RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 (Mookie Blaylock)

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RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 (Mookie Blaylock) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:32 pm

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Chris Paul
24. Bob Pettit
25. George Mikan
26. Steve Nash
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Kevin Durant
29. Stephen Curry
30. Scottie Pippen
31. John Havlicek
32. Elgin Baylor
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Rick Barry
35. Gary Payton
36. Artis Gilmore
37. Jason Kidd
38. Walt Frazier
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Kevin McHale
41. George Gervin
42. Reggie Miller
43. Paul Pierce
44. Dwight Howard
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Bob Cousy
47. Ray Allen
48. Pau Gasol
49. Wes Unseld
50. Robert Parish
51. Russell Westbrook
52. Alonzo Mourning
53. Dikembe Mutombo
54. Manu Ginobili
55. Chauncey Billups
56. Willis Reed
57. Bob Lanier
58. Allen Iverson
59. Adrian Dantley
60. Dave Cowens
61. Elvin Hayes
62. Dominique Wilkins
63. Vince Carter
64. Alex English
65. Tracy McGrady
66. James Harden
67. Nate Thurmond
68. Sam Jones
69. Kevin Johnson
70. Bob McAdoo
71. Sidney Moncrief
72. Paul Arizin
73. Grant Hill
74. Bobby Jones
75. Chris Bosh
76. Tony Parker
77. Shawn Marion
78. Hal Greer
79. Ben Wallace
80. Dan Issel
81. Larry Nance
82. James Worthy
83. Chris Webber
84. Rasheed Wallace
85. Dennis Rodman
86. Horace Grant
87. Elton Brand
88. Terry Porter
89. Maurice Cheeks
90. Carmelo Anthony
91. Tim Hardaway
92. Jack Sikma
93. Billy Cunningham
94. ????

Go.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#2 » by trex_8063 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:33 pm

1st vote: [tentatively going with] Chet Walker
Not 100% set on this; may decide to switch back to Kawhi for this spot. But Walker's a reasonable-length (and durable) career of providing moderate-high(ish) scoring on good efficiency [mostly with his devastating mid-range game--->in his final 10 seasons he was collectively 47.8% FG's despite the VAST majority of those shots coming in the mid-range; that's elite in any era]; also a fairly respectable rebounding SF, and a reputation of sound defense makes him a solid candidate here.
Key piece of one of the greatest teams ever. Teams in Chicago had somewhat underwhelming playoff success, but to be fair: the playoff structure at the time was weird, and a high seeding didn't always get you an easy first round match-up.

Again, I may or may not switch back to Kawhi for this pick, too. I'm sorta on the fence.


2nd vote: Kawhi Leonard
Longevity lacking, but aside from Bill Walton, he's the highest peak left on the table. He was a good role player in his rookie year and a borderline All-Star by his 2nd season; only got better from there. In fact, aside from Walton, Kawhi's got TWO seasons that are better than any one peak year of anyone left on the table, imo.
He's been scoring elite level volume on elite level efficiency, and ultra-elite level turnover economy (in light of combined scoring and playmaking). Add to that decent rebounding from the SF position and his defensive presence and some big-time playoff performances.........well, his six seasons feel like plenty to award him a spot on the list.


Other guys I'd be at least semi-comfortable with include Walt Bellamy, Dave DeBusschere, Joe Dumars, Shawn Kemp, Marques Johnson, George McGinnis, and yes pen----even Mel Daniels. Guys like Jeff Hornacek, Vlade Divac, Cliff Hagan, Jerry Lucas, Dennis Johnson, Neil Johnston all worth mentions (or potentially even traction) here, too [imo].
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:30 pm

Vote: Mel Daniels
Alternate: Jerry Lucas (Sharman, Howell, Beaty, Dumars, or one of the SFs if someone can compare Connie Hawkins, Chet Walker, Marques Johnson, Kawhi Leonard)


Why Mel Daniels? It may be winner's bias, but when I see a team win multiple championships, I tend to look more closely at the makeup of the teams to see WHY they are winning. I don't automatically value big minute contributors to championships, I have been down on Bob Cousy's role on those Celtic titles for example. However, I do value the championships a lot and how a team got there. Indiana was the Boston Celtics of the ABA. They didn't have nearly the big name stars of Kentucky (Gilmore, Issel, Dampier), New York (Erving, Kenon), or even San Antonio (Gervin, Silas, Paultz) but they won the most and the most consistently. Breaking those teams down, Slick Leonard was a competent coach but had little success elsewhere and wasn't that highly regarded for either his game management or his player development. Their guards were pretty weak. Freddie Lewis a below average PG, not much of a distributor and only an average shooter and defender, while their 2 guards changed regularly and were unimpressive. Roger Brown at SF was a nice scorer with good range, great handles, and enough variety that his nickname was "the man of a thousand moves." He was definitely a key factor but he didn't play much defense or add much rebounding or playmaking. The PF were Bob Netolicky (the self proclaimed Joe Namath of the ABA) who was another excellent scorer and decent rebounder with no interest in defense then they replaced him with George McGinnis, another volume scorer (less efficient) and a great rebounder who generated a lot of assists, and turnovers. But for me, looking at this franchise's success, it was all built around Mel Daniels in the middle. A good scorer (consistently close to 20 a game on above average efficiency), great rebounder (usually among top in league), and powerful defender (better positionally than in help defense) who set the tone of the team and acted as their enforcer. His career was short and corresponds almost exactly with the rise and fall of the Pacers as a force in the ABA (his rookie year, he apparently shot a lot of long jump shots and had poor efficiency for Minnesota, which Leonard immediately banned when he came to Indiana).


Mel Daniels is certainly the only multiple MVP winner left. Nobody else changed or dominanted on both ends to the same degree for more than 1-1.5 years (Walton, Hawkins). Daniels was the best player on two championship teams plus a willing support role on a third championship though in a weak league (probably better than the pre-Russell 50s though). I tend to value defense, particularly for big men, and Mel was basically the original Alonzo Mourning with more rebounding but less shotblocking or, to use dhsilv2's comp, Moses Malone (without the longevity of course). He was a 1st round NBA pick (the first to sign with the ABA) and in the NBA would probably have been one of the best centers as well, not in the Jabbar league, but contending with Unseld/Cowens for the rebounding leaderboard and 2nd team All-Defense with good scoring (but poor playmaking). The two MVPs show he was valued above his box scores.

It is reasonable to compare Daniels to Kawhi Leonard as they have similar length of career by now. Kawhi brings excellent wing defense early on, but Daniels was probably more impactful defensively as intimidating defensive centers tend to be (especially in the 20th century). Kawhi's defense is still good and his scoring has blown up, a clearly better option than Daniels; also clearly a better passer. Daniels brings rebounding and toughness at a level equal to guys like Wes Unseld or Dave Cowens who are already in from his era (other league). I think the impact Daniels brought was appreciably higher in his league than that Kawhi has in the current league, enough to overcome the much weaker league he played in. Connie Hawkins would be another early ABA guy, higher peak than Daniels, shorter career though he did have a 1st team All-NBA between his first and second major knee injury. More of a career than Walton, less than Daniels. With careers this short, the difference is magnified. Of the bunch, I rate Daniels the highest.

Lucas, early Kevin Love type that played a long career. Announcers used to call 20-25 footers, "Lucas Layups," as the Royals would station him outside to let Oscar bully people in the paint. Great rebounder, super smart, comes across as a bit of a "rain man" type with his memorizing phone books and needing to know his exact stats. Played well as a role player on the Knicks post prime.

Getting mentioned by position:
PG Mookie, DJ, Archibald
SG Sharman, Dumars, Lou Hudson, Richmond, Hornacek
SF Chet Walker, Kawhi, Marques Johnson, Bernard King, Wilkes, Dandridge, Mullin, Hagan
PF Amare, Connie Hawkins, Bailey Howell, Paul Silas, Kemp, McGinnis, Jerry Lucas, Buck Williams, DeBusshcere
C Mel Daniels, Mark Gasol, Bellamy, Yao. Divac, Zelmo, Johnston
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#4 » by pandrade83 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:16 pm

I'm going to dedicate the majority of this space to touting my alternate candidate because I'm candidly not sure he'll get in at all - and I think it would be worse if the alternate didn't get in than if my primary missed. By Spot #95, I'll flip this if Mookie isn't in by then because of the historical value of the latter player.

Primary: Mookie Blaylock
Alternate: Bill Walton



I think we all understand Bill Walton's peak. But it's another to see it.



Walton finished 13th in the most recent RGM Peaks project - the next 10 players behind him:

Julius Erving
Oscar Robertson
Dwayne Wade
Steph Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
Jerry West
Kevin Durant
Patrick Ewing
Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant

That's quite a list of people to be ahead of - and so we have to keep that value in mind.

The most common rebuttal I'm going to hear is "That's great, but it is just the one year."

But if you dig deeper, you see he offers more value than "just the one year". It's certainly problematic to my case that these years are not going to be consecutive, but let's look at years where I think he offered some meaningful value. I'm going to omit '77 from this because we're all familiar with it.

'76 - Portland goes 26-25 with; 11-20 without. Even though Walton isn't yet the defensive force he'd become, Portland is 6th in DRtg. Walton averages 16.1 pts-13.4 reb-4.3 assists + 1.6 blocks. He does this despite logging just 33 mpg. He was healthy at the end of the year so it's likely he could have played in the playoffs.
'78 - Portland goes 48-10 with; 10-14 without! That's the difference between a 68 win pace & a 34 win pace. Walton is the anchor of a super team - and this is after the merger. Walton wins MVP and the impact on winning is quite pronounced. Walton averages 19-13-5-2.5 blocks this year on 52% shooting. It's unfortunate that the injury robs him of what otherwise would have likely been a Portland title - but this year is impactful for the regular season.

In '84 & '85, Walton plays 75% of the games for the Clippers. It's not well remembered but he's still effective - even the limited clips we have of that time support it.



From a scouting standpoint, Walton still possesses stellar passing capabilities & excellent rim protection. You'll see that his ability to get up & down the court is diminished considerably - his quickness isn't as strong as the Portland tape, but he's still an effective player. The diminished mobility robs him of some defensive impact - but while on court he's impactful.

In '84 the Clippers are 23-32 with, 7-20 without - a 34 win pace with & 21 win pace without. Walton is a 12-9-3 player plus nearly 2 blocks per game in just 26 mpg with a TS% of 57%.
In '85 it's a similar story - the Clippers are a 33 win pace team with Walton & a 22 win pace team without.

Then in '86 he joins Boston and becomes a key member of one of the teams in the GOAT discussion.

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His playing time is limited - just 19 mpg - but the rate statistics are impressive: 14-13-4-2.5 blocks on 61% TS.

All told, he has what this board determines is the 13th best peak, plus 5 more strong impact - if limited minute years.

It's not just the magical '77 campaign.

I mentioned at the top if we get to slot 96 and Mookie isn't in that I'm going to flip it and here's why - and this is how I'll wrap up.

Pretend that you have a full business day to cover the history of professional basketball with an alien. What topics would you cover? What names would you mention?

Go through our list starting at around slot #65. Do those guys get covered? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I promise you that Bill Walton gets discussed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blaylock is a special player , who in my opinion, suffers from a historical standpoint by playing for also-ran Hawks in the 90's. Because he isn't a strong scoring point guard, he's not thought of fondly. But he is one of few point guards who really moved the needle defensively and at the least has a credible argument in the GOAT Defensive PG discussion. In addition to stellar defense, he is an excellent all-around contributor who was a strong rebounder for his position, above average playmaker for others & in the years where he shot well, is a true threat. This is captured by very high VORP Scores that saw him place in the Top 10 in VORP 5 times.

NPI RAPM corroborates what the Box Score tells us - giving him excellent marks in his prime years that we have data for. My longer post about Blaylock is below.

From a regular season standpoint, Blaylock should have gone in some time ago - everything we know about impact loves him - both from a box score & RAPM standpoint.

In the Box Score

-Blaylock leads a pair of 55 W+ Atlanta teams in WS, VORP & PER - PLUS he leads two more playoff teams in all of those metrics in both '95 & '96
-He finishes Top 10 in VORP an impressive 5 times and is Top 10 in DWS (very hard for a guard to do) 4 times.
-He has a pair of double digit WS years to his name including a relatively high peak of 12.5 in '97; this peak is higher than anything Carmelo Anthony achieved, for example.

Impact
-NPI RAPM grades him as a Top 10 player the first two years we have data - it's likely that it would have seen him as having a comparable impact in '94-'96 as well based on how his metrics in the other years stack up.
-Even in '99 - when Blaylock is exiting his prime, RAPM still views him as a decisively high impact player in a wonky season (lock-out - only 50 games - some sample size issues)
-In '98 when he misses 12 games, the Hawks go 44-26 with (52 win pace) & 6-6 without (41 win pace)

The three knocks on him are longevity - he has 72 career WS which isn't great at this juncture - & a lack of memorable playoff moments along with weak shooting efficiency. The shooting efficiency is partially off-set by helping you win the possession battle - more steals than TOs, strong TO economy in general & strong positional rebounding.

WRT longevity, he does have 5 outstanding seasons of play ('94-'98) where it's more likely than not his overall impact is that of an all-star with a 2nd team All-NBA caliber play. His post/pre-prime seasons are a little short on impact & the prime duration is relatively short.

On playoffs - he is poor in '93, '99 & '95 - suffering steep drop-offs all 3 years. Career playoff #"s of 47% TS on 14 PPG is not great - I don't want to come off as letting him off the hook here. He does have some strong defensive performances - one I'll highlight specifically is his performance on Jordan in the '97 2nd round. Jordan was held to 3 PPG less than his rs average on a fairly soft 51% TS. The video clip below shows aggressive & strong defense - both man to man & help throughout the series.

He generally maintains his stealing prowess, rebounding & passing in the playoffs - the biggest hit is to his scoring & offensive efficiency. Although the video I post below does highlight robust defensive impact, you will see a horrible shot attempt at the 14 second mark - and that's one of the things I remember about him - poor judgment on shooting . . . which may be exhibited in his personal life as he is serving a 5 year prison sentence.

At any rate - most players being elected at this stage have fairly steep playoff drop-offs, so I don't view it as comparatively damning, but it needs mentioned. I think if he played for a different franchise, he'd be in by now.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#5 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:25 pm

Hey, I'm not registered for this but I've been meaning to jump on the project toward the later placements so might as well stop procrastinating on this.

I'm assuming there are less votes now than there were at the start of the project, so maybe y'all could use the activity. If my vote doesn't count, no problems.


I've always been a proponent of high peak players. I also like to take into account non-NBA work if I think the player had NBA level superstar impact else where.

This makes Bill Walton an easy selection for me. I mean even with longevity taken into account, I would rather have 3 years or so of Bill Walton playing 60ish games than Carmelo Anthony.

Dominant two way centers just give your team such a crazy mismatch advantage. His passing, defense, scoring - I'm not sure if another player could have fit the championship blazers like Walton did - maybe Sabonis.


I vote for Bill Walton
My second vote is for Kawhi Leonard
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#6 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:15 pm

Vote: Connie Hawkins
Alt: Bill Walton

I'll re-push Hawk a bit.

#1 thing I think people really need to understand: There isn't really any doubt as to whether Hawkins had superstar level talent. In some ways he seems better than Julius Erving to me. I admire his resiliency and his ability to jump into new settings undaunted.

And while longevity practically speaking is an issue, bkref's shows his Win Shares to be totally in line with a bunch of other lesser talents already discussed.

Walton on the other is impossible to know where to place. I have no issue at all with him missing the top 100, but if others are jumping on the bandwagon right now, I'm gonna also. From a "Hall of Fame"-worthiness perspective he's far higher than #94 even without the UCLA years.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#7 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:35 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Vote: Connie Hawkins
Alt: Bill Walton...


What's your take on Marques Johnson v. Connie Hawkins...and for that matter Kawhi Leonard?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#8 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:44 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:... even with longevity taken into account, I would rather have 3 years or so of Bill Walton playing 60ish games than Carmelo Anthony. ...
I vote for Bill Walton
My second vote is for Kawhi Leonard


The problem I have with Walton is that he's such a unique talent that you have to build around him if you have him. And, he pushed hard to make sure he was always one of the highest paid talents in the league, both in Portland where he primed a bidding war with the ABA to force up his value, and with San Diego when he jumped teams as a free agent. Those teams were crippled every year when he inevitably went down. (Sterling deserved it but it was part of the curse of the Clippers mystique).

And, he doesn't give you 3 years of championship contention, he gives you one. He was just too fragile to make it through to the playoffs in any shape to play either in Portland or in San Diego except for that one shining season. I have no problem with his only playing around 60 games if he is capable of playing in the playoffs, but he just never was. So, if what you primarily care about (as I do) is how much he can contribute to a potential title team you have one year of starting prime Walton, and one as a superb 6th man (but not at prime level anymore). That doesn't put him over Mel Daniels (2 MVP, key to 3 title teams) to me even if his peak is clearly superior. It's basically one year of prime Shaq v. 6 years of prime Zo . . . I prefer 5 years of Zo even if he was never Shaq.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#9 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:52 pm

pandrade83 wrote:...

God those clips are fun to watch :D
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#10 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:56 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:... even with longevity taken into account, I would rather have 3 years or so of Bill Walton playing 60ish games than Carmelo Anthony. ...
I vote for Bill Walton
My second vote is for Kawhi Leonard


The problem I have with Walton is that he's such a unique talent that you have to build around him if you have him. And, he pushed hard to make sure he was always one of the highest paid talents in the league, both in Portland where he primed a bidding war with the ABA to force up his value, and with San Diego when he jumped teams as a free agent. Those teams were crippled every year when he inevitably went down. (Sterling deserved it but it was part of the curse of the Clippers mystique).
Well, I just judge by what they did on the court. I don't feel comfortable judging players by the money that they try to demand.

And, he doesn't give you 3 years of championship contention, he gives you one.
I do take into account Walton's upper class man years in UCLA since I believe he had NBA caliber superstar impact those years. In a different time he would have been in the NBA much quicker, and generated a bit more production (of course he was not healthy in college either).

I have no problem with his only playing around 60 games if he is capable of playing in the playoffs, but he just never was. So, if what you primarily care about (as I do) is how much he can contribute to a potential title team you have one year of starting prime Walton, and one as a superb 6th man (but not at prime level anymore). That doesn't put him over Mel Daniels (2 MVP, key to 3 title teams) to me even if his peak is clearly superior. It's basically one year of prime Shaq v. 6 years of prime Zo . . . I prefer 5 years of Zo even if he was never Shaq.

I don't know much about Mel Daniels, I'll check the older threads to see if there was knowledge dropped about him.

Walton getting injured during the playoffs in his MVP season hurts, but I tend to look away from post season injuries. After a certain number of games are played in a season, I look at most injuries as accidents even if in Walton's case it was a trend.


As for his championship year - considering he only had one fully healthy post season run and that was enough to win a ring despite not having a stacked team (in a traditional sense) it seems like he doesn't need that much to get the job done. It's easier to find a collection of solid players with a low tier all star or 2 than the whole big 3 superstar model that plagued today, 80s and 70s.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#11 » by dhsilv2 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:37 pm

I can easily say Walton isn't on my list and I don't think he's someone I'd talk to an alien about. Unless we're counting college i don't see a case for him. Even his magical 76 year, he missed significant games.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#12 » by pandrade83 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:50 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:I can easily say Walton isn't on my list and I don't think he's someone I'd talk to an alien about. Unless we're counting college i don't see a case for him. Even his magical 76 year, he missed significant games.


You have a full business day to cover the NBA and teach someone and you wouldn't even mention Walton? Not once?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#13 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:54 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Vote: Connie Hawkins
Alt: Bill Walton...


What's your take on Marques Johnson v. Connie Hawkins...and for that matter Kawhi Leonard?


I don't really have a lot of thoughts on Marques. I know some thing he's very underrated. I might be able to be convinced to have him over Connie.

As for Kawhi, honestly, it's hard to ignore what's going on right now. I'd be hard pressed to vote for him at all. I know that sounds like a violation of the rules - letting current events influence opinion - but to me off-court stuff shapes my opinion of what has happened in the past. At this point I think more highly of guys like Draymond Green, or Jimmy Butler, and frankly I don't know if there's any current player around I feel like has accomplished more than Andre Iguodala...who frankly doesn't particularly seem like he needs to be on the Top 100.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#14 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:59 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:... even with longevity taken into account, I would rather have 3 years or so of Bill Walton playing 60ish games than Carmelo Anthony. ...
I vote for Bill Walton
My second vote is for Kawhi Leonard


The problem I have with Walton is that he's such a unique talent that you have to build around him if you have him. And, he pushed hard to make sure he was always one of the highest paid talents in the league, both in Portland where he primed a bidding war with the ABA to force up his value, and with San Diego when he jumped teams as a free agent. Those teams were crippled every year when he inevitably went down. (Sterling deserved it but it was part of the curse of the Clippers mystique).


My impression of those Blazers wasn't that they were ideally suited toward Walton, but that Walton's style of play just made the game a lot easier for his teammates. I mean, in this day and age it would be a given that you'd surround Walton with 3-point shooters, not because he needed them, but because that's just what you do if you have a great passer.

I think that if you can strip away all the physical ailments that led to all the lost time and simply evaluate players on what they do when they are at their best on the floor, Walton might be my GOAT.

But I value your opinion beast. I know you are more even on Walton than I am, but what specifically makes think he'd be difficult to build around?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#15 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:04 am

pandrade83 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:I can easily say Walton isn't on my list and I don't think he's someone I'd talk to an alien about. Unless we're counting college i don't see a case for him. Even his magical 76 year, he missed significant games.


You have a full business day to cover the NBA and teach someone and you wouldn't even mention Walton? Not once?


I don't see any reason, unless we got into announcers. I guess if we spent half an hour on them, yeah he might get mentioned in passing.

He was in the playoffs twice while on the blazers and then was a nice role player for the celtics...so maybe he gets mentioned in passing there, but I doubt it.

Robert Horry would absolutely get more discussion than Walton, and I'd assume most people touch on him more.

I get that the guy won an MVP and was the best player on a title team, but that was a one and done event.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#16 » by pandrade83 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:07 am

penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:... even with longevity taken into account, I would rather have 3 years or so of Bill Walton playing 60ish games than Carmelo Anthony. ...
I vote for Bill Walton
My second vote is for Kawhi Leonard


The problem I have with Walton is that he's such a unique talent that you have to build around him if you have him. And, he pushed hard to make sure he was always one of the highest paid talents in the league, both in Portland where he primed a bidding war with the ABA to force up his value, and with San Diego when he jumped teams as a free agent. Those teams were crippled every year when he inevitably went down. (Sterling deserved it but it was part of the curse of the Clippers mystique).

And, he doesn't give you 3 years of championship contention, he gives you one. He was just too fragile to make it through to the playoffs in any shape to play either in Portland or in San Diego except for that one shining season. I have no problem with his only playing around 60 games if he is capable of playing in the playoffs, but he just never was. So, if what you primarily care about (as I do) is how much he can contribute to a potential title team you have one year of starting prime Walton, and one as a superb 6th man (but not at prime level anymore). That doesn't put him over Mel Daniels (2 MVP, key to 3 title teams) to me even if his peak is clearly superior. It's basically one year of prime Shaq v. 6 years of prime Zo . . . I prefer 5 years of Zo even if he was never Shaq.


So, I don't think he gave you 3 years of championship contention. If he did, he'd be in by now (even if '78 Portland gets upset with a healthy Walton by a fairly stout Denver team, or Washington).

What I do think is fair to say:

-He has one of the highest 15 peaks or so ever (voted #13 in the Peaks project fwiw) and it dwarfs everyone else left.
-He has another 4 years of very high impact per minute, relatively low minute volume seasons where he was more or less healthy at the end ('76, '84, '85, '86). It's unfortunate that 3 of these teams didn't make the playoffs, but the With/Without metrics show significant impact (12 or so win change) on all of those 3 non-playoff teams.

I'm less sure how much value the 78 season has. It's nice to say he was the MVP and it dramatically improves your odds you'll get a Division title but it's not going to be a championship year unless the rest of your team is just stacked.

But it's not "just" that one year and that's why I spent so much time writing about the value of those other years - we forget about them because they aren't the scale of '77 but it's not like there's no value outside of that one year either.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#17 » by pandrade83 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:08 am

dhsilv2 wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:I can easily say Walton isn't on my list and I don't think he's someone I'd talk to an alien about. Unless we're counting college i don't see a case for him. Even his magical 76 year, he missed significant games.


You have a full business day to cover the NBA and teach someone and you wouldn't even mention Walton? Not once?


I don't see any reason, unless we got into announcers. I guess if we spent half an hour on them, yeah he might get mentioned in passing.

He was in the playoffs twice while on the blazers and then was a nice role player for the celtics...so maybe he gets mentioned in passing there, but I doubt it.

Robert Horry would absolutely get more discussion than Walton, and I'd assume most people touch on him more.

I get that the guy won an MVP and was the best player on a title team, but that was a one and done event.


So, you're discussing Mookie Blaylock? I would not discuss Horry more than Walton. The best player on a post-merger title team would get some discussion for sure.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#18 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:18 am

pandrade83 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:
You have a full business day to cover the NBA and teach someone and you wouldn't even mention Walton? Not once?


I don't see any reason, unless we got into announcers. I guess if we spent half an hour on them, yeah he might get mentioned in passing.

He was in the playoffs twice while on the blazers and then was a nice role player for the celtics...so maybe he gets mentioned in passing there, but I doubt it.

Robert Horry would absolutely get more discussion than Walton, and I'd assume most people touch on him more.

I get that the guy won an MVP and was the best player on a title team, but that was a one and done event.


So, you're discussing Mookie Blaylock? I would not discuss Horry more than Walton. The best player on a post-merger title team would get some discussion for sure.


Parker might be the last guy we discussed I'd mention (as the spurs run with Duncan is a very meaningful stretch). 8 hours isn't that long a time.

If I were to teach an nba history class at a university, he would not be on any test, nor would we spend much time on him either. I think I'd lump the stars of the 70's into half a lecture and then the titles teams into another. Of course we'd have a full class on the changes to the game and culture of the game in the 70's. Then anther on the ABA and the imact. But I'm assuming I get like 20 lectures or so to even justify that length.

Did walton change the nba? Where there rules changes? Did he have a huge cultural impact on the league?

*edit - Rodman and Grant would come up. Webber might get a mention though more related to the "too much too soon era".

edit 2 - Really, you think Horry wouldn't come up a bunch? I mean you can't tell the story of Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, or Duncan without him getting a cameo on all 4.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#19 » by pandrade83 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:30 am

Walton comes up in 3 ways:

-Key member of a GOAT Team
-Any touching on what-ifs
-Description of the league post merger and anyone who has a Top 20 peak that coincided with a title is going to get at least a little love from me.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #94 

Post#20 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:44 am

pandrade83 wrote:Walton comes up in 3 ways:

-Key member of a GOAT Team
-Any touching on what-ifs
-Description of the league post merger and anyone who has a Top 20 peak that coincided with a title is going to get at least a little love from me.


A win 49, under 6 SRS team is GOAT level for you?

I dunno, 65 games and calling it a top 20 peak even that gives me some issues. I'm not saying he wasn't good enough to be a top 20 peak, but I dunno. For me you have to be around longer and make a real impact on the game and he didn't for someone to be a key part of the history and story of the game. Walton's career taken out of the league and I don't think anything changes at all. I guess Dr J gets another ring and maybe his story gets more interesting. Maybe the blazers do better since they'd I'd assume have drafted someone else...though the guys drafted after him has no nba careers to speak of.

Anyway, I think there's a case for Walton despite myself not seeing him in the top 125, but story of the NBA to mean would be just fine without Walton. I actually think by those standards we have a few interesting players left who might be worth discussing. Sabonis being an interesting guy, Horry being the clear cut guy imo, Ming, and then I'd even pull in our 50's guys who were banned for gambling.

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