NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball

[bwgood77]

I'm fine with either guys at #1 (although I would've liked Porter as an option). I went with Ayton mainly because it's a position of need whereas we'll have a logjam at the wings with Doncic. Not that that would stop me from drafting Doncic if he was available since I'd be more than happy to move the roster around to make a spot for him.

Yeah, Ayton is enticing, though what he does against not so great college competition isn't even in the realm of what Doncic has been doing against great competition.

I understand the need thing, but I would hate to pass on the next great thing because of it. I think you have to draft Doncic at 1 no question regardless of the type of player you need. My gut tells me McD might take Ayton ahead of him though based on most of his picks kind of being for need and current roster makeup.

I think Arizona would beat some of the Euroleague teams! They are trash man.

They lose to Colorado, SMU and NC St. I doubt they would have a prayer against the best Euroleague teams. Maybe the worst ones they would beat, so maybe you're right, but still probably not. Most top prospects that go overseas barely play.

[bwgood77]

Man this is so tough. Obviously I am no draft expert nor am I really able to assess talent. I also rarely watch college basketball, but last night I decided to watch the Arizona vs Arizona State game. Dang Ayton looks massive and athletic. But also, for being that big and athletic, he looked absolutely uninterested in playing any sort of defense, especially help defense. I know he has a ridiculous vertical and is already super tall, but I don't think he tried once to block a layup as a help defender. I don't know if I am explaining that correctly, but I can remember times where massive centers or athletic big men in the NBA come out of nowhere and swat the ball away on a shot attempt anywhere near the basket. Ayton never even attempted this (from what I saw of the game at least).

There were also times Ayton's man would be on the perimeter and a shot would go up and Ayton would just stand there and his man would sneak in and try to get the offensive board. Now, of course Ayton is talented and very, very gifted, but his apparent lapses on defense and his tendency to simply watch a shot go up and not react is somewhat concerning. I don't know if the Suns have the ability to teach him these skills/motivation (and honestly, we don't really seem to have the best track record with developing young big men recently), but it is something that actually puts Ayton behind Doncic for me, even though I think our team would be most helped by a stud big man.

Yeah, that's how he is every game. And if he isn't interested in college, I doubt it will change at the next level against far superior players. He just wants to play offense.

Last night was one of his best games though. Maybe his best.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Yeah, Ayton is enticing, though what he does against not so great college competition isn't even in the realm of what Doncic has been doing against great competition.

I understand the need thing, but I would hate to pass on the next great thing because of it. I think you have to draft Doncic at 1 no question regardless of the type of player you need. My gut tells me McD might take Ayton ahead of him though based on most of his picks kind of being for need and current roster makeup.

I think you're thinking about it the wrong way, they're both the next great thing. They just play different positions.

If AZ struggles so much to win with him, when, even not counting him, they have more talent than 95% of the teams they play, why would he be a huge difference maker for the Suns, when we have less talent than the vast majority of the teams we play?

This is a good question.

Different questions with Jackson, Jr. We know his advanced stats look great, but his PF troubles keep him off the floor. Do we only ever see him at his best, when he's fresh? Do we discount his positive impact, considering that even no matter whether he plays 12 minutes or 25, Michigan State still wins?

How much would Bagley and Carter benefit from being surrounded by shooters, as opposed to sharing the floor with each other and Bolden?

One redeeming quality for Bamba is the Fouls - he and Jackson have similar block numbers per 36, but Bamba does it without fouling. I also don't think he's anything like the stick figure Manute Bol was. He's thin, but he's not weak, and I think he can add muscle. But like Ayton, he's not winning. And on offense - what is he? He's not an NBA quality post scorer. I don't see him as an ideal roll man (maybe in time?).

So while this is a great bigs class, it's not like these players are perfect. Doncic should go #1, but of all the teams in the great ping pong battle of 2018, we're probably the worst fit. Doesn't mean we shouldn't take him.

Can Porter Jr. stay healthy and fill out? He might be best as a 4 in the NBA once he fills out. Do we really think Porter and Bender are enough on the front line?

The thing we all need to keep in mind - but, I have seen, for sure will not - is that all of these players with the exception of Doncic and maybe Young will not set the league on fire from day 1. Ayton will probably be effective right off the bat, but will he win games for us? Probably not.

[Saberestar]

Yeah, Ayton is enticing, though what he does against not so great college competition isn't even in the realm of what Doncic has been doing against great competition.

I understand the need thing, but I would hate to pass on the next great thing because of it. I think you have to draft Doncic at 1 no question regardless of the type of player you need. My gut tells me McD might take Ayton ahead of him though based on most of his picks kind of being for need and current roster makeup.

I think exactly the opposite.

McDonough loves european prospects, he has drafted already three of them (IIRM) in Len, Bogdanovic and Bender.

I think he had in his mind Doncic when he talked to Dragic a couple of months ago, trying to repair their relationship. He knows that Dragic is like a mentor for Doncic, and it is always a good thing to have him on your side.

Position is not a problem. Doncic can play PG/SG/SF.

I am almost sure that Doncic is #1 in McDonough's mind and Trae is #1 in Booker's mind.

Trae because Booker knows him? He seems to like to be the guy who wants the ball the most and to take the most shots. With Trae that might not come as easy. Though they would make each other's games SO much easier and both probably hit like 43%+ from deep and we could erase deficits and build leads in a hurry. If you love it when Booker gets hot, that type of excitement would probably double with Trae. If only Trae had someone like that next to him in college to relieve the double and triple teams.

Yeah, I think so.
I think that Book understands that we need more talent to win games next season. And Trae is the most talented player in this draft (next to Doncic).

I am not sure if this was posted...

Safe to say, Young has caught Booker’s eye thus far.

Their relationship is unique. They both actually met each other for the first time while hanging around AAU circuits before Booker was drafted by Phoenix a few months later. This was before Young began his senior year of high school.

Booker said they text back-and-forth a little bit, encouraging him to chase greatness. Young has answered the bell each time because he’s placing himself currently alongside names such as Stephen Curry and Derrick Rose, who captivated the minds of college basketball fans everywhere when each made their magical tourney run.

“He’s been playing unbelievable. He’s must-see TV right now,” Booker said of Young. “Everybody’s been tuning in and watching him. I know him a little bit personally. He’s texted me a little bit during the season so we’ve texted a little back-and-forth. Not saying, “I want you to be a Phoenix Sun,” but keep doing what you do, chase greatness. That’s what he’s doing. I’m really proud of him.

Just being around AAU circuits, things like that. Nike camps. I was on one of his teams at a Nike camp when I was entering the NBA, he was still in high school. I went back and played and I was on his team. So, ever since then, I’ve followed him through his senior year of high school. Obviously, he was a McDonald’s All-American and things like that. He ended up going to Oklahoma, wish he would've went to Kentucky, but I’m happy to see him doing what he’s doing.”

[bwgood77]

I think exactly the opposite.

McDonough loves european prospects, he has drafted already three of them (IIRM) in Len, Bogdanovic and Bender.

I think he had in his mind Doncic when he talked to Dragic a couple of months ago, trying to repair their relationship. He knows that Dragic is like a mentor for Doncic, and it is always a good thing to have him on your side.

Position is not a problem. Doncic can play PG/SG/SF.

I am almost sure that Doncic is #1 in McDonough's mind and Trae is #1 in Booker's mind.

Trae because Booker knows him? He seems to like to be the guy who wants the ball the most and to take the most shots. With Trae that might not come as easy. Though they would make each other's games SO much easier and both probably hit like 43%+ from deep and we could erase deficits and build leads in a hurry. If you love it when Booker gets hot, that type of excitement would probably double with Trae. If only Trae had someone like that next to him in college to relieve the double and triple teams.

Yeah, I think so.
I think that Book understands that we need more talent to win games next season. And Trae is the most talented player in this draft (next to Doncic).

I am not sure if this was posted...

Safe to say, Young has caught Booker’s eye thus far.

Their relationship is unique. They both actually met each other for the first time while hanging around AAU circuits before Booker was drafted by Phoenix a few months later. This was before Young began his senior year of high school.

Booker said they text back-and-forth a little bit, encouraging him to chase greatness. Young has answered the bell each time because he’s placing himself currently alongside names such as Stephen Curry and Derrick Rose, who captivated the minds of college basketball fans everywhere when each made their magical tourney run.

“He’s been playing unbelievable. He’s must-see TV right now,” Booker said of Young. “Everybody’s been tuning in and watching him. I know him a little bit personally. He’s texted me a little bit during the season so we’ve texted a little back-and-forth. Not saying, “I want you to be a Phoenix Sun,” but keep doing what you do, chase greatness. That’s what he’s doing. I’m really proud of him.

Just being around AAU circuits, things like that. Nike camps. I was on one of his teams at a Nike camp when I was entering the NBA, he was still in high school. I went back and played and I was on his team. So, ever since then, I’ve followed him through his senior year of high school. Obviously, he was a McDonald’s All-American and things like that. He ended up going to Oklahoma, wish he would've went to Kentucky, but I’m happy to see him doing what he’s doing.”

Oh yeah, that was posted...forgot about that...so you're right...he would probably be happy to have him. I remember finding the "proud" comment kind of funny, like he's his father or coach or something.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Trae because Booker knows him? He seems to like to be the guy who wants the ball the most and to take the most shots. With Trae that might not come as easy. [/b] Though they would make each other's games SO much easier and both probably hit like 43%+ from deep and we could erase deficits and build leads in a hurry. If you love it when Booker gets hot, that type of excitement would probably double with Trae. If only Trae had someone like that next to him in college to relieve the double and triple teams.

Yeah, I think so.
I think that Book understands that we need more talent to win games next season. And Trae is the most talented player in this draft (next to Doncic).

We could take Young. Imagine him coming off the bench next year behind Payton and Booker. That three man back court rotation is nice. Jackson would probably get most of the backup minutes at the 2.

Perhaps I'll revise my big board. As I mentioned elsewhere, if we're willing to throw a near-max at Capela, we don't absolutely need to draft a big... Then again, I don't know if we could clear space for him without moving down or out of the MIA draft slot.

[bwgood77]

Yeah, I think so.
I think that Book understands that we need more talent to win games next season. And Trae is the most talented player in this draft (next to Doncic).

We could take Young. Imagine him coming off the bench next year behind Payton and Booker. That three man back court rotation is nice. Jackson would probably get most of the backup minutes at the 2.

Perhaps I'll revise my big board. As I mentioned elsewhere, if we're willing to throw a near-max at Capela, we don't absolutely need to draft a big... Then again, I don't know if we could clear space for him without moving down or out of the MIA draft slot.

I doubt we throw an offer at Capela if we are going to keep Elfrid. If we waived Williams, Ulis, Reed, renounced Len and Peters we could have about $11.5 million in cap space. If we could sign Elfrid for less than his cap hold ($10 million), you can add that amount to the $11.5m (or if it's more, subtract it).

So the only ways to get there are to trade Dudley or Chandler, which would probably require attaching a first, but few teams have cap space and I doubt they want to clog it with them unless they can't sign anyone this summer.

OR, we could stretch Knight...but then he'd be hanging on our cap for 5 years. That would give us about another $10 million or so I believe.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We could take Young. Imagine him coming off the bench next year behind Payton and Booker. That three man back court rotation is nice. Jackson would probably get most of the backup minutes at the 2.

Perhaps I'll revise my big board. As I mentioned elsewhere, if we're willing to throw a near-max at Capela, we don't absolutely need to draft a big... Then again, I don't know if we could clear space for him without moving down or out of the MIA draft slot.

I doubt we throw an offer at Capella if we are going to keep Elfrid. If we waived Williams, Ulis, Reed, renounced Len and Peters we could have about $11.5 million in cap space. If we could sign Elfrid for less than his cap hold ($10 million), you can add that amount to the $11.5m (or if it's more, subtract it).

So the only ways to get there are to trade Dudley or Chandler, which would probably require attaching a first, but few teams have cap space and I doubt they want to clog it with them unless they can't sign anyone this summer.

OR, we could stretch Knight...but then he'd be hanging on our cap for 5 years. That would give us about another $10 million or so I believe.

Yeah, it gets complicated. If you extend Booker before entering 2019, don't we have a problem creating cap space the following year, when Chandler and Dudley come off the books? Could I induce JDLAW to repeat his advice for our benefit on this subject?

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We could take Young. Imagine him coming off the bench next year behind Payton and Booker. That three man back court rotation is nice. Jackson would probably get most of the backup minutes at the 2.

Perhaps I'll revise my big board. As I mentioned elsewhere, if we're willing to throw a near-max at Capela, we don't absolutely need to draft a big... Then again, I don't know if we could clear space for him without moving down or out of the MIA draft slot.

I doubt we throw an offer at Capella if we are going to keep Elfrid. If we waived Williams, Ulis, Reed, renounced Len and Peters we could have about $11.5 million in cap space. If we could sign Elfrid for less than his cap hold ($10 million), you can add that amount to the $11.5m (or if it's more, subtract it).

So the only ways to get there are to trade Dudley or Chandler, which would probably require attaching a first, but few teams have cap space and I doubt they want to clog it with them unless they can't sign anyone this summer.

OR, we could stretch Knight...but then he'd be hanging on our cap for 5 years. That would give us about another $10 million or so I believe.

Yeah, it gets complicated. If you extend Booker before entering 2019, don't we have a problem creating cap space the following year, when Chandler and Dudley come off the books? Could I induce JDLAW to repeat his advice for our benefit on this subject?

Following up before JD has time to respond, but to continue this train of thought... the cheapest solution to the center question is probably just to (1) acquire a center at the top of the draft, (2) target one other player later in the draft - probably a guard, and (3) make one or more draft day trades to either acquire a talented player or shed some cap space.

What if we traded down from 15 or so for two later firsts (perhaps by including a second rounder or two?), and used one of those picks (and a second or two?) to turn Chandler and Dudley into Deandre Jordan or... what, Nicolas Batum? Robin Lopez? Hassan Whiteside? Courtney Lee? Carmelo Anthony? Jonas Valanciunas?

On draft day, is a pick in the mid-20s enough to pawn off Chandler and Dudley to CHI for Lopez (and some change, probably, in order to narrow the $$$ benefit to us... or maybe we could sell our late seconds for straight cash for Chicago? do they care?)?

Probably easier to trade for an upgrade than it would be for us to sign one in 2018 free agency. Payton is our summer acquisition, in effect.

[bwgood77]

We could take Young. Imagine him coming off the bench next year behind Payton and Booker. That three man back court rotation is nice. Jackson would probably get most of the backup minutes at the 2.

Perhaps I'll revise my big board. As I mentioned elsewhere, if we're willing to throw a near-max at Capela, we don't absolutely need to draft a big... Then again, I don't know if we could clear space for him without moving down or out of the MIA draft slot.

I doubt we throw an offer at Capella if we are going to keep Elfrid. If we waived Williams, Ulis, Reed, renounced Len and Peters we could have about $11.5 million in cap space. If we could sign Elfrid for less than his cap hold ($10 million), you can add that amount to the $11.5m (or if it's more, subtract it).

So the only ways to get there are to trade Dudley or Chandler, which would probably require attaching a first, but few teams have cap space and I doubt they want to clog it with them unless they can't sign anyone this summer.

OR, we could stretch Knight...but then he'd be hanging on our cap for 5 years. That would give us about another $10 million or so I believe.

Yeah, it gets complicated. If you extend Booker before entering 2019, don't we have a problem creating cap space the following year, when Chandler and Dudley come off the books? Could I induce JDLAW to repeat his advice for our benefit on this subject?

I already calculated the 2019 possible space with an early Booker extension and outlined it in detail. If we don't add any other FA's other than Payton, and we pay him $9m a year, we would have something like $10 million I believe if we get rid of non guaranteed guys and that includes all the salaries for this year's first round draft picks and next year's (of course we were slotted at 4th this and next year so those could be different...but probably not much).

Then if we stretch Knight next summer (a much better option than doing it this summer because it is stretch 1 year over 3 instead of 2 over 5), then we could create over $20 million, as long as we don't have another FA signed this summer that goes into 19-20.

I detailed it out and took a while working with capulator to figure it out and even saved the link that shows it...it's in this thread from a few days ago.

[bwgood77]

I doubt we throw an offer at Capella if we are going to keep Elfrid. If we waived Williams, Ulis, Reed, renounced Len and Peters we could have about $11.5 million in cap space. If we could sign Elfrid for less than his cap hold ($10 million), you can add that amount to the $11.5m (or if it's more, subtract it).

So the only ways to get there are to trade Dudley or Chandler, which would probably require attaching a first, but few teams have cap space and I doubt they want to clog it with them unless they can't sign anyone this summer.

OR, we could stretch Knight...but then he'd be hanging on our cap for 5 years. That would give us about another $10 million or so I believe.

Yeah, it gets complicated. If you extend Booker before entering 2019, don't we have a problem creating cap space the following year, when Chandler and Dudley come off the books? Could I induce JDLAW to repeat his advice for our benefit on this subject?

Following up before JD has time to respond, but to continue this train of thought... the cheapest solution to the center question is probably just to (1) acquire a center at the top of the draft, (2) target one other player later in the draft - probably a guard, and (3) make one or more draft day trades to either acquire a talented player or shed some cap space.

What if we traded down from 15 or so for two later firsts (perhaps by including a second rounder or two?), and used one of those picks (and a second or two?) to turn Chandler and Dudley into Deandre Jordan or... what, Nicolas Batum? Robin Lopez? Hassan Whiteside? Courtney Lee? Carmelo Anthony? Jonas Valanciunas?

On draft day, is a pick in the mid-20s enough to pawn off Chandler and Dudley to CHI for Lopez (and some change, probably, in order to narrow the $$$ benefit to us... or maybe we could sell our late seconds for straight cash for Chicago? do they care?)?

Probably easier to trade for an upgrade than it would be for us to sign one in 2018 free agency. Payton is our summer acquisition, in effect.

I'd be willing to wager we will take a C with one of our two first round picks, have Williams back, and have one more year of Chandler as well as Bender playing some C. If that's not enough then we could sign a guy for one year for the MLE or something. There will be some available Cs out there looking for jobs this summer. But even without one we have a few options, particularly if we draft one.

[Mulhollanddrive]

When we were 21 points up against Charlotte if we held on we would be 7th instead of 1st.

[bwgood77]

Another thing to consider is, say we draft 3rd and Ayton and Doncic are off the board, or 4th and those two and Bagley are off the board.

Say we pass on Young and take one of the other guys and then Payton signs a max offer sheet with another team. I know that is extremely unlikely, but do you match?

[bwgood77]

When we were 21 points up against Charlotte if we held on we would be 7th instead of 1st.

Without Chandler's buzzer beater tip in against Memphis and Chriss' block to cap off a 10 pt comeback in the last 90 seconds or so against Atlanta, we'd have a little separation at the top pick.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Travis Schlenk Atlanta GM says it's an eye of the beholder draft where if you asked 10 people you'd get 6-7 different number 1's and any of them could go anywhere 1-2-3-4-5.

[Walt_Uoob]

Another thing to consider is, say we draft 3rd and Ayton and Doncic are off the board, or 4th and those two and Bagley are off the board.

Say we pass on Young and take one of the other guys and then Payton signs a max offer sheet with another team. I know that is extremely unlikely, but do you match?

No way! I like the guy so far but I don't see how you win championships while paying Elfrid Payton $25m+ per year.

In that case I stay the course. Our improvement next year might not be as big as it would have been with Payton on board, but for example Knight/Booker/Jackson/Bender/JJJ (or Porter/Bender or Bender/Bamba) with Warren, Ulis, Chandler, Chriss, maybe Canaan again off the bench is still building toward something, and losing Payton means we have less maneuvering to do to open up max cap space if desired. And hopefully we also draft a PG with one of our later picks who can become something.

[ATTL]

Another thing to consider is, say we draft 3rd and Ayton and Doncic are off the board, or 4th and those two and Bagley are off the board.

Say we pass on Young and take one of the other guys and then Payton signs a max offer sheet with another team. I know that is extremely unlikely, but do you match?

4th pick, take JJJ.
Miami pick take Shai, look for a veteran pg that won't cost 12+.
Of course no one will offer more than 10 to elf.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Recent 3 point shooting:
Doncic: 14 of 49 (28%)
Young: 7 of 39 (17%)

[Saberestar]

Travis Schlenk Atlanta GM says it's an eye of the beholder draft where if you asked 10 people you'd get 6-7 different number 1's and any of them could go anywhere 1-2-3-4-5.

Absolutely. Not clear number #1 at all. Doncic is gonna struggle a lot with the quickness and athleticism in the NBA.

[Saberestar]

Another thing to consider is, say we draft 3rd and Ayton and Doncic are off the board, or 4th and those two and Bagley are off the board.

Say we pass on Young and take one of the other guys and then Payton signs a max offer sheet with another team. I know that is extremely unlikely, but do you match?

No. That's too much.