume scorers), who is FOURTH on his team in WS and VORP, despite being #1 in USG%...which is almost the DEFINITION of an inefficient volume scorer. Is he a key to what the Jazz are doing? Of course. Is what he is doing - scoring almost 20 ppg as a rookie (even if it is full of 6-for-21, 10-for-24 and 9-for-28 nights) - impressive? Absolutely. But in both head-to-head advanced statistical analysis, as well as relative-to-team statistical analysis (where Simmons is #1 in WS and VORP on the Sixers despite Embiid's significantly higher USG%), it simply is no contest (and I am not even going down the road of comparing them defensively).

Mitchell gets POINTZZZ...which is great. Simmons season - as a whole - is simply better, deeper, wider, stronger...by virtually every lens you look at it.

Having said that, Mitchell could still win ROY - which would be great for him and his fans. But we have Simmons - which in the long run is WAY more important to me. And, as I have said in other posts, if you asked the 28 GM's in the league not for the Jazz or Sixers which player would they choose to start a new team - Mitchell or Simmons - who would you pick, I find it very hard to believe that a majority of those GM's would pick Mitchell.

[stitches]

You people cannot be serious! Like really? REALLY??? You are going to knock Mitchell's efficiency and call him a chucker when Simmons' efficiency is .... LOWER than Mitchell's efficiency? This is ridiculous. This is telling you everything you need to know about the argument. Disingenuous at best.

Do you really need to stoop this low to prop up your player? Are you really this desperate?

How can supporters of Simmons be "desperate" and "stooping so low" to support him when VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE ADVANCE STAT shows a blowout for Simmons? Huh? Forget the "counting" stats - where Simmons is in the top 10 in the NBA in two major statistical catagories. Forget the "late and close" stats on NBA.com that show that Simmons has the highest net rating in the last 5 minutes of a game of any rookie (so much for the "Mitchell is a better closer" narrative). Forget the triple-doubles.

Mitchell is a volume scorer in the John Wall/Allen Iverson vein (again - as a Sixers fan, I am fine with volume scorers), who is FOURTH on his team in WS and VORP, despite being #1 in USG%...which is almost the DEFINITION of an inefficient volume scorer. Is he a key to what the Jazz are doing? Of course. Is what he is doing - scoring almost 20 ppg as a rookie (even if it is full of 6-for-21, 10-for-24 and 9-for-28 nights) - impressive? Absolutely. But in both head-to-head advanced statistical analysis, as well as relative-to-team statistical analysis (where Simmons is #1 in WS and VORP on the Sixers despite Embiid's significantly higher USG%), it simply is no contest.

Mitchell gets POINTZZZ...which is great. Simmons season - as a whole - is simply better, deeper, wider, stronger...by virtually every lens you look at it.

Having said that, Mitchell could still win ROY - which would be great for him and his fans. But we have Simmons - which in the long run is WAY more important to me. And, as I have said in other posts, if you asked the 28 GM's in the league not for the Jazz or Sixers which player would they choose to start a new team - Mitchell or Simmons - who would you pick, I find it very hard to believe that a majority of those GM's would pick Mitchell.

You are acting like I've said anything but superlatives for Simmons. Even as recently as few pages back I said I would not feel aggrieved if Simmons won the ROY, because he deserves it and is having an amazing season. What I will not stand for though is people using stupid arguments trying to knock Mitchell because you see... he scores more than Simmons and thus must be a chucker... even though he's scoring more efficiently than Simmons and the team actually needs him to score because we don't have any other player who can create a shot to save his life on the roster.

[jazzfan1971]

I think Donovan is doing plenty of chucking, honestly.

Love the kid, but some of those 3pt shots are probably too early in the clock. He really needs to start learning from Harden how to get to the line.

[Black Mage]

One has been discussed as an all star.

The other has not.

Thats a fair indication.

No doubt there will be fireworks in the rising star game and that will shape the narative for the coming weeks.

No it's not since the criteria is set differently because of the different conferences, Chris Paul isn't even in the All-Star game while Goran Dragic is.

Embiid rule, you miss time for injury you don't make the all star game.

[nurseryc]

You people cannot be serious! Like really? REALLY??? You are going to knock Mitchell's efficiency and call him a chucker when Simmons' efficiency is .... LOWER than Mitchell's efficiency? This is ridiculous. This is telling you everything you need to know about the argument. Disingenuous at best.

Do you really need to stoop this low to prop up your player? Are you really this desperate?

How can supporters of Simmons be "desperate" and "stooping so low" to support him when VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE ADVANCE STAT shows a blowout for Simmons? Huh? Forget the "counting" stats - where Simmons is in the top 10 in the NBA in two major statistical catagories. Forget the "late and close" stats on NBA.com that show that Simmons has the highest net rating in the last 5 minutes of a game of any rookie (so much for the "Mitchell is a better closer" narrative). Forget the triple-doubles.

Mitchell is a volume scorer in the John Wall/Allen Iverson vein (again - as a Sixers fan, I am fine with volume scorers), who is FOURTH on his team in WS and VORP, despite being #1 in USG%...which is almost the DEFINITION of an inefficient volume scorer. Is he a key to what the Jazz are doing? Of course. Is what he is doing - scoring almost 20 ppg as a rookie (even if it is full of 6-for-21, 10-for-24 and 9-for-28 nights) - impressive? Absolutely. But in both head-to-head advanced statistical analysis, as well as relative-to-team statistical analysis (where Simmons is #1 in WS and VORP on the Sixers despite Embiid's significantly higher USG%), it simply is no contest (and I am not even going down the road of comparing them defensively).

Mitchell gets POINTZZZ...which is great. Simmons season - as a whole - is simply better, deeper, wider, stronger...by virtually every lens you look at it.

Having said that, Mitchell could still win ROY - which would be great for him and his fans. But we have Simmons - which in the long run is WAY more important to me. And, as I have said in other posts, if you asked the 28 GM's in the league not for the Jazz or Sixers which player would they choose to start a new team - Mitchell or Simmons - who would you pick, I find it very hard to believe that a majority of those GM's would pick Mitchell.

Outstanding post.

[Black Mage]

So that rising Stars game just ended the Simmons or DM debate right?

[Scatocephalus]

So that rising Stars game just ended the Simmons or DM debate right?

A mini all star game? Riiiiight....

[CoreyGallagher]

So that rising Stars game just ended the Simmons or DM debate right?

A mini all star game? Riiiiight....

Green font on this forum means sarcasm. Don't ask me why, because I don't know.

[Sactowndog]

So that rising Stars game just ended the Simmons or DM debate right?

No but it points out how silly the list is above that doesn’t even have Bogdanovich on it.

[Arsenal]

If these esteemed, knowledgable, and unbiased voters can give the ROY to Malcolm Brogdon last year, they certainly can give it to Donovan Mitchell over Ben Simmons this year.

[nurseryc]

If Mitchell was this seasons number 1 pick and Simmons was picked where Mitchell was, would this even be a debate?

[phifans]

If Mitchell was this seasons number 1 pick and Simmons was picked where Mitchell was, would this even be a debate?

You got the point here. Underdog will always be a much more exciting story.

[nurseryc]

If Mitchell was this seasons number 1 pick and Simmons was picked where Mitchell was, would this even be a debate?

You got the point here. Underdog will always be a much more exciting story.

Yep, other than that, it’s really not even close other than the fact of Mitchell being picked so low, which for some makes it a better story

[cl2117]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

[bebopdeluxe]

If Mitchell was this seasons number 1 pick and Simmons was picked where Mitchell was, would this even be a debate?

Am I missing something? At least as far as I am concerned, Simmons utter statistical dominance here has ZERO to do with draft position.

Could you further explain the point you are trying to make here? Thanks.

[bebopdeluxe]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

[cl2117]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

[bebopdeluxe]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

OK - I’ll bite. Let’s have a debate - a factual, statistical debate.

Ready?

The STATISTCAL case for Simmons:

- in the overall NBA top 10 in two statistical categories (assists, steals)
- most triple-doubles by a rookie since Magic (will likely finish #2 behind Oscar Robertson)
- leads his team in both WS and VORP
- #3 of all NBA rookies in defensive rating (behind Brandon Paul and Jayson Tatum) at 101.5
- leads rookies in MPG, RBG, APG, SPG
- 2nd in PPG (Mitchell) and 5th in BPG
- tied for 6th in NBA (with Tatum) in defensive Win Shares (behind Robertson, Smart, Embiid, Gobert and Leonard)
- leads all rookies in net rating in last 5 minutes of the game

And in the one category where Mitchell is doing better (POINTZZZ), Simmons TS% is virtually the same.

I could probably continue, but I will stop there for now.

Your turn.

[cl2117]

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

OK - I’ll bite. Let’s have a debate - a factual, statistical debate.

Ready?

The STATISTCAL case for Simmons:

- in the overall NBA top 10 in two statistical categories (assists, steals)
- most triple-doubles by a rookie since Magic (will likely finish #2 behind Oscar Robertson)
- leads his team in both WS and VORP
- #3 of all NBA rookies in defensive rating (behind Brandon Paul and Jayson Tatum) at 101.5
- leads rookies in MPG, RBG, APG, SPG
- 2nd in PPG (Mitchell) and 5th in BPG
- tied for 6th in NBA (with Tatum) in defensive Win Shares (behind Robertson, Smart, Embiid, Gobert and Leonard)
- leads all rookies in net rating in last 5 minutes of the game

And in the one category where Mitchell is doing better (POINTZZZ), Simmons TS% is virtually the same.

I could probably continue, but I will stop there for now.

Your turn.

You could have just said "Yes I am one of those annoying fanboys" and saved yourself a lot of time in writing all that out.