Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[nate33]

Read on Twitter

lobbying is a huge issue but it isn't illegal. People need to stop conflating the two subjects. Putting bias aside, imagine if Iran was running a spy operation on US soil with the intent to help elect President Hillary Clinton. I'm guessing nobody would be calling this a nothing burger.

Israel does this constantly. How much do they fund Twitter bots and protests on U.S. soil?

[nate33]

Trump was Russia friendly since the beginning . Specifically to team up with Russia to defeat Isis.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Exactly. And this is also the reason Trump was against Obama's sanctions. It's not a quid pro quo. Its that Trump has bigger things to worry about like ending the war in Syria so more troops don't die.

Why isn't he implementing the sanctions mandated by congress(on a near unanimous vote)?

He is implementing the sanctions, albeit under the least aggressive interpretation of the mandate.

[nate33]

Read on Twitter

[I_Like_Dirt]

The notion that Russia tipped the scales in this election is so absurd. Do you realize how much foreign money goes into politics? Do you realize how much Clinton got from the Saudi's and Israel? Russia is a freaking drop in the bucket.

This is why the Trump/Russia collusion thing is properly characterized as a witch hunt.

(1) The term "witch hunt" is just a horribly misused term that really never adds anything to the discussion ever. One of the more ironic twists of fate (not specifically to your comment here) was having the term witch hunt used in the whole #metoo debate, which is flat out ridiculous given that a witch hunt was really hunting down and killing women in some of the most brutal ways possible as a means of finding a common enemy against various issues despite a lack of evidence - and by and large those issues were caused by others. Regardless, I think we can both agree that, regardless of the what the links actually are, there are pretty clear links between Trump and Putin at this point. Fair or not, this is anything but a witch hunt.

(2) I really think the whole Hillary pointing finger needs to stop at this point. It's way past that. Same goes for the Obama pointing. It's very possible to have a discussion about Trump without pointing the finger at others. And that goes for Hillary, too, where it's possible to have a discussion about her without pointing the finger at Trump (and yes, I'm aware that happens pretty much all the time as well). Constant redirection may help "win" pointless internet debates but has absolutely nothing to do with reality overall.

(3) If you look at Trump and recognize that, for whatever reason, he clearly favors Putin, and have any knowledge of post-Soviet history whatsoever, you really need to be concerned at this point in a big way if you have any relationship to reality left at this point. That doesn't mean you have to start talking about how great the Democrats are, because they aren't. But what the Democrats or Hillary are or aren't doesn't actually solve the unusual problems we see right now. Trump is showing pretty much all the signs of a flipped oligarch right now. That's concerning unless you're more into dictatorships, which Russia really is at this point. America isn't right now, but not identifying the symptoms before it's too late is extremely important. Russia didn't.

(4) I actually do think all the lobbying is a major issue and has been for some time. The reality, though, is that it's crossed a line the past few years. Lobbying was always about twisting facts, but it wasn't even about convincing voters so much as it was about giving politicians who were already bought and paid for a means to attempt to justify their actions. At this point, it's pretty well established that you can feed people whatever information you want, regardless of whether it's true or not, and they're going to believe it, and that's a big problem. And yes, it's true on both sides, absolutely, but for anyone objectively speaking, it's true on the Republican side far more than anything. And for evidence of that you really only need to look to international news sources that really don't have as much of an investment in the game. Unless you want to buy sources like Russian news, or some west African news outlets, reality is reasonably clear at this stage.

Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the whole lobbying thing to begin with, but going even further down the rabbit hole and then justifying it by citing existing problems isn't the answer.

[cammac]

Exactly. And this is also the reason Trump was against Obama's sanctions. It's not a quid pro quo. Its that Trump has bigger things to worry about like ending the war in Syria so more troops don't die.

That's why last week the Russian Wagners with Syrian & Iranian Troops attacked USA & Kurdish forces in Syria. The reality is that Obama and Allies already had ISIS on the run and as of today there is still mop up operations going on. Co-operation the only co-operation was USA warning the Syrians & Russians they were going to destroy a Syrian Airfield so they could get munitions and planes out.

There's a lot more to it than this. Obama kept bombing Assad forces who were killing ISIS. Trump put a stop to that.

NATE wow yes bombing Assad Forces who were yes bombing some ISIS but similar ANYONE who opposed his LUNATIC RULE.................including thousands of innocent civilians.
Really scummy but expect that from you.

[nate33]

That's why last week the Russian Wagners with Syrian & Iranian Troops attacked USA & Kurdish forces in Syria. The reality is that Obama and Allies already had ISIS on the run and as of today there is still mop up operations going on. Co-operation the only co-operation was USA warning the Syrians & Russians they were going to destroy a Syrian Airfield so they could get munitions and planes out.

There's a lot more to it than this. Obama kept bombing Assad forces who were killing ISIS. Trump put a stop to that.

NATE wow yes bombing Assad Forces who were yes bombing some ISIS but similar ANYONE who opposed his LUNATIC RULE.................including thousands of innocent civilians.
Really scummy but expect that from you.

Of course it's scummy. All of the wars in the Middle East amount to a choice between the lesser of two evils. The one time we tried to impose our own regime, in Iraq, ended in disaster that costed us a trillion dollars. Best to back whichever brutal dictator is going to maintain some level of peace and order and then get out as fast as possible.

The grim fact is that life in Syria under Assad is better than the alternatives.

[nate33]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[closg00]

Read on Twitter

A man-baby who lashes-out anyone and everyone with one exception

[closg00]

Read on Twitter

Trump is so corrupt, his entanglements with dirty Russian Oligarch money so-deep, it's just a matter of time before it explodes.

[Zonkerbl]

I am honestly not at all concerned with foreign agents buying ads and utilizing bots on Twitter and Facebook. We live in a free society with open speech. In general, the way to counter speech you don't like isn't to silence it with jackbooted government thugs, it's to prove it wrong with your own superior ideas. People were deluged with thousand of political adds from both parties and from hundreds of special interest groups. I hardly think a handful more add from Russians swayed anybody. And I think any efforts to stop that kind of speech in the future is likely to be corrupted and used against legitimate special interests groups in the future.

If the Russians hacked the DNC server and leaked that information, then that is certainly a more plausible argument that they affected the election. Of course, it must be noted that they only affected the election by bringing more information to the voter.

I've been bombarding you with ideas superior to yours since about 2006. Has it worked? I can't tell.

[nate33]

I am honestly not at all concerned with foreign agents buying ads and utilizing bots on Twitter and Facebook. We live in a free society with open speech. In general, the way to counter speech you don't like isn't to silence it with jackbooted government thugs, it's to prove it wrong with your own superior ideas. People were deluged with thousand of political adds from both parties and from hundreds of special interest groups. I hardly think a handful more add from Russians swayed anybody. And I think any efforts to stop that kind of speech in the future is likely to be corrupted and used against legitimate special interests groups in the future.

If the Russians hacked the DNC server and leaked that information, then that is certainly a more plausible argument that they affected the election. Of course, it must be noted that they only affected the election by bringing more information to the voter.

I've been bombarding you with ideas superior to yours since about 2006. Has it worked? I can't tell.

You've bombarded me with pithy comments like this. But not better ideas. Ending the criminal justice system and doing everything via civil courts? Really?

[Zonkerbl]

One thing Mueller has done EXTREMELY well is run a tight ship. I am 100% sure no one knows if there's another shoe to be dropped.

It's hilarious to watch Donnie Dumpster Fire freak out in the meantime though. Dude cannot handle stress AT ALL.

[Zonkerbl]

I am honestly not at all concerned with foreign agents buying ads and utilizing bots on Twitter and Facebook. We live in a free society with open speech. In general, the way to counter speech you don't like isn't to silence it with jackbooted government thugs, it's to prove it wrong with your own superior ideas. People were deluged with thousand of political adds from both parties and from hundreds of special interest groups. I hardly think a handful more add from Russians swayed anybody. And I think any efforts to stop that kind of speech in the future is likely to be corrupted and used against legitimate special interests groups in the future.

If the Russians hacked the DNC server and leaked that information, then that is certainly a more plausible argument that they affected the election. Of course, it must be noted that they only affected the election by bringing more information to the voter.

I've been bombarding you with ideas superior to yours since about 2006. Has it worked? I can't tell.

You've bombarded me with pithy comments like this. But not better ideas. Ending the criminal justice system and doing everything via civil courts? Really?

Your solution to the gun violence crisis is to execute all the black people. I don't think you should be criticizing anybody.

[nate33]

I've been bombarding you with ideas superior to yours since about 2006. Has it worked? I can't tell.

You've bombarded me with pithy comments like this. But not better ideas. Ending the criminal justice system and doing everything via civil courts? Really?

Your solution to the gun violence crisis is to execute all the black people. I don't think you should be criticizing anybody.

You have to lie about my positions to win arguments.

[Zonkerbl]

Thanks for bringing up Angela Davis' excellent book on institutional racism in the U.S. criminal justice system. I strongly encourage everyone in this thread to read this brilliant, subversive book that terrifies the **** out of Nate:

https://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf

[JWizmentality]

Watch on YouTube

[dckingsfan]

Thanks for bringing up Angela Davis' excellent book on institutional racism in the U.S. criminal justice system. I strongly encourage everyone in this thread to read this brilliant, subversive book that terrifies the **** out of Nate:

https://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf

If nothing else, look at what the Netherlands has done to monetize their prison system after they figured out that as you age you become less violent. Hence why you don't want to incarcerate people how we do today. It makes absolutely no sense.

The war on drugs and the war on crime were both bad policies driven by both parties to continue to get elected.

It is as shameful.

[I_Like_Dirt]

One thing Mueller has done EXTREMELY well is run a tight ship. I am 100% sure no one knows if there's another shoe to be dropped.

It's hilarious to watch Donnie Dumpster freak out in the meantime though. Dude cannot handle stress AT ALL.

I do want to add one thing in addition to my previous post. The discussion about the Mueller investigation needs to be broadened to include more than Trump. As someone with a certain degree of sympathy towards Bernie Sanders' cause, I can't say I was totally shocked to find out that the Russian propaganda machine had been attempting to support him as well. There will be more shoes. I do know better than to guess who they will be, though. It seems extremely likely to me, though, that indicting Russians first sets the baseline to indict Americans for similar offenses.

Yes, to me it's clear that Russia was clearly aiming to support Trump and that they probably have something on him, but even if that's true, this goes beyond that. You have to ask yourself why Russia would support Trump in the first place, and it's very clear that division is their goal, and Trump was easily the best way to cause division amongst the American population. If you think about it, though, the next best candidate to sow division was clearly Bernie, so him being supported as well shouldn't be a shock, either. Divide and conquer. Mueller's recent indictments were extremely clear that this was more than Trump, too. This wasn't just something that stopped when Trump was elected. This was something that is and will continue to be ongoing and it's already hitting both sides and going to get worse. Ted Cruz is a thoroughly unlikeable dude, and Russia targeted him heavily to try and draw support away from him. We need a bit of clarity of thought on this one overall.

Though I will say, the evidence of support through misinformation for Jill Stein made me laugh a little given how obvious of a target she would have been for support. The flipside of all of this is that it's extremely clear just how cemented into place America is right now. Russia (and not just Russia) will be extremely quick to use any 3rd party attempts as a means to sow political division making it even less likely that dckingsfan's (and my own) dream of a 3rd party ever actually happens. The only way America comes through this stronger than ever is by actually strengthening both parties, not attempting to weaken one for the attempted benefit the other. And that thought has me a little depressed given how impossible that task feels right now.

Edited to add:

Despite the common misperception, Mueller is not out to get Trump. It's just something both sides conveniently agree on from different angles: the Dems/anti-Trumpers with the idea that Trump is the pinnacle of the problem (regardless of whatever he's guilty of, and I'm convinced he's guilty of quite a bit, he isn't the pinnacle of the problem), and the pro-Trumpers with the idea that it's unfair. Trump may or may not fall for this, and I'm not sure what he's precisely guilty of and what will or won't come out, but we need to be able to look past him. The sad part is that it serves the purposes of both parties not to. Trump rallies support by making this about him, and so too do the anti-Trumps.

[cammac]

There's a lot more to it than this. Obama kept bombing Assad forces who were killing ISIS. Trump put a stop to that.

NATE wow yes bombing Assad Forces who were yes bombing some ISIS but similar ANYONE who opposed his LUNATIC RULE.................including thousands of innocent civilians.
Really scummy but expect that from you.

Of course it's scummy. All of the wars in the Middle East amount to a choice between the lesser of two evils. The one time we tried to impose our own regime, in Iraq, ended in disaster that costed us a trillion dollars. Best to back whichever brutal dictator is going to maintain some level of peace and order and then get out as fast as possible.

The grim fact is that life in Syria under Assad is better than the alternatives.

I don't consider a despot a alternative!
The Middle East is a mess from colonial rule.
The only stable faction in the area is the Kurds unfortunately there country is divided between Turkey, Iran, Iraq & Syria. They are the only troops that are reliable allies to the Western Allies and I know the Canadians have a high regard for how they fight.

[cammac]

A Politico Report!

The budget request calls for a $25 million reduction in funds designated for national school safety activities, compared with 2017. President Donald Trump's budget would eliminate altogether a $400 million grant program that districts can use, for example, to prevent bullying or provide mental health assistance.

Trump's budget would also zero out the School Emergency Response to Violence program, known as Project SERV — funded at $1 million in 2017 — that in years past provided millions in funds used by the district in Newtown. However, Hill said that the grant program's funds carry over from year to year and the department projects that a current $5.2 million balance will be sufficient to meet needs through the next fiscal year.

Its not only Trump but the whole Repulsive Republican Party and the equally Repulsive Defenders!