Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
My picks:
2020 Draft (3rd pick) - Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell, or Onyeka Okongwu
2021 Draft (11th pick) - Moses Moody
2020 Draft (3rd pick) - Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell, or Onyeka Okongwu
2021 Draft (11th pick) - Moses Moody
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
The Hornets didn't trade for an expiring contract, which means that one of the following things will likely happen over the summer player wise.
1. The team will keep things mostly the same, signing a draft pick and some cheap free agents. This will likely cause them to go over the tax threshold.
2. The team will trade one of Dwight, Nic, Kemba, Marvin, MKG, Cody, or Lamb to a team with cap space (not many of these) to avoid the tax, this will likely cost a draft pick to accomplish or only be an option for a young guy like Lamb, and the team is unlikely to improve much - unless addition by subtraction of a guy like Dwight makes a huge difference.
3. The team will stretch a player. We've talked about Batum, but Dwight may actually be a better candidate for this next summer. That move would have less negative impact financially (both long & short term) and would probably have a bigger chemistry and play-style impact that doing this to Nic.
None of these moves would get the team below the cap, so they would be restricted to the mid-level and other trades to improve. Still, with next year's projected market the mid-level or even a portion of it might be enough to get a decent addition.
Of all of these options stretching Dwight is the one I like the best in a vacuum.
1. The team will keep things mostly the same, signing a draft pick and some cheap free agents. This will likely cause them to go over the tax threshold.
2. The team will trade one of Dwight, Nic, Kemba, Marvin, MKG, Cody, or Lamb to a team with cap space (not many of these) to avoid the tax, this will likely cost a draft pick to accomplish or only be an option for a young guy like Lamb, and the team is unlikely to improve much - unless addition by subtraction of a guy like Dwight makes a huge difference.
3. The team will stretch a player. We've talked about Batum, but Dwight may actually be a better candidate for this next summer. That move would have less negative impact financially (both long & short term) and would probably have a bigger chemistry and play-style impact that doing this to Nic.
None of these moves would get the team below the cap, so they would be restricted to the mid-level and other trades to improve. Still, with next year's projected market the mid-level or even a portion of it might be enough to get a decent addition.
Of all of these options stretching Dwight is the one I like the best in a vacuum.
My picks:
2020 Draft (3rd pick) - Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell, or Onyeka Okongwu
2021 Draft (11th pick) - Moses Moody
2020 Draft (3rd pick) - Tyrese Haliburton, Devin Vassell, or Onyeka Okongwu
2021 Draft (11th pick) - Moses Moody
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
I was thinking maybe we could use the expiring of Dwight Howard and some other asset/s to try and add a player either at the wing or the 4. I'm not sure who would be available for the right asking price, but I think raising Dwight's value then using him as an expiring to acquire a better piece might have been the plan all along
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
Stretching Dwight is a bad idea. We are already screwed cap wise if we try to resign Kemba we will never have money to spend on someone to help him. This was why we needed to move him. We now have to get lucky in the draft in order to fix our issues. If we stretch Dwight we carry over 7 million a year for three years in dead weight which is a killer. We just need to eat the bad moves and accept we dropped the ball this deadline and just let players expire and leave until all we have is an aging Kemba and maybe on 2020-21 we can get someone to help him.
Spoiler:
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
what are the rules on extending Kemba this summer? I'm under the impression that we're allowed to offer him up to a maximum of 5 years / $205M (see: Westbrook contract) starting in 2019-20 if he makes an all-NBA team this season, but what are we allowed to offer if he doesn't? Are we still able to lock him up to the typical 30% instead of 35%?
investigate Adam Silver
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
Good question.
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
Where BOB at with that answer
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
BlackOutBuzz wrote:BOB
meant to tag him in the first post lol
investigate Adam Silver
Re: RE: Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: RE: Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
MotorKeepsGoing wrote:what are the rules on extending Kemba this summer? I'm under the impression that we're allowed to offer him up to a maximum of 5 years / $205M (see: Westbrook contract) starting in 2019-20 if he makes an all-NBA team this season, but what are we allowed to offer if he doesn't? Are we still able to lock him up to the typical 30% instead of 35%?
My understanding is that this is not the case. He either has to meet the criteria for the designated extension (All-NBA team, DPOY, or MVP) or he will be limited to an extension starting at 120% of his previous salary (about $14.4M).
The new CBA essentially limits the 30% to designated rookies and players that hit free agency with 7-9 years of experience. The latter will apply to Kemba, but not until he finishes his contract in 2019.
Basically, I don't see an extension in the cards... the max we could offer (assuming no All-NBA) would be 4 years/$64.5M, or 5 years/$76.5M when you add the final year of his current deal. Conversely, when he hits FA in 2019 he can sign a 5-year deal worth up to $188M (assuming current cap estimates hold).
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Hornets Picks by Year
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
It's not specifically addressed but it seems there is a bit of a loophole that could give him one more chance to become eligible for the 35% extension right before hitting FA. Apparently these extensions can be reached up until the day prior to the player hitting FA, and the criteria is based on the most recent post-season awards. So even if an extension isn't agreed to this off-season, if he makes an All-NBA team next year we could still offer him the 35% extension as long as it's before July 1, 2019. That extension also allows for an extra year.
5 years/$200.5M, or 6 years/$212.5M when you include the final year of the current deal.
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5 years/$200.5M, or 6 years/$212.5M when you include the final year of the current deal.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Hornets Picks by Year
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
Re: RE: Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: RE: Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
BlackOutBuzz wrote:MotorKeepsGoing wrote:what are the rules on extending Kemba this summer? I'm under the impression that we're allowed to offer him up to a maximum of 5 years / $205M (see: Westbrook contract) starting in 2019-20 if he makes an all-NBA team this season, but what are we allowed to offer if he doesn't? Are we still able to lock him up to the typical 30% instead of 35%?
My understanding is that this is not the case. He either has to meet the criteria for the designated extension (All-NBA team, DPOY, or MVP) or he will be limited to an extension starting at 120% of his previous salary (about $14.4M).
The new CBA essentially limits the 30% to designated rookies and players that hit free agency with 7-9 years of experience. The latter will apply to Kemba, but not until he finishes his contract in 2019.
Basically, I don't see an extension in the cards... the max we could offer (assuming no All-NBA) would be 4 years/$64.5M, or 5 years/$76.5M when you add the final year of his current deal. Conversely, when he hits FA in 2019 he can sign a 5-year deal worth up to $188M (assuming current cap estimates hold).
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Okay thanks.
Just to make sure I have this right: if we were absolutely determined to lock Kemba up to a major extension right now, we would have to dump something like $30-35M in contracts for next season so that we would have cap space to re-negotiate his current contract from $12M up to the starting point of his next contract. I know the Sixers did this with Covington and believe Denver did this with a couple of their veterans like Gallinari.
That's obviously nearly impossible given the state of team's salary books this summer, so that leads to my next question:
I remember Ty Lawson and Denver restructuring the final year of his contract and making it a team option instead of a player option in order to facilitate a trade to Houston. Could we, in theory, re-negotiate Kemba, giving him a player option to make Kemba a free agent in 2018 instead of 2019, and then sign him to a new contract immediately after? We would skyrocket through the luxury tax, but I assume we'd be trading Dwight+Lamb for less salary and then stretch-waiving the incoming piece before this kind of move.
There's merit for both parties here if this is possible:
Kemba: gets an absolutely massive raise for 2018-19. Likely doubles his salary for next season. Also locks in a huge contract one year sooner- takes away the risk of injury affecting a 2019 payday.
Hornets: Simple choice. You do what it takes to lock up your franchise player. 2018 free agency is far safer than 2019. As of right now, all but ten teams have max cap space for 2019. Only five have max cap space in 2018. Also, with the team in flux, peace of mind that your star is under contract even if you bottom out for a couple years is invaluable.
investigate Adam Silver
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
MotorKeepsGoing wrote:Just to make sure I have this right: if we were absolutely determined to lock Kemba up to a major extension right now, we would have to dump something like $30-35M in contracts for next season so that we would have cap space to re-negotiate his current contract from $12M up to the starting point of his next contract. I know the Sixers did this with Covington and believe Denver did this with a couple of their veterans like Gallinari.
That's obviously nearly impossible given the state of team's salary books this summer, so that leads to my next question:
Right.
MotorKeepsGoing wrote:I remember Ty Lawson and Denver restructuring the final year of his contract and making it a team option instead of a player option in order to facilitate a trade to Houston. Could we, in theory, re-negotiate Kemba, giving him a player option to make Kemba a free agent in 2018 instead of 2019, and then sign him to a new contract immediately after? We would skyrocket through the luxury tax, but I assume we'd be trading Dwight+Lamb for less salary and then stretch-waiving the incoming piece before this kind of move.
Ok I had to do some research here. I kinda remember that trade but couldn't find anything on how it was modified, and since it happened before the latest CBA I wasn't sure it would still be allowed. It looks like that scenario would be fine, but only if the option year was converted into a regular contract year rather than another type of option.
The great Larry Coon briefly touches on this in point 60 of the CBA FAQ:
"An existing contract may otherwise be modified... to eliminate an option or ETO. Note that eliminating an option does NOT constitute illegally shortening a contract, since an option year isn't considered part of the original term of a contract until it is invoked."
He then gives an example involving the Chris-Paul-to-the-Clippers trade.
"Contracts are sometimes amended to eliminate an option or ETO in order to facilitate a trade. For example, before the Hornets traded Chris Paul to the Clippers in 2011 they amended his contract to remove his player option, thereby locking Paul into his contract for two seasons rather than allowing him to leave after one season with the Clippers."
I can't seem to find a definitive reason why your scenario wouldn't work, but the implication seems to be that you can only convert options into guaranteed years, not vice-versa.
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Hornets Picks by Year
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
BlackOutBuzz wrote:...
So you're saying that if the contract has an option, it can be amended either way, but if there is no option then it can't be changed. Now, Kemba's deal is fully guaranteed, no team or player options. Which is exactly what Ty Lawson's (coincidentally identical) 4 year $48M contract signed in 2012 was. When signed, there were no team or player options either way.
In 2015 when he wanted a trade from Denver, he elected to make the final year of his contract unguaranteed. It wasn't a team option, it was a change of guaranteed/unguaranteed money.
Now this is where I see the issue. For this to work, the unguaranteed portion of Kemba's contract would need to be waived in order to create a new contract. Which obviously means that his $12M contract would be able to be picked up on waivers by another team, which defeats the whole purpose.
So yeah, scrap this whole idea if we're not allowed to throw in a player/team option to an existing contract where there is none.
investigate Adam Silver
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Re: RE: Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
MotorKeepsGoing wrote:BlackOutBuzz wrote:...
So you're saying that if the contract has an option, it can be amended either way, but if there is no option then it can't be changed. Now, Kemba's deal is fully guaranteed, no team or player options. Which is exactly what Ty Lawson's (coincidentally identical) 4 year $48M contract signed in 2012 was. When signed, there were no team or player options either way.
In 2015 when he wanted a trade from Denver, he elected to make the final year of his contract unguaranteed. It wasn't a team option, it was a change of guaranteed/unguaranteed money.
Now this is where I see the issue. For this to work, the unguaranteed portion of Kemba's contract would need to be waived in order to create a new contract. Which obviously means that his $12M contract would be able to be picked up on waivers by another team, which defeats the whole purpose.
So yeah, scrap this whole idea if we're not allowed to throw in a player/team option to an existing contract where there is none.
Ah, yeah that's the kicker. Making it unguaranteed made sense there given Lawson's issues, but wouldn't really help us here. Even if somehow he went unclaimed, we'd lose his bird rights in the process.
I think we're gonna have to wait out the current deal and go from there.
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Hornets Picks by Year
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
Teams are highly unlikely (in any sport) to give a player a contract and put more money on their cap earlier than they need to. The Hornets have so many questions to be answered and really don't know what the landscape will look like next year or the year after, so it is in their best interest to extend him when they need to even if that means a "risk" he's going to walk and play somewhere else. I think that risk is low right now given Kemba's attitude during the trade rumors. He seems like a loyal guy who wants to win where he started.
I do wonder if this impacts what we do at head coach though. But typically a new GM means a new coach too. We shall see. Lots that can change over the next year or two for this franchise.
I do wonder if this impacts what we do at head coach though. But typically a new GM means a new coach too. We shall see. Lots that can change over the next year or two for this franchise.
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
Bonnell article with Curtis Polk that kinda confirms what we've been discussing relative to the Kemba extension.
"Polk says Walker’s inexpensive contract, combined with NBA restrictions on extensions, mean it’s highly unlikely Walker can be locked down before he becomes an unrestricted free agent in July of 2019."
The problem, potentially, is Walker is playing on such an inexpensive contract, relative to his productivity, ($12 million this season, and the same salary next season) that it’s unrealistic under NBA rules to lock him up long-term now. An extension would have to be linked to his current salary, which would still pay him far below fair market for an All-Star point guard.
Polk said it’s a “concern” Walker will likely have to reach unrestricted free-agency before he could be re-signed, but that’s a function of the rules.
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"Polk says Walker’s inexpensive contract, combined with NBA restrictions on extensions, mean it’s highly unlikely Walker can be locked down before he becomes an unrestricted free agent in July of 2019."
The problem, potentially, is Walker is playing on such an inexpensive contract, relative to his productivity, ($12 million this season, and the same salary next season) that it’s unrealistic under NBA rules to lock him up long-term now. An extension would have to be linked to his current salary, which would still pay him far below fair market for an All-Star point guard.
Polk said it’s a “concern” Walker will likely have to reach unrestricted free-agency before he could be re-signed, but that’s a function of the rules.
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Hornets Picks by Year
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
BlackOutBuzz wrote:Polk said it’s a “concern” Walker will likely have to reach unrestricted free-agency before he could be re-signed...
Related?
Re: RE: Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
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You mean that he's gaining notoriety prior to hitting the open market? I wonder if a part of the Hornets brass actually dreaded him making the All-Star game this year. Can you imagine Kemba hitting UFA as a 29-year old coming off three consecutive All-Star appearances? $$$$$$$$$yosemiteben wrote:BlackOutBuzz wrote:Polk said it’s a “concern” Walker will likely have to reach unrestricted free-agency before he could be re-signed...
Related?
Though I think Polk is just referring to how the CBA has kinda screwed us over with the Kemba situation. His initial extension was more than fair at the time, but by him being a late bloomer it hurts team flexibility in the long-term. You could argue it's better to overpay players coming off rookie deals simply for this reason, that is if it weren't so impossible to project.
The only extensions we can offer now are borderline insulting given Kemba's level of play. Had we given him a rookie max extension (a la Lillard) or close to it, we could offer a much more compelling extension now. But owners can't help themselves, and need defined benchmarks (All-NBA, MVP, DPOY) to keep them from handing out max money to Harrison Barnes or something.
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Hornets Picks by Year
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
2021: Bouknight, Jones, Thor, Lewis
Protection on future 1st* (to NYK); 2nds
2022: 1-18; CHA (31-55), TOR 2 (55-60)
2023: 1-16; BOS (GH)
2024: 1-14; BOS (GH)
2025: 1-14; CHA (31-55)
*Becomes two 2nds if unconveyed
Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
- yosemiteben
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
I was actually thinking the opposite, MJ showing Jordan Brand love in hopes of keeping Kemba in the fold.
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Re: Hornets Cap Outlook
I can kinda see MJ pulling some strings at Nike and giving Kemba a huge Jordan Brand signature shoe deal... and then miraculously, Kemba agrees to an extension with the Hornets for that 4 years/$64.5M number. Kemba gets his money, he gets to stay.
I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.
I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.
Who I woulda took:
2023: Miller | 2022: Duren | 2021: Bouknight, Jones | 2020: Ball | 2019: PJ | 2018: MPJ | 2017: Monk | 2016: Damian Jones | 2015: Winslow | 2014: Vonleh, Napier | 2013: McLemore | 2012: MKG | 2011: Knight, Kawhi
2023: Miller | 2022: Duren | 2021: Bouknight, Jones | 2020: Ball | 2019: PJ | 2018: MPJ | 2017: Monk | 2016: Damian Jones | 2015: Winslow | 2014: Vonleh, Napier | 2013: McLemore | 2012: MKG | 2011: Knight, Kawhi