NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball

[Mulhollanddrive]

Michael Porter gets a medical update on Thursday I'd love to see him play 5-6 games.

[Djedefre]

That’d be huge. Fingers crossed.

BTW, i’m not sure Gafford will declare this year. I surely hope so, cause i’m convinced he’s a top 3 consideration for McD with that MIA pick.

[thamadkant]

If Suns go Doncic.

What happens to Center spot...

Bender would need to go on a HGH and steroid diet me thinks so he can start at center next season lol

I don't think we could let Doncic get away if he's available but drafting him does create a lot of issues for this roster. Not to say our current roster *should* dictate how we draft but taking Doncic means we still have a giant hole at the 4/5 and a logjam at the 3.

Ayton, if he becomes as productive as we expect, would fit really well with this roster.

Having a lot jam at a spot is bad for chemistry and trade value as we all have seen in the past.


Warren, Jackson and Doncic

Doncic is more of a point forward in the NBA IMO... He's gonna get burnt by PGs... Unless suns go 76ers way and make him PG offensively but really play SF defensively.

It's bad because Jackson will be deserving of that SF spot next season... I truly believe that.

Warren is the odd man out.... He isn't as multi skilled as the others.


But the moment suns draft a SF... Warren's value becomes an issue. Only a bidding war could raise it.

[NavLDO]

Yeah, Ayton is enticing, though what he does against not so great college competition isn't even in the realm of what Doncic has been doing against great competition.

I understand the need thing, but I would hate to pass on the next great thing because of it. I think you have to draft Doncic at 1 no question regardless of the type of player you need. My gut tells me McD might take Ayton ahead of him though based on most of his picks kind of being for need and current roster makeup.

I think exactly the opposite.

McDonough loves european prospects, he has drafted already three of them (IIRM) in Len, Bogdanovic and Bender.

I think he had in his mind Doncic when he talked to Dragic a couple of months ago, trying to repair their relationship. He knows that Dragic is like a mentor for Doncic, and it is always a good thing to have him on your side.

Position is not a problem. Doncic can play PG/SG/SF.

I am almost sure that Doncic is #1 in McDonough's mind and Trae is #1 in Booker's mind.

Trae because Booker knows him? He seems to like to be the guy who wants the ball the most and to take the most shots. With Trae that might not come as easy. Though they would make each other's games SO much easier and both probably hit like 43%+ from deep and we could erase deficits and build leads in a hurry. If you love it when Booker gets hot, that type of excitement would probably double with Trae. If only Trae had someone like that next to him in college to relieve the double and triple teams.

That's also one of the things that concern me with Young. He came into this season as a relative unknown. He was likely still the best player on Oklahoma coming into the season, but obviously, he was not even close to being a 1st Rd pick consideration in October, let alone, Lottery or Top 5. Then he has a brilliant non-conference schedule, going 10-1, with gawdy stats, then reality strikes, and since, he's only been 6-9, with decreasing stats.

He hasn't fared wonderfully against some of the better PGs coming out, either, in Jevon Carter, Kerwin Roach, and Graham. Additionally, some of these guys that are also the only 'real' talents on their clubs are finding ways to be successful, even though they are the target of opposing double and triple teams, as well...Landry Shamet, Khyri Thomas, Jevon Carter, Shake Milton, and Colin Sexton, etc.

I'll be honest, Young is losing his luster, some. I think he'll be ok in the NBA, but I certainly do not want to waste a top 5 pick on him when there are other talents to be had early, and quite a few nice shooting PGs in the draft that can be taken later, as well.

[In2ition]

What's Bagley's position in the NBA?


He's got the same measurements as Chriss but without the athleticism. So rim protection would suffer... And rebounding?

He's got narrow shoulders and bulking up would hurt his game style. So I see similar contribution as Randle? Unless he can become a true stretch mid range like Bosh

This is nuts. Same measurements as Chriss? Bagley would eat Chriss's lunch tomorrow, despite playing less years in hs and being 2 years younger. He's an inch taller and is more athletic than Chriss, and a far superior rebounder without fouling out or getting techs. He's 2 inches taller than Randle and a far superior prospect too.

[thamadkant]

What's Bagley's position in the NBA?


He's got the same measurements as Chriss but without the athleticism. So rim protection would suffer... And rebounding?

He's got narrow shoulders and bulking up would hurt his game style. So I see similar contribution as Randle? Unless he can become a true stretch mid range like Bosh

This is nuts. Same measurements as Chriss? Bagley would eat Chriss's lunch tomorrow, despite playing less years in hs and being 2 years younger. He's an inch taller and is more athletic than Chriss, and a far superior rebounder without fouling out or getting techs. He's 2 inches taller than Randle and a far superior prospect too.

Bagley is listed as 6'10 With 7'0 wingspan and 8'10 standing reach or maybe 8'11.

Chriss is 6'9 With 7'0 wingspan or shorter... But similar 8'10~8'11 standing reach.

Didn't say anything about his performance but a question on his position in the NBA...because he seems lacking length to be a rim protector.... No doubt he has talent as I envision something similar to Chris Noah. But it's not nuts when it's factual that he's got similar measurements as Chriss.

[kennydorglas]

What's Bagley's position in the NBA?


He's got the same measurements as Chriss but without the athleticism. So rim protection would suffer... And rebounding?

He's got narrow shoulders and bulking up would hurt his game style. So I see similar contribution as Randle? Unless he can become a true stretch mid range like Bosh

This is nuts. Same measurements as Chriss? Bagley would eat Chriss's lunch tomorrow, despite playing less years in hs and being 2 years younger. He's an inch taller and is more athletic than Chriss, and a far superior rebounder without fouling out or getting techs. He's 2 inches taller than Randle and a far superior prospect too.

Bagley is listed as 6'10 With 7'0 wingspan and 8'10 standing reach or maybe 8'11.

Chriss is 6'9 With 7'0 wingspan or shorter... But similar 8'10~8'11 standing reach.

Didn't say anything about his performance but a question on his position in the NBA...because he seems lacking length to be a rim protector.... No doubt he has talent as I envision something similar to Chris Noah. But it's not nuts when it's factual that he's got similar measurements as Chriss.

Bagley is definitely a 4. And I think he's very underrated as an athlete. Plays above the rim w/ ease.

[In2ition]

What's Bagley's position in the NBA?


He's got the same measurements as Chriss but without the athleticism. So rim protection would suffer... And rebounding?

He's got narrow shoulders and bulking up would hurt his game style. So I see similar contribution as Randle? Unless he can become a true stretch mid range like Bosh

This is nuts. Same measurements as Chriss? Bagley would eat Chriss's lunch tomorrow, despite playing less years in hs and being 2 years younger. He's an inch taller and is more athletic than Chriss, and a far superior rebounder without fouling out or getting techs. He's 2 inches taller than Randle and a far superior prospect too.

Bagley is listed as 6'10 With 7'0 wingspan and 8'10 standing reach or maybe 8'11.

Chriss is 6'9 With 7'0 wingspan or shorter... But similar 8'10~8'11 standing reach.

Didn't say anything about his performance but a question on his position in the NBA...because he seems lacking length to be a rim protector.... No doubt he has talent as I envision something similar to Chris Noah. But it's not nuts when it's factual that he's got similar measurements as Chriss.

The Bagley hate has gotten out of control. Not that you are hating on him. He is now exactly what we wish Chriss would hopefully develop into. I hope the Suns take Ayton, Bagley somehow slides and the Suns can move up to take him too. That would solidify the Suns frontcourt and create a forth pillar for the next 10-15 years, as he's an AZ kid who grew up playing in the Jr. Suns. He's also very well may be the hardest worker in the entire draft. By the way, he's a 4, but could play small ball 5.

[bwgood77]

This is nuts. Same measurements as Chriss? Bagley would eat Chriss's lunch tomorrow, despite playing less years in hs and being 2 years younger. He's an inch taller and is more athletic than Chriss, and a far superior rebounder without fouling out or getting techs. He's 2 inches taller than Randle and a far superior prospect too.

Bagley is listed as 6'10 With 7'0 wingspan and 8'10 standing reach or maybe 8'11.

Chriss is 6'9 With 7'0 wingspan or shorter... But similar 8'10~8'11 standing reach.

Didn't say anything about his performance but a question on his position in the NBA...because he seems lacking length to be a rim protector.... No doubt he has talent as I envision something similar to Chris Noah. But it's not nuts when it's factual that he's got similar measurements as Chriss.

The Bagley hate has gotten out of control. Not that you are hating on him. He is now exactly what we wish Chriss would hopefully develop into. I hope the Suns take Ayton, Bagley somehow slides and the Suns can move up to take him too. That would solidify the Suns frontcourt and create a forth pillar for the next 10-15 years, as he's an AZ kid who grew up playing in the Jr. Suns. He's also very well may be the hardest worker in the entire draft. By the way, he's a 4, but could play small ball 5.

Everyone keeps mentioning moving up in the draft. I'll be shocked if a team trades out of the top 7 of this draft. Teams rarely trade out of a top tier. It would have to be a great offer. The only team what was able to trade up into kind of a top tier (in what was perceived as a weak draft after the top two) recently was us, moving up to take Chriss, who was a controversial prospect due to being historically bad college rebounder and possible attitude/work ethic issues, and that cost us 3 first rounders, one of which was playing very well overseas...and one was another lottery pick at 13.

So many teams are tanking for a reason.

[thamadkant]

I'm bitter with Chriss because I like Bogdanovic and seeing him play well is a kick in the nuts... Especially when Chriss pouts and play dumb and lazy

[Mulhollanddrive]

Kansas is all over Oklahoma early 20-4.

Trae Young 0-3 FG, 1 assist, 1 turnover.

[bwgood77]

I think exactly the opposite.

McDonough loves european prospects, he has drafted already three of them (IIRM) in Len, Bogdanovic and Bender.

I think he had in his mind Doncic when he talked to Dragic a couple of months ago, trying to repair their relationship. He knows that Dragic is like a mentor for Doncic, and it is always a good thing to have him on your side.

Position is not a problem. Doncic can play PG/SG/SF.

I am almost sure that Doncic is #1 in McDonough's mind and Trae is #1 in Booker's mind.

Trae because Booker knows him? He seems to like to be the guy who wants the ball the most and to take the most shots. With Trae that might not come as easy. Though they would make each other's games SO much easier and both probably hit like 43%+ from deep and we could erase deficits and build leads in a hurry. If you love it when Booker gets hot, that type of excitement would probably double with Trae. If only Trae had someone like that next to him in college to relieve the double and triple teams.

That's also one of the things that concern me with Young. He came into this season as a relative unknown. He was likely still the best player on Oklahoma coming into the season, but obviously, he was not even close to being a 1st Rd pick consideration in October, let alone, Lottery or Top 5. Then he has a brilliant non-conference schedule, going 10-1, with gawdy stats, then reality strikes, and since, he's only been 6-9, with decreasing stats.

He hasn't fared wonderfully against some of the better PGs coming out, either, in Jevon Carter, Kerwin Roach, and Graham. Additionally, some of these guys that are also the only 'real' talents on their clubs are finding ways to be successful, even though they are the target of opposing double and triple teams, as well...Landry Shamet, Khyri Thomas, Jevon Carter, Shake Milton, and Colin Sexton, etc.

I'll be honest, Young is losing his luster, some. I think he'll be ok in the NBA, but I certainly do not want to waste a top 5 pick on him when there are other talents to be had early, and quite a few nice shooting PGs in the draft that can be taken later, as well.

Young was underrated then he probably got overrated a bit though most places still didn't put him into top 5, even though many here did (for me he hovered around in that top 5 but I think I voted Porter at 2 even when Young was peaking). And now he is struggling, though he is playing in one of the tougher conferences (probably the toughest top to bottom) with no other real high profile national recruits like Ayton and Bagley. So comparing him based on win/loss relative to those guys isn't fair. The team is largely the same as last year, and they were 11-20. It's not like Fultz going 2-14 in conference play or whatever it was, when he joined a team that had made the NIT the year before.

Young was the 20th ranked prospect coming in

NEWCOMER OF THE YEAR: TRAE YOUNG, OKLAHOMA
Young, the No. 20 prospect in the class of 2017 according to the Recruiting Services Consensus Index, reportedly drew scholarship offers from brand-name programs like Duke, Kansas, Kentucky and Arizona, but the Norman North (Okla.) product elected to stay home and play for the Sooners.

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/10/23/big-12-preview-projections-rankings-standings

But he wasn't in most first round mocks. I wasn't high on any of the PGs though prior to Young emerging though. I think most of them are career backups.

Some of the draft gurus on the NBA draft board (some of these guys are very good) were on high him...particularly Fischella, the guy you ranted on about his team's terrible trade for McDermott. viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1624106&start=20#p60369734

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1624106#start_here

He even came around and told us in our draft thread very early how he liked him better than Sexton, and I asked him how come he is not in a mock..he mentioned he was in his and some people pointed out others, such a tankathons who had him in there in the mid teens.

No one expected Young to lead this team without top tier prospects to being ranked in the top 5, but now they are tumbling, as AZ did when they fell out of the polls losing 3 straight early in the year. The PAC 12 isn't nearly as tough as the BIG 12 either.

His non conference schedule wasn't that easy overall though, as they played two ranked teams, beating #3 Wichita St, and #25 USC and also beat Oregon. Then they played Arkansas. Then they also beat some ranked teams in conference...# 5 ranked Kansas, #10 TCU twice and #16 Texas Tech.

I have always been high on shooters and passers though, and of course the slump and the turnovers are concerning. I watched him live and really felt he is an elite passer. Very good at getting to the line.

As far as his shooting I'm still convinced he will be the best shooter out of the draft. It's been broken down with much more context than you have provided and that his high percentage of nba length 3 pointers combined with the high % of shots off the dribble, impact that %, because as a catch and shoot guy, he is a much better shooter, and he'd probably shoot much more of those in the NBA when the ball swings around more and he is open.

I think he would probably relieve Booker's job the most of the prospects (other than Doncic and maybe Porter, though he would draw some bigger guys), because other perimeter defenders would have to focus on Trae, leaving Booker more shots, and vice versa.

But I like him and Porter a lot because we desperately need shooting.

What concerns me on Bagley is mostly his defense and rim protection, and probably not playing C, and then his subpar 3 pt shooting in conf play on limited volume, but what many advanced experts consider the better translation of shooting is the ft% where he shoots 62%...we already have that problem with JJ.

I do like the thought of Bender pairing with Bagley in the front court since Bender can play D and probably rim protect better and Bagley is very aggressive and a good rebounder and scorer. So theoretically the pairing could work.

The thing is, to me, all the prospects have question marks and weaknesses, and shooting is the biggest premium skill needed in the NBA and we are one of the worst shooting teams.

But Ayton's lack of defense or great rim protection (though the latter isn't bad), possibly wanting to play PF, is not bad, but given his sheer dominance, he's hard to pass on in top 2 or 3, particularly at 2 if he is in the tier and equal with other guys given our needs.

But our other big weakness as a team is defense....and not having defense at the C spot is worse than not having it at the PG spot (though the Booker pairing could hurt).

Was was interesting to read today...is that even though we rank as the worst defense since 2008-9, we rank 10th in forcing the opposition to take difficult shots. That seems odd and I'm not sure what to make of that. I think Bender disrupts a lot of shots, and Jackson can be a hound, but that is just an odd stat. It leads me to believe, Triano is coaching them to force opponents to make tough shots, but our talent is lacking overall...perhaps that's not it given his history of being a bad defensive coach though.

Now about JJJ...he sounds so enticing because he can rim protect with that insane block % and he is an excellent defender, AND he is an elite 3 pt shooter. Those are all the perfect skills. He is also the youngest guy in the draft.

In theory, for today's nba, the top 3 based on the NBA today should be Doncic, Porter and JJJ...and possibly Young. But then you have the fact JJJ is a little more raw/young...so might take a little time, and Porter has the back injury.

I LOVE the idea of playing Porter at the 4 like Durant/George..IF healthy.

Then the bigs with defensive issues are the more dominant players/scorers but can we afford a bad defensive frontcourt for our future? Given our defensive problems in the back court?

But then again, what if Ayton is Towns and Bagley is a more aggressive Bosh?

Ultimately, after Doncic

Bamba is good defensively and he seems more boom/bust. Young could be too.

Ultimately I would really want Doncic at 1, and after that it's tough...based on the type of players in today's NBA JJJ and Porter are awfully tempting, but the dominance of Ayton/Bagley is tough to pass. Ultimately I will be fine with any of the top 6 in that second range....with Bamba just outside for now...and Bagley is just getting in there for me...and Young hovering around the bottom of that top tier.

The funny thing is, I was the one pointing out Trae's downfall and weaknesses and slump before you jumped on and argued with me about it (because people were talking taking him at 1) and I thought if we go PG you have to go Doncic over him. PG was hands down our biggest need a couple weeks ago so that needed to change with no options in FA...especially if that tier was too close to call.

I also really value thestepien's analysis and rankings as they seem to do a lot of in depth research....they still have Young in their top 2, but that last ranking was updated 1/30 so I'd be interested to see if they move him down. I would like to see more analysis on that.

Also, I thought Bagley was probably #1 before the season, but his weaknesses concerned me. He does seem like the type of guy what will work the hardest to improve though, and the Duke coach says he has that mindset of guys he coached on the olympics, so I think he could conceivably become a good 3 pt shooter while starting out like Bosh where he stretches the floor somewhat though not from 3 as much to being career...and could get better at defense and free throws.

You have potential work ethic issues with Ayton as well...but the dominance is hard to ignore.

Sorry for the long post...maybe some redundancies, but I'm sure you're quite used to long posts.

Edit: OKLA with a VERY slow start against KU, but of course KU is one of the top teams and most stacked teams in the country who has won 14 consecutive BIG 12 regular season conf championships, AND are at home, with Young being smothered, the usual as of late.

Ultimately though, I think an Ayton (or any big) and Shai-Gilgeous would be a great pairing or Doncic or possibly Young, and Mitchell Robinson, Robert Williams or Daniel Gafford.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Half Time: Trae Young 1-6 FG, 4 points, 6 assists, 2 turnovers.

[bwgood77]

Half Time: Trae Young 1-6 FG, 4 points, 6 assists, 2 turnovers.

Looks like they clearly changed their game plan against him after he got them for 26 and 9 on the first meeting, going 7/9 from the field and 2/3 from 3, leading OK to the victory.

[lilfishi22]

Young isn't in my top 3 but I think he's going to be fine in the NBA. At worst, I think he's going to be a decent off-ball shooter or an OK PG with a jumper.

[thamadkant]

Young would be great for a team like Orlando or Detroit.

[Mulhollanddrive]

The main difference is that he isn't taking / making pull up 3s anymore.

[bwgood77]

The main difference is that he isn't taking / making pull up 3s anymore.

He didn't really take many 3s in the first Kansas game and played a much more controlled and conservative game. I rarely see him get open catch and shoot 3s, so they are almost all off the dribble and sometimes with a defender right there. When they don't give you any wide open looks with few other threats or none that draw double teams it's very tough for him to ever get the open catch and shoot 3s that always register a higher percentage. Once he was tearing up college basketball, teams geared towards just stopping him.

They can't really do that on Duke or Arizona players.

[AtheJ415]

I'm bitter with Chriss because I like Bogdanovic and seeing him play well is a kick in the nuts... Especially when Chriss pouts and play dumb and lazy

Bogdan is 5 years older and making $9.5 mil per year. I'd argue it's debatable if he is even worth his contract, and the upside gap is not comparable. And I say that as someone who also likes Bogdan. Once he declined to come on a rookie deal his value went out the window.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Mike James shot a higher FG% than Trae Young's last 11 games.