The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Catchall]

Regarding Gobert, the Jazz's defense went from #15 to #2 when he returned from injury. (He probably deserves to be DPOY.) The offense has improved as well. Another factor for the Jazz is that Rubio has been getting buckets around the rim, something he struggled with, and that's helped the offense move.

I wouldn't say Mitchell is "carrying" the Jazz, but he's their best offensive creator and scorer late in the shot clock. He's been closing games really well and making big offensive plays in crunch time when the Jazz have really needed him. I think that's what's turning people's heads.

[robbie84]

They've both been great but Simmons is ROY.

I would also want to build my franchise around Simmons.

Both awesome players and future all stars, but Simmons is the better overall basketball player and is more impactful on winning games.

[michaelm]

They've both been great but Simmons is ROY.

I would also want to build my franchise around Simmons.

Both awesome players and future all stars, but Simmons is the better overall basketball player and is more impactful on winning games.

Depends on the rest of the year who is ROTY imo. What Utah is doing right now is very impressive to which Mitchell has been important.

I don' t think who ends up being ROTY has much to do with their eventual ceiling as players. As a Simmons partisan I would like to think he has the greater potential, but Mitchell can presumably only improve defensively and as a playmaker etc and already is a clutch shooter.

I am confident Simmons will eventually have a good enough shot to complement the rest of his game, but at this point in time I guess this can't be considered a certainty.

[Kolkmania]

It's a close race between Mitchell and Simmons.

TS% (Too close to call)
Mitchell .544
Simmons .542

PER (Advantage Simmons)
Simmons 18.5
Mitchell 17.0

Assist % (Advantage Simmons)
Simmons 33.7
Mitchell 19.3

TOV% (Advantage Mitchell)
Mitchell 12.6
Simmons 19.6

Win Shares and VORP both go to Simmons but both are plus players.

(Mitchell's 2.1 DWS is REALLY GOOD and people saying he does not defend are mind numbing idiots who do not understand actual basketball. Simmons is near elite at 3.3. BOTH players are Top 50 statistically! Clearly negates any statement about Utah's defense being all Gobert, even though Gobert is the best defender in the NBA.)

What have you done for me lately Donovan Mitchell?

Mitchell is 1 of 4 rookies in all of NBA history to record multiple 40 point games.

Mitchell has a 50 point game.

Mitchell is the first rookie to lead his team in scoring on a 10 game win streak since Wilt Freaking Chamberlain.

Donovan Mitchell is leading all rookies in scoring points. (You know, that thing you have to do more of than your opponent to win basketball games.)

Has led the Jazz to a better record today than 2017 All-Star Gordon Hayward did last year. (Read that again!)

What have you done for me lately Ben Simmons?

4th in assists

6th in steals

3rd in DWS

4th in DBPM

6 triple doubles

Mitchell doesn't have a 50 point game and didn't the Jazz win something like 51 games last year?

His scoring outbursts are absolutely fantastic to see, but if you score 40 points one game and go scoreless the next one is it really more important than scoring 20 points in both games? The leading scorer in a win streak feels really trivial to me as well, Mitchell has had some absolute stinkers in this winning streak (even missed one), what if the Jazz lost the game he was sick? It wouldn't change Mitchell performance but suddenly his ROTY campaign is less impressive?

I do think your points summarize both arguments. Mitchell scores more, about 3 PPG, and Simmons does so many other things on an elite level. The rankings you list for Simmons are for the entire NBA btw, I had to double check that because it's really crazy to me.

[Ugly0598]

Regarding Gobert, the Jazz's defense went from #15 to #2 when he returned from injury. (He probably deserves to be DPOY.) The offense has improved as well. Another factor for the Jazz is that Rubio has been getting buckets around the rim, something he struggled with, and that's helped the offense move.

I wouldn't say Mitchell is "carrying" the Jazz, but he's their best offensive creator and scorer late in the shot clock. He's been closing games really well and making big offensive plays in crunch time when the Jazz have really needed him. I think that's what's turning people's heads.

Even with injury I still think Rudy should be DPOY but that's basically going to DQ him from winning it.

[Goudelock]

In 2014-15 it was Sixers and Wolves arguing about Noel and Wiggins.

In 2015-16 It was Sixers and Lakers fans arguing about Okafor and Russell.

In 2016-17 it was Sixers and Bucks fans arguing about Embiid/Saric and Brogdon.

This year it is Sixers and Jazz fans arguing about Simmons and MItchell.

I guess that Sixers fans VS (insert random team here) over which rookie is more awesome is a yearly tradition at tis point.

[michaelm]

In 2014-15 it was Sixers and Wolves arguing about Noel and Wiggins.

In 2015-16 It was Sixers and Lakers fans arguing about Okafor and Russell.

In 2016-17 it was Sixers and Bucks fans arguing about Embiid/Saric and Brogdon.

This year it is Sixers and Jazz fans arguing about Simmons and MItchell.

I guess that Sixers fans VS (insert random team here) over which rookie is more awesome is a yearly tradition at tis point.

They are looking fairly credible where Embiid is concerned, and probably Saric as well, in retrospect.

Not so much otherwise, but then the guys who won haven’t exactly conquered all either.

Is it a not very important award?. If that is your point I tend to agree.

[CoreyGallagher]

We also argued MCW and Oladipo. Lol. Just about all of them had legitimate cases at their times, though, so I don’t feel bad about it. Meanwhile, Okafor versus Russell was just to pass the time, because Towns had that on lock.

[LordCovington33]

What have you done for me lately Donovan Mitchell?

Mitchell is 1 of 4 rookies in all of NBA history to record multiple 40 point games.

Mitchell has a 50 point game.

Mitchell is the first rookie to lead his team in scoring on a 10 game win streak since Wilt Freaking Chamberlain.

Donovan Mitchell is leading all rookies in scoring points. (You know, that thing you have to do more of than your opponent to win basketball games.)

Has led the Jazz to a better record today than 2017 All-Star Gordon Hayward did last year. (Read that again!)



What have you done for me lately Ben Simmons?

4th in assists

6th in steals

3rd in DWS

4th in DBPM

6 triple doubles

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Summary of rookies stats

Simmons
1st in rebounds, assists, steals, triple-doubles (6), double-doubles (22) for rookies
2nd in points for rookies
5th in blocks for rookies
3rd for triple-doubles for all nba players

Mitchell
1st in points for rookies
4th in steals for rookies
No double-doubles or triple-doubles to date

[Black Mage]

In 2014-15 it was Sixers and Wolves arguing about Noel and Wiggins.

In 2015-16 It was Sixers and Lakers fans arguing about Okafor and Russell.

In 2016-17 it was Sixers and Bucks fans arguing about Embiid/Saric and Brogdon.

This year it is Sixers and Jazz fans arguing about Simmons and MItchell.

I guess that Sixers fans VS (insert random team here) over which rookie is more awesome is a yearly tradition at tis point.

We know you're just salty that Ingram and Ball disappointed so much that it couldn't be Lakers vs Sixers fans 3 years running.

[CoreyGallagher]

We’re not in a position to tease while we ignore who’s name shall not be spoken. We should have had two rookies to root for this season, which we don’t..

[Sixersftw]

We’re not in a position to tease while we ignore who’s name shall not be spoken. We should have had two rookies to root for this season, which we don’t..

I don't know what you're talking about, we drafted Pasecniks knowing he was staying overseas.

[LordCovington33]

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

Ben is the only first or second year player on that list.

[Wilfried]

All the stats are very clear who should win this award.

Only people that think that high volume scoring is as important as defense and all-around play.

[APettyJ]

We’re not in a position to tease while we ignore who’s name shall not be spoken. We should have had two rookies to root for this season, which we don’t..

I don't know what you're talking about, we drafted Pasecniks knowing he was staying overseas.

I think he was talking about Bolden. Try to keep up.

[APettyJ]

Crazy thing to me is Simmons is probably a better scorer than Mitchell, whose main strength is shooting.

As someone pointed out above, these two are virtually tied in TS%, D Mitch @ .544 and Ben @ .542. This of course factors in D Mitch's superior FT%, 85.3 to Simmons' 56.5, and D Mitch's 35.4 3PP to Ben's 0. Take away the FT% factor and Ben has the higher eFG%, as well as the higher FG%. Inside ten feet Been is actually superior, at . 739(!) <4ft to .645 for Mitchell, and .409 to .345 out to ten feet. Ben has the higher assist percentage, and he ALSO has a lesser percentage of shots assisted on, meaning he creates his own shot more than Mitchell. Hence, even while Mitchell is known as the better "scorer", Ben leads in OWS and in PER, which is known to be biased towards better offensive players. This from a guy with apparently no jumpshot and very poor FT shooting.

[KqWIN]

Crazy thing to me is Simmons is probably a better scorer than Mitchell, whose main strength is shooting.

As someone pointed out above, these two are virtually tied in TS%, D Mitch @ .544 and Ben @ .542. This of course factors in D Mitch's superior FT%, 85.3 to Simmons' 56.5, and D Mitch's 35.4 3PP to Ben's 0. Take away the FT% factor and Ben has the higher eFG%, as well as the higher FG%. Inside ten feet Been is actually superior, at . 739(!) <4ft to .645 for Mitchell, and .409 to .345 out to ten feet. Ben has the higher assist percentage, and he ALSO has a lesser percentage of shots assisted on, meaning he creates his own shot more than Mitchell. Hence, even while Mitchell is known as the "better" scorer, Ben leads in OWS and in PER, which is known to be biased towards better offensive players. This from a guy with apparently no jumpshot and very poor FT shooting.

It is very interesting that Simmons comes out as the better scorer once you exclude several key components of scoring. Never thought of it that way.

[APettyJ]

It is very interesting that Simmons comes out as the better scorer once you exclude several key components of scoring. Never thought of it that way.

Ft% and 3PP aren't necessary or key components in scoring. DeAndre Jordan is a scorer, as was Shaq, but it wasn't because of their three or their free throw skills.

Simmons is responsible for more points, between his baskets and those he assists on, than Mitchell, hence the better OWS, PER, ORTG etc. If he took as many FGA as Mitchell he'd be ahead of Mitchell in TS%, maybe even ppg, seeing as how he is close to unstoppable when getting to the basket, and a large portion of his shots happen there. Leads to more scores than Mitchell, hence is the better "scorer".

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[KqWIN]

It is very interesting that Simmons comes out as the better scorer once you exclude several key components of scoring. Never thought of it that way.

Ft% and 3PP aren't necessary or key components in scoring. DeAndre Jordan is a scorer, as was Shaq, but it wasn't because of their three or their free throw skills.

Simmons is responsible for more points, between his baskets and those he assists on, than Mitchell, hence the better OWS, PER, ORTG etc. If he took as many FGA as Mitchell he'd be ahead of Mitchell in TS%, maybe even ppg, seeing as how he is close to unstoppable when getting to the basket, and a large portion of his shots happen there. Leads to more scores than Mitchell, hence is the better "scorer".

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When I think about a player’s scoring, I usually think about the player scoring the basketball. A free throw, that scores. A three pointer? That scores. A pass? That does not score.

Maybe I’m crazy, but that’s just how I see it.

[michaelm]

Crazy thing to me is Simmons is probably a better scorer than Mitchell, whose main strength is shooting.

As someone pointed out above, these two are virtually tied in TS%, D Mitch @ .544 and Ben @ .542. This of course factors in D Mitch's superior FT%, 85.3 to Simmons' 56.5, and D Mitch's 35.4 3PP to Ben's 0. Take away the FT% factor and Ben has the higher eFG%, as well as the higher FG%. Inside ten feet Been is actually superior, at . 739(!) <4ft to .645 for Mitchell, and .409 to .345 out to ten feet. Ben has the higher assist percentage, and he ALSO has a lesser percentage of shots assisted on, meaning he creates his own shot more than Mitchell. Hence, even while Mitchell is known as the "better" scorer, Ben leads in OWS and in PER, which is known to be biased towards better offensive players. This from a guy with apparently no jumpshot and very poor FT shooting.

It is very interesting that Simmons comes out as the better scorer once you exclude several key components of scoring. Never thought of it that way.

Sure, points count the same however they are scored, and when scored from free throws can and do win games, and that some of Mitchell’s PPG superiority comes from FTs cannot be discounted any more than Simmons’ height being likely a significant factor in his superiority as a rebounder. I also think an argument can be made for points scored from 3 point territory being more valuable because of tactical advantages conveyed by the threat of successful 3 point shooting.

As has been subsequently clarified the issue is whether the extra 3 points a game scored by Mitchell outweigh the benefits to his team of Simmon’s greater number of assists, or from his rebounds and defence for that matter.