Luka Doncic part II

[Mirotic12]

Jaric was better in NBA, Dragic is better in NBA, and Danilovic was more than decent in NBA.

As far as examples like Spanoulis, Djordjevic, Maciauskas - they didn't get a chance, so calling them busts is just totally unfair and completely biased thinking and logic. Spanoulis had 11 games total with at least 10 minutes of playing time, and he produced these numbers in those games:

16.7 minutes

4.8 points
1.8 assists
1.0 rebounds
0.5 steals

His per 36 numbers in those games were,

10.3 points
3.9 assists
2.2 rebounds
1.1 steals

Not his fault his coach hated European rookies, and openly said so. You can't look at games where a guy didn't even get 10 minutes of playing time and judge. In the 11 games he got at least 10 minutes, his production was not at all bad for a ROOKIE. Most coaches would be perfectly fine with a backup point guard giving that production as a rookie.

Some people just stick to these myths about European basketball and try to make them true as long as possible. Like how people said for years, "Spanoulis failed because no Greek could play in the NBA." Now I see people saying, "no white Greek can play in the NBA".

It's nonsense. I am 100% positive guys like Djordjevic and Spanoulis would have been good NBA players if their coaches gave them even half of a chance. Both were much better than guys like Rubio, Udrih, Prigioni, and Calderon, that spent years as NBA rotation players. I mean far better than them. Just NBA coaches being biased against some European players.

Look at freaking Petrovic...Rick Adelman refused to play him for 2 years. Petrovic said in several interviews he was going back to Europe just one week before he was traded to the Nets. Think about how ridiculous that is...IF he never got traded to the Nets, we would still to this day see NBA only fans claiming "he was not good enough for the NBA". He missed that claim being forever attached to him by one week. All because a well respected American NBA coach didn't believe European guards could play.

So the argument that there was no bias, and players like Djordjevic and Spanoulis were "just scrubs" just does not hold up at all under any real analysis. There was a very strong bias by a lot of American coaches against European players, especially guards (obviously because they handle the ball a lot more than big men), and people that refuse to acknowledge that are just putting opinions over what actually factually happened.

This whole "European guards are always busts" myth has very little actual basis to it at all.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I really don't get the point somebody is making.
What Doncic has been doing is unprecedented.
No point bringing up Rubio (who's still having a starter level career and is really elite at the things he was elite at in Europe) or Hezonja, they were not comparable to Doncic. As nobody performed the way he did at his age, I really don't know where you want to go with these analogies, there's just no ground.
You can only compare him to the very very very best guards playing in Europe and in the NBA like Drazen or Manu, and acknowledge he's doing better than them at the same age.

[Mirotic12]

Personally I don't really think it's that debatable. He was already a beast in his last year playing for Kinder, clearly better than the majority of players you mentioned (many of them were putting up big numbers playing for much worse teams). Some from that list ARE debatable and subject to one's preferences, though, that I agree, but personally I really couldn't put them above 2002 Manu. That 2002 Kinder team was STACKED, yet Manu was clearly their best player.

As for Papaloukas - Doncic. I'm quite sure that you were the one who originally made the comparison, around a year ago! I mostly agree, though, things have changed since then, with Doncic being a much better scorer now. As for passing and court vision, I think we need to wait a bit here. Doncic's clearly looking to pass a lot less this year (his numbers are similar, but last season he had the ball in his hands a whole lot less). I seriously doubt that's going to be the case in the NBA, with much better talent surrounding him than this injury depleted Real's team from 1st half of this season.

I said Jaric was more similar to Doncic. Papaloukas = different player (one of a kind court vision and passing).

Well, the point is, it's up to opinion that Manu was "best guard in Europe". It's factually highly debatable. So even in that case, it's not really pertinent to be using him as a comparison, considering he was 24 at the time, while Doncic is one of the best in Europe, but at age 19. For me, Doncic is better right now than Manu was in Europe. For example, just to compare to recent players - I never thought Manu in Europe was as good as Teodosic, Spanoulis, or even Llull last year. Maybe he was better overall than Teodosic, if factoring in defense.

Even older players like Jasikevicius, Papaloukas, Diamantidis were better in Europe than Manu was. So Manu might seem like a good comparison to make for Doncic, but in reality, Doncic is already better than Manu was at age 24 in Europe.

[UcanUwill]

I think Manu was easily better than Llull and Spanoulis, Better than Doncic too for sure. Doncic started the year like a GOAT, but he looked very ordinary as of late.

[Alyosha12]

I think Manu was easily better than Llull and Spanoulis, Better than Doncic too for sure. Doncic started the year like a GOAT, but he looked very ordinary as of late.

Falls. Here you have Manus stats from his last year:

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=AKX&seasoncode=E2001#!E2001_RS

While very good, Manus stats in his last season were 16 PPG, 3,8RBS, 3 AS, 2.5 ST and a PIR of 17 on 51,6% 2PT, 34%3PT and 77,8FT shooting, and he did play better in the F4 and worse in the top 16, hes stats were nothing like Luka's are now. And that was in 22 games played in the whole season.

And lets not forget, Manu was 25 years old, so that is Prime Manu right there.

Now this year Luka played 22 games in the Euroleague already, and these are his stats:

18 PPG, 5.2RBS, 4.5 AS, and a PIR of 24 on 60,9% 2PT, 34%3PT and 81,4%FT shooting.

He is better then Manu was, and it is not even close, and he is much younger then Manu was. And last of all, he is putting up such stats on a powerhouse team not a scrub team.

And its laugahable to say Doncic has been looking ordinary as of late. His stats in the last 9 games have been 16PTS, 4,7RBS, 5AS and a PIR of 21.9.

If that is freaking ordinary Manu was playing like a scrub in comparison.

[UcanUwill]

I think Manu was easily better than Llull and Spanoulis, Better than Doncic too for sure. Doncic started the year like a GOAT, but he looked very ordinary as of late.

Falls. Here you have Manus stats from his last year:

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=AKX&seasoncode=E2001#!E2001_RS

While very good, Manus stats in his last season were 16 PPG, 3,8RBS, 3 AS, 2.5 ST and a PIR of 17 on 51,6% 2PT, 34%3PT and 77,8FT shooting, and he did play better in the F4 and worse in the top 16, hes stats were nothing like Luka's are now. And that was in 22 games played in the whole season.

And lets not forget, Manu was 25 years old, so that is Prime Manu right there.

Now this year Luka played 22 games in the Euroleague already, and these are his stats:

18 PPG, 5.2RBS, 4.5 AS, and a PIR of 24 on 60,9% 2PT, 34%3PT and 81,4%FT shooting.

He is better then Manu was, and it is not even close, and he is much younger then Manu was. And last of all, he is putting up such stats on a powerhouse team not a scrub team.

And its laugahable to say Doncic has been looking ordinary as of late. His stats in the last 9 games have been 16PTS, 4,7RBS, 5AS and a PIR of 21.9.

If that is freaking ordinary Manu was playing like a scrub in comparison.

Can't judge it all on stats.

[Alyosha12]

Sure, that is true, but those stats say a lot. And don't worry, I was lucky enough to watch almost all Kinder games when Manu played, and he was amazing. But just as much so, as Luka is now.

And I watched Kinder because they played a very fun brand of basketball and also because of Smodis. And even based on the eye test, Luka is playing just as well as Manu was, and he is just as important to the Real team, as Manu was to Kinder.

And that is exactly the reason why Doncic is so unprecedented in Europe. Something like this has simply never happened before.

[XTraderXL]

He looked ordinary in comparison to his first 2/3 months of the season. But if you just looked at his performances in a vacuum, he is still one of the best in all competitions. If he is able to produce while playing ordinary by his standards, thats very telling.

What I noticed as of late is that his head wants to do something but his body doesnt allow it. Its not that he is incapable of it, he is currently in a bad physical condition. He has been able to do things I want to see from him earlier this season but lately his body regressed so he started playing differently. What he needs most in start lifting weights and get stronger. That will do wonders for his game. The problem is that he cant really do that during the season, at least not as much as he needs to especially if he is not used to lifting. There are 8 more games in EL in regular season and then the playoffs (3-5 games). If Real qualifies for F4, he will have 1 whole month of playing only ACB so there will be enough time for him to get some rest and do some work on his body during that time.

After the season is over, I expect him to be in the weightroom 5 times per week and that his body will look very different after the summer.

[UcanUwill]

He looked ordinary in comparison to his first 2/3 months of the season. But if you just looked at his performances in a vacuum, he is still one of the best in all competitions. If he is able to produce while playing ordinary by his standards, thats very telling.

What I noticed as of late is that his head wants to do something but his body doesnt allow it. Its not that he is incapable of it, he is currently in a bad physical condition. He has been able to do things I want to see from him earlier this season but lately his body regressed so he started playing differently. What he needs most in start lifting weights and get stronger. That will do wonders for his game. The problem is that he cant really do that during the season, at least not as much as he needs to especially if he is not used to lifting. There are 8 more games in EL in regular season and then the playoffs (3-5 games). If Real qualifies for F4, he will have 1 whole month of playing only ACB so there will be enough time for him to get some rest and do some work on his body during that time.

After the season is over, I expect him to be in the weightroom 5 times per week and that his body will look very different after the summer.

In a vacuum, he had great stats in Copa del rey finals this past week, but on the court he looked very underwhelming. I cant recall him having a fantastic game since Fenerbachce match.

And yeah, he needs to turn some of that weight into muscle, that is the next step in his evolution.

[Alyosha12]

That is such a silly argument to make. Show me a player or a star player who doesn't have a stretch games, where he plays worse then usual and a stretch where he plays better as usual.

The point is, that not only at his best, but even at his worse Doncic is still an amazing player to have on your team, and his play is still unprecedented as far as Europe is concerned.

The only guys who played on such level at such a young age that I can remember are Kukoc, Petrovic, Sabonis. And that is a hell of a company to be in.

[Rn5ho]

https://www.canishoopus.com/platform/amp/2014/2/26/5435374/potential-nba-draft-prospects

Might have already been posted before, but still a very nice article on "skill vs athleticism" discussion when talking potential.

[burek3]

ESPN draft news: Fran Franschilla on why Doncic is the new first pick

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=22513129

[Nikson]

I think Manu was easily better than Llull and Spanoulis, Better than Doncic too for sure. Doncic started the year like a GOAT, but he looked very ordinary as of late.

How was Manu better than Doncic for sure? In his last Euro season, or? One just see he was better?
If he was not better In points, assists, rebounds... in what was he better?
Yes he was 6 years older, skinnier, already has less hair?

[UcanUwill]

I think Manu was easily better than Llull and Spanoulis, Better than Doncic too for sure. Doncic started the year like a GOAT, but he looked very ordinary as of late.

How was Manu better than Doncic for sure? In his last Euro season, or? One just see he was better?
If he was not better In points, assists, rebounds... in what was he better?
Yes he was 6 years older, skinnier, already has less hair?

He was basically Doncic but way quicker.

[Nikson]

I think Manu was easily better than Llull and Spanoulis, Better than Doncic too for sure. Doncic started the year like a GOAT, but he looked very ordinary as of late.

How was Manu better than Doncic for sure? In his last Euro season, or? One just see he was better?
If he was not better In points, assists, rebounds... in what was he better?
Yes he was 6 years older, skinnier, already has less hair?

He was basically Doncic but way quicker.

How did he use his quickness? Why didn't he use it more often as it would sure benefit his team?

[UcanUwill]

He was basically Doncic but way quicker.

How did he use his quickness? Why didn't he use it more often as it would sure benefit his team?[/quote]

Well, thats easy, they are both very crafty, but Manu's first step and better lateral moves let him create a better shot mostly at the rim, where Doncic relies way too much on step backs. He is good at creating space, but his shot cooled down and his efficiency has been meh in a lot of recent games.
Honestly I am looking at their stats, and it doesn't support my case I guess, Doncic has been excellent, but as of late he hasn't been that impressive from the eye test perspective. Manu could win you games, Doncic just chucks 3s way too much, his shot selection has been brutal at times.

[Nikson]

Yes. I understand. And sometimes, how we remember things is not how they were. Stats might help.

[Nikson]

And if we add into consideration age difference of complete 6 years... then statement of Manu being for sure better than Dončić is very bold. At 18-24 it means much much more than 24-30.

Actually Luka is for sure better than Manu was 6 years older. There is no eye test against this. The difference in stats is just to big.

[Nikson]

UncanUwill, I apologise. There might be one parameter, significant one, which play against my claims. I don't remember but those Manu Eurolegue last year might be one of those seasons with very low scoring games. Like 52:56 or 57:61... In that circumstances Manus PIR might look much better?

[Mirotic12]

I think Manu was easily better than Llull and Spanoulis, Better than Doncic too for sure. Doncic started the year like a GOAT, but he looked very ordinary as of late.

Manu in Europe - Manu never had a season close to as good as Llull did last year. Manu never carried teams on his back to finals and championships. He played in a super stacked team, which was easily the best team in Europe, and was one of several stars in the team.

Spanoulis carried teams with mid level or lower budgets to 4 finals and 2 championships, with only some help from Printezis in a couple years. No comparison at all in terms of impact and ability to change games.

Manu to Doncic - I honestly can't see any advantage for Manu on an individual level, other than athleticism and defense. Doncic is clearly better in every other way.

Manu has now become quite overrated as to what level of player he was in Europe, due to people that are NBA fans overrating what he did there. The same way people do it for Sabonis. Suddenly they became these unheard of untouchable players in Europe, when the actual fact was they were nothing all that special in EuroLeague.

I remember quite well, that for example, no one considered Manu to be as good as Bodiroga when he was in Europe. He was never thought as even in the discussion for best player in Europe, and people saying otherwise don't remember right, or simply don't know and assume it.

You can make an argument for Doncic being the best player in Europe, something Manu wasn't even in his mid 20s.