Luka Doncic part II

[richboy]

He's a 19 year old kid (in 4 days), playing in ACB / EuroLeague, in one of the major clubs (Real Madrid)....the season is very long and grueling, and now teams prepare for him, and now the season is starting to get into some more serious games.

Just like he struggled a lot last year in the EuroLeague Final Four and the ACB Finals....

It's called being a 19 year old college freshman aged player, playing in a very high level men's league.

If people thought he would keep up the pace he had earlier in the year, all season, then they have absolutely zero concept of the level of competition he is playing at. Like last season, some people here were arguing he was going to be final four MVP and lead his team to a title - that was incredibly absurd and ridiculous. Him struggling at that point of the season was totally predictable.

So to it is totally predictable that his numbers were going to drop this season, once Real got back some injured players, the games got more important, and opposing teams started to plan more strategy for Doncic defensively.

If Doncic was just going to tear through modern EuroLeague at age 18-19, then he would be the greatest talent ever in basketball history. It's clear from comments here, that the vast majority of people in these forums have no grasp of how high the level of competition is that he's playing at, for a 18-19 year old kid.

I guarantee no NCAA player would be even remotely close to his same production, if they were playing in Real Madrid.

Doncic having ups and downs, and slumps, just proves the enormous difference from a big EuroLeague team to NCAA. If anything, it should strengthen his case to go #1 overall, because he's going to be like at least 2 years ahead of any NCAA player in his development and NBA readiness.

There is a lot of hyperbole about the toughness of the Euro league and a lot of it goes unchallenged for the most part. The Euro league is tough but it is not more TALENTED than NCAA basketball especially from a NBA standpoint.

This is a ridiculous comment. The Euro league is full of players that played college basketball. That played NBA basketball. It is why this thread and the evaluation is laughable. The guys in college suppose to dominate college. 95% of college players will never make money playing basketball. When looking at Luka you almost have to evaluate him like he is in the NBA. He is playing professionals. Like I said in the past. The only players that could be as good as Luka in Euro league at this age would all be HOF players.

[SportsGuy8]

I really don't know why is it so hard to understand that NCAA teams mostly only have ZERO, 1 or 2 players that MIGHT one day end up in the NBA.

Only a select few teams regularly have multiple players that end up getting drafted to the NBA (like Kentucky).

Let's take a look at NBA draftees from a supposedly very strong ACC conference, where Bagley's Duke is in:
https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Atlantic-Coast-Conference/1/nba-draft

These are all drafted players from ACC, meaning 15 (FIFTEEN) teams! So yes, from THE WHOLE CONFERENCE, a supposedly very strong conference, only around 10-15 (TEN-FIFTEEN) players get drafted every season and many of them are from Bagley's own team!

Now consider that other prospects play against a similar, or mostly EVEN INFERIOR competition!

P.s.: Not even mentioning that they're KIDS!

[SlowPaced]

Ok, how many players gets more athletic when they leave their teen years? Look up most NBA hyper athletes' film when they were in high school, all of them were even more athletic back then. How many people gets more athletic with age, few maybe. One I can remember is probably Jabari Parker. Some fanboys are just hanging on this faith that player with somehow improve athletically. its a pipe dream.

I say the best case for Doncic is losing weight, because losing weight is easy. I would love if he became jacked as Giannis, but very few basketball players has that work ethic to work with weights. Thats why I never put my faith on such scenario.

Gordon Hayward. It's one of the reasons why I compare Doncic to Hayward. Hayward was considered a clearly below average athlete coming into the league. Getting in better shape made him much more explosive.

[Thespianoid]

Ok, how many players gets more athletic when they leave their teen years?

Gordon Hayward. It's one of the reasons why I compare Doncic to Hayward. Hayward was considered a clearly below average athlete coming into the league. Getting in better shape made him much more explosive.

to add to this

James Harden
Aaron Gordon
Zach Lavine
Rudy Gobert
Josh Richardson
Khris Middleton
Al Horford
Paul Millsap
Kyle Korver
DeMarre Carroll
Patrick Patterson

and many more.

all of them have spent considerable time at P3 and improved their movement capabilities. No one is going to go from being Kyle Anderson to Giannis, but they all improved in a variety of athletic areas.

[RookieStar]

BTW, regarding to my question earlier, is there any indication or hindrance that would make a road block to Luka coming over after he was drafted? Like contract?promise?wife or gf?

Only barrier i think would he desire to first win euroleague with Real, team he spent his last 6 or 7 years playing for. His gf is Slovenian and as far as i remember her being mentioned in slovenian media during eurobasket is attending university in slovenia (and doing/or did some modelling work for slovenian underwear company). So based on that no problem with beeing apart i guess.
So far he did not say anything about declaring, just that he is thinking about Real right now. And probably media is probably "kindly asked" not to bother him during season with this topic.

so it's not sure yet he is coming over next season? man, that's gonna hurt his draft stock. lots of team picking in the lottery wants to have someone who can contribute right away.

as a magic fan, we still have the fran vasquez saga that's giving. us nightmares. that's why i asked about gf/wife. he could be a pu$$y and let his gf dictate his life and not come over

[MemphisX]

I really don't know why is it so hard to understand that NCAA teams mostly only have ZERO, 1 or 2 players that MIGHT one day end up in the NBA.

Only a select few teams regularly have multiple players that end up getting drafted to the NBA (like Kentucky).

Let's take a look at NBA draftees from a supposedly very strong ACC conference, where Bagley's Duke is in:
https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Atlantic-Coast-Conference/1/nba-draft

These are all drafted players from ACC, meaning 15 (FIFTEEN) teams! So yes, from THE WHOLE CONFERENCE, a supposedly very strong conference, only around 10-15 (TEN-FIFTEEN) players get drafted every season and many of them are from Bagley's own team!

Now consider that other prospects play against a similar, or mostly EVEN INFERIOR competition!

P.s.: Not even mentioning that they're KIDS!

Do you want to wager on the number of All Stars produced by the ACC vs Euroleague in the last 20 years because i know using the entire ncaa would just be unfair.

I am not dismissing how tough the Euroleague is overall mainly due to the age of the players. However, i am sure the Mountain West Conference would be tough also if they could keep their players through their 30s and then compare themselves to those limited to current ncaa rules.

So once again there is more NBA level talent in the ncaa vs the Euroleague.

[Nikson]

I really don't know why is it so hard to understand that NCAA teams mostly only have ZERO, 1 or 2 players that MIGHT one day end up in the NBA.

Only a select few teams regularly have multiple players that end up getting drafted to the NBA (like Kentucky).

Let's take a look at NBA draftees from a supposedly very strong ACC conference, where Bagley's Duke is in:
https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Atlantic-Coast-Conference/1/nba-draft

These are all drafted players from ACC, meaning 15 (FIFTEEN) teams! So yes, from THE WHOLE CONFERENCE, a supposedly very strong conference, only around 10-15 (TEN-FIFTEEN) players get drafted every season and many of them are from Bagley's own team!

Now consider that other prospects play against a similar, or mostly EVEN INFERIOR competition!

P.s.: Not even mentioning that they're KIDS!

Do you want to wager on the number of All Stars produced by the ACC vs Euroleague in the last 20 years because i know using the entire ncaa would just be unfair.

I am not dismissing how tough the Euroleague is overall mainly due to the age of the players. However, i am sure the Mountain West Conference would be tough also if they could keep their players through their 30s and then compare themselves to those limited to current ncaa rules.

So once again there is more NBA level talent in the ncaa vs the Euroleague.

Yes. But this is not the theme at all.
We are comparing competition Luka is playing against and competition NCAA prospects are playing against.

To reduce it to the absurd, if someone at 18 would really produce against 7 years old KD, 5 years old LBJ, 10 years old DWade, 4 years old SCurry.... would that production be smart to compare to production against 25-33 years old pro players? NBA or EL doesn’t matter.

Now you can gradually add 1, 2...10,11..., 15,20 years to mentioned players as a competition to the same 18 years old player....

See.. ?

[KD95]

I really don't know why is it so hard to understand that NCAA teams mostly only have ZERO, 1 or 2 players that MIGHT one day end up in the NBA.

Only a select few teams regularly have multiple players that end up getting drafted to the NBA (like Kentucky).

Let's take a look at NBA draftees from a supposedly very strong ACC conference, where Bagley's Duke is in:
https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Atlantic-Coast-Conference/1/nba-draft

These are all drafted players from ACC, meaning 15 (FIFTEEN) teams! So yes, from THE WHOLE CONFERENCE, a supposedly very strong conference, only around 10-15 (TEN-FIFTEEN) players get drafted every season and many of them are from Bagley's own team!

Now consider that other prospects play against a similar, or mostly EVEN INFERIOR competition!

P.s.: Not even mentioning that they're KIDS!

Do you want to wager on the number of All Stars produced by the ACC vs Euroleague in the last 20 years because i know using the entire ncaa would just be unfair.

I am not dismissing how tough the Euroleague is overall mainly due to the age of the players. However, i am sure the Mountain West Conference would be tough also if they could keep their players through their 30s and then compare themselves to those limited to current ncaa rules.

So once again there is more NBA level talent in the ncaa vs the Euroleague.

Nobody is saying that the EuroLeague produces more All Star level players than the NCAA.

What people are trying to say is that just because the NCAA has more players who WILL BECOME All Star level players in their prime, that doesn't make the NCAA, the competition they play in while they are ~19 years old kids better than the EuroLeague, the 2nd best PROFESSIONAL basketball league in the world. The vast majority of NCAA players are not going to be good enough to play any level of professional basketball at any point in their life. Yes, the NCAA has ~55 players - obviously much more than the EL has - who will get drafted in the NBA and some of them will become much better players than anyone playing in the EuroLeague, but that doesn't really matter when we compare the overall level of the competitons they play in right now.

[UcanUwill]

Do you want to wager on the number of All Stars produced by the ACC vs Euroleague in the last 20 years because i know using the entire ncaa would just be unfair.

I am not dismissing how tough the Euroleague is overall mainly due to the age of the players. However, i am sure the Mountain West Conference would be tough also if they could keep their players through their 30s and then compare themselves to those limited to current ncaa rules.

So once again there is more NBA level talent in the ncaa vs the Euroleague.

NCAA has more AAA prospect talent, not NBA level talent at current moment, there is a huge difference. There are hundreds of professional teams in Europe, and only 16 play in the Euroleague. And only best vet players who play their way to the top end up on those teams. Some people do not realize that, they think Euroleague just get leftover trash without any sifting process, Euroleague bar is way above NCAA level.
Once again I bring Dragan Bender or Hezonaja as example, prospects who were equivalent to five star all American, and they ended up in the NBA obviously as lottery picks. But was Bender ever better than average Euroleague power forward, not at all. There is a difference between 19 year old with big potential vs veteran player who played this way to top 16 team in Europe.

[Nikson]

What is more interesting, majority of Draft participants from Europe is not YET good enough to even play and doesn’t play in Euroleague.
So, they will play in NBA but they haven’t played in Euroleague.


But that doesn’t say nothing in direction Euroleague is better than NBA.

[SportsGuy8]

I really don't know why is it so hard to understand that NCAA teams mostly only have ZERO, 1 or 2 players that MIGHT one day end up in the NBA.

Only a select few teams regularly have multiple players that end up getting drafted to the NBA (like Kentucky).

Let's take a look at NBA draftees from a supposedly very strong ACC conference, where Bagley's Duke is in:
https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Atlantic-Coast-Conference/1/nba-draft

These are all drafted players from ACC, meaning 15 (FIFTEEN) teams! So yes, from THE WHOLE CONFERENCE, a supposedly very strong conference, only around 10-15 (TEN-FIFTEEN) players get drafted every season and many of them are from Bagley's own team!

Now consider that other prospects play against a similar, or mostly EVEN INFERIOR competition!

P.s.: Not even mentioning that they're KIDS!

Do you want to wager on the number of All Stars produced by the ACC vs Euroleague in the last 20 years because i know using the entire ncaa would just be unfair.

I am not dismissing how tough the Euroleague is overall mainly due to the age of the players. However, i am sure the Mountain West Conference would be tough also if they could keep their players through their 30s and then compare themselves to those limited to current ncaa rules.

So once again there is more NBA level talent in the ncaa vs the Euroleague.

Against how many of these future All-Stars do you think these college prospects play in a whole season?

If they're lucky they play against 1 or 2, but many don't even play against any future All-Stars. Instead they mostly play vs. vastly inferior competition that's going to eventually end up playing in China or even worse. That's the main point.

How does the number of future All-Stars in college even matter when it comes to the level of competition when they most likely aren't even going to face each other?

[XTraderXL]

BTW, regarding to my question earlier, is there any indication or hindrance that would make a road block to Luka coming over after he was drafted? Like contract?promise?wife or gf?

Only barrier i think would he desire to first win euroleague with Real, team he spent his last 6 or 7 years playing for. His gf is Slovenian and as far as i remember her being mentioned in slovenian media during eurobasket is attending university in slovenia (and doing/or did some modelling work for slovenian underwear company). So based on that no problem with beeing apart i guess.
So far he did not say anything about declaring, just that he is thinking about Real right now. And probably media is probably "kindly asked" not to bother him during season with this topic.

so it's not sure yet he is coming over next season? man, that's gonna hurt his draft stock. lots of team picking in the lottery wants to have someone who can contribute right away.

as a magic fan, we still have the fran vasquez saga that's giving. us nightmares. that's why i asked about gf/wife. he could be a pu$$y and let his gf dictate his life and not come over

Its not 100% but I think its 99%. There is no reason for him to stay in Europe. Of course he will not be telling the media he is going to the NBA nex year, especially in the middle of a season Real is trying to win the EL. That would be stupid.

He will get drafted high which means a lot more money than he is getting now, good amount of playing time, better training, better competition, adapting to the lifestyle at a younger age is also important. There are many more pros than cons to him coming over so I really dont see a way he would stay in Europe.

[realEAST]

I think only way Doncic stays in Europe is if he suffers major injury, which would take longer to come back from - he might be under less stress doing it in Europe, and it might be easier to shake off some rust in familiar surroundings like ACB/Euroleague.

[UcanUwill]

I think only way Doncic stays in Europe is if he suffers major injury, which would take longer to come back from - he might be under less stress doing it in Europe, and it might be easier to shake off some rust in familiar surroundings like ACB/Euroleague.

If he doesn't win Euroleague MVP or ACB, he might stay for another year, I doubt injury would be the factor. If he suffers major injury, might as well get that NBA cash as soon as possible.

[blazeyo]

No reason for Doncic not to declare. His draft will only go down if he doesn't... it's a risk he can't take.

It's even better to get drafted and get stashed for a year rather than skip the draft.

[realEAST]

I think only way Doncic stays in Europe is if he suffers major injury, which would take longer to come back from - he might be under less stress doing it in Europe, and it might be easier to shake off some rust in familiar surroundings like ACB/Euroleague.

If he doesn't win Euroleague MVP or ACB, he might stay for another year, I doubt injury would be the factor. If he suffers major injury, might as well get that NBA cash as soon as possible.

Maybe, although to me he seems pretty set on coming to NBA this year, and imo it is good decision. There is always option of coming back at 35 or so and trying then if he doesn't do it this year. In case of injury going to NBA has some clear advantages, even in process of recuperation, as well as with possibility of using the rest of the season for adjustment period. But being in familiar surroundings also means a lot in this case, and even from point of view of development, another year in Europe wouldn't be redundant. Hopefully he remains healthy, so we dont have to consider this at all.

[Mirotic12]

Already in these Doncic discussions, I have shown how both Sonny Weems and Ricky Rubio said to the media that EuroLeague is a harder league to play in than the NBA, due to the rules and reffing.

Now, Giannis Antetokounmpo says the same thing:

Watch on YouTube

Interviewer:

"If you stop at 40, you can play in EuroLeague until 60."

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"No, I don't think so. The EuroLeague is like the NBA now."

Interviewer:

"Does it rank that high for you?"

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"For sure. The players, the speed, the basketball. Strategically, the level is even better."

Interviewer:

"Do you watch any EuroLeague games?"

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"I do. I watch Panathinaikos, for Thanasis. Why wouldn't I watch my brother play?" In terms of tactics and strategy, EuroLeague ranks high, and the players, they're all so tall. The power forwards are now 2.10 meters (6'11")."

Interviewer:

"Shooting?"

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"They can shoot, just like in the NBA."

Interviewer:

"Since there is a big debate on it, do you think if you played in the EuroLeague, with less spacing on the court, that you would have adapted differently, or that you would have the same impact? Would you have different features?"

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"For sure, I'd have an impact. Because, I would've worked hard, and I would've found ways to make an impact. The basketball is just more difficult. There's not much spacing. The big men stay around the rim, in the painted area. It would've been harder, but I would've found a way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now we have Sonny Weems, Ricky Rubio, and Giannis, all officially on the record, as saying that yes, the rules and reffing differences make the EuroLeague harder and more difficult to compete in than the NBA is. Yet, we still have all kinds of people in these same Doncic discussions claiming that NCAA DI is a higher level of competition than EuroLeague.......

[Saberestar]

Already in these Doncic discussions, I have shown how both Sonny Weems and Ricky Rubio said to the media that EuroLeague is a harder league to play in than the NBA, due to the rules and reffing.

Now, Giannis Antetokounmpo says the same thing:

Watch on YouTube

Interviewer:

"If you stop at 40, you can play in EuroLeague until 60."

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"No, I don't think so. The EuroLeague is like the NBA now."

Interviewer:

"Does it rank that high for you?"

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"For sure. The players, the speed, the basketball. Strategically, the level is even better."

Interviewer:

"Do you watch any EuroLeague games?"

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"I do. I watch Panathinaikos, for Thanasis. Why wouldn't I watch my brother play?" In terms of tactics and strategy, EuroLeague ranks high, and the players, they're all so tall. The power forwards are now 2.10 meters (6'11")."

Interviewer:

"Shooting?"

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"They can shoot, just like in the NBA."

Interviewer:

"Since there is a big debate on it, do you think if you played in the EuroLeague, with less spacing on the court, that you would have adapted differently, or that you would have the same impact? Would you have different features?"

Giannis Antetokounmpo:

"For sure, I'd have an impact. Because, I would've worked hard, and I would've found ways to make an impact. The basketball is just more difficult. There's not much spacing. The big men stay around the rim, in the painted area. It would've been harder, but I would've found a way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now we have Sonny Weems, Ricky Rubio, and Giannis, all officially on the record, as saying that yes, the rules and reffing differences make the EuroLeague harder and more difficult to compete in than the NBA is. Yet, we still have all kinds of people in these same Doncic discussions claiming that NCAA DI is a higher level of competition than EuroLeague.......

Sonny Weems looked like LeBron playing in Europe a few years ago, and he signed with the Suns and he was terrible in the NBA.

The difference level of competition between the NBA and Euroleague is HUGE. It is not even funny.

Regarding the NCAA and Euroleague...I think it is more difficult to play in Euroleague and produce good numbers for a young player because the competition is really serious and there are a lot of veteran players on every team.

BUT the talent pool at the top in the NCAA and Euroleague is close.

If you pick the 50 best players in the NCAA this season and the 50 currently best players in Euroleague I think that the NCAA has more pure talent, but obviosly younger and less ready to contribuite in his rookie season.

I like Doncic but he has physical limitations and I think that he is gonna struggle defending perimeter players in the NBA , so I would pick him out of the Top #3. I would select him around #5.

[Mirotic12]

Sonny Weems looked like LeBron playing in Europe a few years ago, and he signed with the Suns and he was terrible in the NBA.

The difference level of competition between the NBA and Euroleague is HUGE. It is not even funny.

The bolded part is 100% totally incorrect. Sonny Weems was many MILES away from being "LeBron of EuroLeague". He was nowhere remotely that good in Europe.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the whole "NCAA is better competition than EuroLeague" claims here in general...

As far as all of these continuing comments, from numerous posters here, that NCAA has more talent and better players than EuroLeague - that is just personal opinions, and not based in actual cold hard facts.

About 2% of NCAA players make it into serious professional leagues (about 4-5% total ever playing at least a single pro game anywhere). Less than 1% of NCAA players ever play a single game in NBA or EuroLeague. These are the facts, and the personal opinions are, "NCAA has more talent and better players than EuroLeague."

At some point, facts do need to outweigh people's contrary to facts personal views.

And as some others have pointed out here already....very few European NBA draft picks even play in EuroLeague level. There are about 600 professional basketball teams in Europe, and an entire 16 that play at the EuroLeague level. The idea that literally hundreds of amateur NCAA college youth teams in the US, are better than the top 16 (out of 600) men's fully professional teams in Europe, and "have more talent" also, is basically completely nonsensical and totally illogical.

So you have 16 top pro teams in Europe, with each of them having at least 13 fully pro men's players, playing at a level less that only 1% of NCAA players will ever reach.........and somehow this league has "less talent and lower competition" than the NCAA, with hundreds of teams of players that consist of 75 to 100 percent (depending on the team) of players that will never play pro....

that even among the very best of the best of the best NCAA teams, only 4-5 players will ever sniff NBA or EuroLeague (where each team has 10-12 rotation players).....

there are things known as math and statistics, and in no way imaginable or possible, do they show NCAA is better or more talented competition than EuroLeague, or any other decent pro league for that matter.

I remember a few years ago, serious arguments and debates that the Kentucky team that almost went undefeated would have won EuroLeague. Every well-known basketball discussion site had such threads going, with the definite majority of people saying it was so. Now, you can look back at that Kentucky team and see exactly how it ended up........take that same roster, with those same guys now being grown men, and no way does it make a EuroLeague Final Four. But at the time, when they were still kids, people argued it would win EuroLeague. The whole argument was "because they have more talent than any team in EuroLeague".....

but after the fact, no they did not, but you won't see any threads being bumped admitting that.

[Saberestar]

Sonny Weems looked like LeBron playing in Europe a few years ago, and he signed with the Suns and he was terrible in the NBA.

The difference level of competition between the NBA and Euroleague is HUGE. It is not even funny.

The bolded part is 100% totally incorrect. Sonny Weems was many MILES away from being "LeBron of EuroLeague". He was nowhere remotely that good in Europe.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the whole "NCAA is better competition than EuroLeague" claims here in general...

As far as all of these continuing comments, from numerous posters here, that NCAA has more talent and better players than EuroLeague - that is just personal opinions, and not based in actual cold hard facts.

About 2% of NCAA players make it into serious professional leagues. Less than 1% of NCAA players ever play a single game in NBA or EuroLeague. These are the facts, and the personal opinions are, "NCAA has more talent and better players than EuroLeague."

At some point, facts do need to outweigh people's contrary to facts personal views.

Regarding Weems, he was the best wing in the Euroleague for at least a couple of years, playing for CSKA. He was a dominant player in the Euroleague, that is a fact.

And about the NCAA-EuroLeague comparation, I want to add that you need to pay attention at the top of the competition. There are more mediocre and average players in the EuroLeague, but the top TALENT is in the NCAA.

The best players in the NCAA have tremendous potential and would be probably the top players in the EuroLeague. Ayton, Young, Bridges, Carter.........and a lot more would be big time players in the EuroLeague right now, at least full time starters.