The TJ Warren Thread!

[Damkac]

I'm a big TJs supporter and didn't liked the idea to bench him in favor of Jackson but there is something wrong with our starting lineup. They always start the game terrible. Since it is a good time for experimenting maybe we really should try to start JJ and bring TJ from the bench? It looks like Warren needs some time to warm up while JJ plays with great energy from the first second he steps on the floor.

I wonder how would Warren react to coming from the bench. I don't see him protesting but may it hurt his confidence?

Anyway both TJ and JJ should play as much minutes as possible (in JJs case, until he fouls out )

[Bogyo]

Soooo... When are we finally fully admiting that he is only a good (not great!) scorer on a bad team? 6th guy at best.
The contract is great, the attitude is OK, but not much else is there. We hope he can add a bit better 3pt shooting, and a bit better defense, but I wouldn't put huge money on either. A reliable corner 3 is no miracle, it only takes 3 things: practice, practice, practice. I guess he hadn't done one of those so far, yet he has 50+ mill in the bank. We suck anyways, and he doesn't seem to be bothered all that much. I bet he'll be content coming off the bench behid JJ. I'd kill every mofo trying to take my spot, especially a rookie. Not our TJ! He is too much of a nice guy.


(And that's one of the reasons why his name comes up in tradetalks. Yet some ppl fail to understand, and cry and whimper every g*ddam time: "ooooo why do you want to trade TJ???")

[Revived]

The reason he can’t start is because he doesn’t defend or shoot 3s at a high level. At least one of those things are needed to be starting wing in today’s NBA. The better teams in the league have guys that can do both.

[NapoleonII]

Yup, TJ Warren is somehow the opposite of a 3 and D player, who are in demand all over the league.

[Bogyo]

Yup, TJ Warren is somehow the opposite of a 3 and D player, who are in demand all over the league.

You put it into one sentence, I needed a couple paragraphs! 1-O!

(Yes, he is still a good player on a very good contract, no I don't want to trade him unless he is in a package for a young star, etc...)

[Damkac]

I don't understand why some posters act like this board is in love with Warren and is overrating him like crazy and they feel like they have to convince us he is not a star.
I'm probably one of his biggest supporters and I newer said he future star or something. Don't need to remind us Warren can't shoot 3s and is average defender and rebounder. We all know this. But let's not ignore his biggest strengths: scoring close to the basket and moving without the ball. He is elite at this. Some of his layups are like a circus tricks.
He is also our most consistent player even if he have bad games from time to time.

So I don't think he is at best a 6th man. I think he is at least a great 6th man but may also be a solid starter.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

The reason he can’t start is because he doesn’t defend or shoot 3s at a high level. At least one of those things are needed to be starting wing in today’s NBA. The better teams in the league have guys that can do both.

Yup, TJ Warren is somehow the opposite of a 3 and D player, who are in demand all over the league.

Yup, TJ Warren is somehow the opposite of a 3 and D player, who are in demand all over the league.

You put it into one sentence, I needed a couple paragraphs! 1-O!

(Yes, he is still a good player on a very good contract, no I don't want to trade him unless he is in a package for a young star, etc...)

Uhh... did none of you watch last night's game? He locked up CJ McCollum. Played great defense. I'm not ready to declare him a great defender, but it's strange timing to insult the guy's D.

[jcsunsfan]

Its because once a narrative is established about a player, everyone parrots it, no questions asked. The media does it too.

[bwgood77]

Its because once a narrative is established about a player, everyone parrots it, no questions asked. The media does it too.

TJ hs improved defensively, but he's still got a ways to go. It's hard to change any media or casual fan narrative when the advanced numbers match the narrative. Of course when it comes down to him or Jackson, advanced numbers show he's been better than Jackson on the defensive side (and especially on the offensive side) but DRPM still has them both ranked near the bottom among small forwards....though of course they both have a better DRPM than Booker. Our whole team needs to work harder on D, and you can only put so much on the coaches. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/5

Though with DRPM, and especially the b-ref defensive stats, if your team regularly gets blown out, or has an avg scoring deficit of 8-10 ppg, then no one will look good according to the numbers, so you kind of have to look at them relative to one another.

[AtheJ415]

It's not out of the question for Warren to develop a 3 point shot. Plenty of guys have improved a lot later in their careers than he is at right now. If he does that he is a star imo.

[Walt_Uoob]

Does anyone have an example of a 'super 6th man' type player who is/was similar to TJ? I'm not sure I see him as that type. For that type of player I usually think of someone more ball-dominant and/or creative like Manu, Lou Williams, Barbosa, OKC Harden. And usually a guard.

Warren seems more like the glue guy / complementary starter who starts in front of the super 6th man. He doesn't need to control the ball to be effective so he makes life easier for the stars while playing alongside them rather than by filling their role while they rest.

But as much as I love TJ's game, the above is all the more reason he needs to work on his 3-pointer. Spacing the floor is a big part of being a complementary player who makes the stars' lives easier. I think he'll do it, but it looks like it will take a couple years.

[bwgood77]

Does anyone have an example of a 'super 6th man' type player who is/was similar to TJ? I'm not sure I see him as that type. For that type of player I usually think of someone more ball-dominant and/or creative like Manu, Lou Williams, Barbosa, OKC Harden. And usually a guard.

Warren seems more like the glue guy / complementary starter who starts in front of the super 6th man. He doesn't need to control the ball to be effective so he makes life easier for the stars while playing alongside them rather than by filling their role while they rest.

But as much as I love TJ's game, the above is all the more reason he needs to work on his 3-pointer. Spacing the floor is a big part of being a complementary player who makes the stars' lives easier. I think he'll do it, but it looks like it will take a couple years.

I don't know about similar but plenty of forwards, some who were mostly interior scorers and not necessarily ball dominant guys have won it...Kevin McHale won it twice, scoring between 18-20 ppg, didn't shoot 3s. Cliff Robinson won it with about 19ppg while shooting like 47% from 2 and 25% from 3.

Danny Manning was pretty much an mid range crafty scorer who might be the most like TJ who won it...and that was with us. Two of our other winners were forwards, Rodney Rogers and Eddie Johnson, though they both hit the 3 in those years (oddly enough, neither were great career 3 pt shooters, but won it with us).

Looking back at some of these past winners, Detlef Schrempf who won it, one year in his career averaged 19, 9.5 and 6 apg. I remember him being really good but that's crazy assist numbers for a forward.

Ultimately the criteria to win 6th moy usually comes down to being on SO good of a team, one of the best in the league, that their sixth man is really good too...and is a starter caliber player. You have seen Crawford and Lou win it more recently, and think of those types...or Manu, but typically it usually just comes down to being a really good reserve, or at least it used it.

About TJ's 3 pt shooting...looking at these numbers of our past winners, particularly EJ and Rodney, I could see they had their best 3pt % years with us those years, and they also had more attempts.

It reminded me of the most recent podcast in the pod thread with David Griffin talking about D'Antoni and the Suns...and saying that players will play with their most confidence and best offensively under D'Antoni because he will NEVER pull them for taking a bad 3, but he will ALWAYS pull them if they don't take an open 3, and it leads to players playing with a kind of fearlessness and confidence offensively that you don't usually see.

I have a feeling if TJ was playing for D'Antoni or Cotton, he would probably be shooting more and a lot better % from 3.

[Walt_Uoob]

Does anyone have an example of a 'super 6th man' type player who is/was similar to TJ? I'm not sure I see him as that type. For that type of player I usually think of someone more ball-dominant and/or creative like Manu, Lou Williams, Barbosa, OKC Harden. And usually a guard.

Warren seems more like the glue guy / complementary starter who starts in front of the super 6th man. He doesn't need to control the ball to be effective so he makes life easier for the stars while playing alongside them rather than by filling their role while they rest.

But as much as I love TJ's game, the above is all the more reason he needs to work on his 3-pointer. Spacing the floor is a big part of being a complementary player who makes the stars' lives easier. I think he'll do it, but it looks like it will take a couple years.

I don't know about similar but plenty of forwards, some who were mostly interior scorers and not necessarily ball dominant guys have won it...Kevin McHale won it twice, scoring between 18-20 ppg, didn't shoot 3s. Cliff Robinson won it with about 19ppg while shooting like 47% from 2 and 25% from 3.

Danny Manning was pretty much an mid range crafty scorer who might be the most like TJ who won it...and that was with us. Two of our other winners were forwards, Rodney Rogers and Eddie Johnson, though they both hit the 3 in those years (oddly enough, neither were great career 3 pt shooters, but won it with us).

Looking back at some of these past winners, Detlef Schrempf who won it, one year in his career averaged 19, 9.5 and 6 apg. I remember him being really good but that's crazy assist numbers for a forward.

Ultimately the criteria to win 6th moy usually comes down to being on SO good of a team, one of the best in the league, that their sixth man is really good too...and is a starter caliber player. You have seen Crawford and Lou win it more recently, and think of those types...or Manu, but typically it usually just comes down to being a really good reserve, or at least it used it.

About TJ's 3 pt shooting...looking at these numbers of our past winners, particularly EJ and Rodney, I could see they had their best 3pt % years with us those years, and they also had more attempts.

It reminded me of the most recent podcast in the pod thread with David Griffin talking about D'Antoni and the Suns...and saying that players will play with their most confidence and best offensively under D'Antoni because he will NEVER pull them for taking a bad 3, but he will ALWAYS pull them if they don't take an open 3, and it leads to players playing with a kind of fearlessness and confidence offensively that you don't usually see.

I have a feeling if TJ was playing for D'Antoni or Cotton, he would probably be shooting more and a lot better % from 3.

Awesome post! Thanks for the response and perspective. I do remember Rogers and Robinson from the early days of my NBA fandom (I was a late bloomer in college) so when you put it that way it's easier for me to see TJ in that way. I was trying to picture him as the leader of a great second unit or a microwave-off-the-bench type and it didn't quite jive. But I can totally see him as the 6th-best guy (or at least the 3rd-best forward) on a really good team.

[bwgood77]

Does anyone have an example of a 'super 6th man' type player who is/was similar to TJ? I'm not sure I see him as that type. For that type of player I usually think of someone more ball-dominant and/or creative like Manu, Lou Williams, Barbosa, OKC Harden. And usually a guard.

Warren seems more like the glue guy / complementary starter who starts in front of the super 6th man. He doesn't need to control the ball to be effective so he makes life easier for the stars while playing alongside them rather than by filling their role while they rest.

But as much as I love TJ's game, the above is all the more reason he needs to work on his 3-pointer. Spacing the floor is a big part of being a complementary player who makes the stars' lives easier. I think he'll do it, but it looks like it will take a couple years.

I don't know about similar but plenty of forwards, some who were mostly interior scorers and not necessarily ball dominant guys have won it...Kevin McHale won it twice, scoring between 18-20 ppg, didn't shoot 3s. Cliff Robinson won it with about 19ppg while shooting like 47% from 2 and 25% from 3.

Danny Manning was pretty much an mid range crafty scorer who might be the most like TJ who won it...and that was with us. Two of our other winners were forwards, Rodney Rogers and Eddie Johnson, though they both hit the 3 in those years (oddly enough, neither were great career 3 pt shooters, but won it with us).

Looking back at some of these past winners, Detlef Schrempf who won it, one year in his career averaged 19, 9.5 and 6 apg. I remember him being really good but that's crazy assist numbers for a forward.

Ultimately the criteria to win 6th moy usually comes down to being on SO good of a team, one of the best in the league, that their sixth man is really good too...and is a starter caliber player. You have seen Crawford and Lou win it more recently, and think of those types...or Manu, but typically it usually just comes down to being a really good reserve, or at least it used it.

About TJ's 3 pt shooting...looking at these numbers of our past winners, particularly EJ and Rodney, I could see they had their best 3pt % years with us those years, and they also had more attempts.

It reminded me of the most recent podcast in the pod thread with David Griffin talking about D'Antoni and the Suns...and saying that players will play with their most confidence and best offensively under D'Antoni because he will NEVER pull them for taking a bad 3, but he will ALWAYS pull them if they don't take an open 3, and it leads to players playing with a kind of fearlessness and confidence offensively that you don't usually see.

I have a feeling if TJ was playing for D'Antoni or Cotton, he would probably be shooting more and a lot better % from 3.

Awesome post! Thanks for the response and perspective. I do remember Rogers and Robinson from the early days of my NBA fandom (I was a late bloomer in college) so when you put it that way it's easier for me to see TJ in that way. I was trying to picture him as the leader of a great second unit or a microwave-off-the-bench type and it didn't quite jive. But I can totally see him as the 6th-best guy (or at least the 3rd-best forward) on a really good team.

And often you can be better than the 6th best player. Antawn Jamison won it with the Mavs and had the second highest PER (Nash was 3rd that year on that team)..then Odom won it with the Lakers and was no worse than their 3rd best player....and Harden, and Ginobili. https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/smoy.html

[Revived]

It's not out of the question for Warren to develop a 3 point shot. Plenty of guys have improved a lot later in their careers than he is at right now. If he does that he is a star imo.

I would have faith in him improving his 3 pt shot if he was at least attempting quite a few of them. Fact that he barely averages like 1 three pt attempt a game despite him getting wide open looks out there because defenses want him to shoot it tells me that he may have just given up on his 3pt shot at least temporarily.

I think there’s a higher Jackson improves his 3pt shot because he at least attempts quite a few of them.

Warren is so skilled offensively that he’s capable of learning to shoot but he just has to want it himself. I think him scoring 20pts a game on decent efficiency makes him think that he doesn’t need to shoot 3s since he can score well anyway.

[thamadkant]

Nothing wrong with Warren as 6th man.

He actually has a chance of being a 6MOTY if Suns just win games. He won't be MVP with his game style unless he puts up 30ppg.. Might as be an elite 6th man and get respect at that role.

[HoopsMalone]

I gotta say Im really disappointed in Warren. I thought he'd be a pretty good NBA player but it's about time to write him off. Just way too bad defensively to be a contributor in this league.

Maybe I'll give him one more season but after that I'm all out on Warren.

Honestly i don't believe the Suns have drafted this poorly over the years. Every single guy they've drafted the last decade has been a horrendous defender. Something is wrong internally with this organization.

I think they need to clean house with their roster and staff and just start completely from scratch at this point.

[Saberestar]

I gotta say Im really disappointed in Warren. I thought he'd be a pretty good NBA player but it's about time to write him off. Just way too bad defensively to be a contributor in this league.

Maybe I'll give him one more season but after that I'm all out on Warren.

Honestly i don't believe the Suns have drafted this poorly over the years. Every single guy they've drafted the last decade has been a horrendous defender. Something is wrong internally with this organization.

I think they need to clean house with their roster and staff and just start completely from scratch at this point.

#notsureifserious.

[HoopsMalone]

I gotta say Im really disappointed in Warren. I thought he'd be a pretty good NBA player but it's about time to write him off. Just way too bad defensively to be a contributor in this league.

Maybe I'll give him one more season but after that I'm all out on Warren.

Honestly i don't believe the Suns have drafted this poorly over the years. Every single guy they've drafted the last decade has been a horrendous defender. Something is wrong internally with this organization.

I think they need to clean house with their roster and staff and just start completely from scratch at this point.

#notsureifserious.

Yeah I mean I'm a huge TJ fan. I really, really thought he'd figure out a way to be a solid NBA player but he just hasn't been able to turn the corner. Grateful for how amazing he was at State. Easily one of the greatest scorers in ACC history. But his game just hasn't translated to the NBA. He needs to learn how to shoot threes and become at least a passable defender or he's just going to be another guy stuck on losing teams his whole career.

[Mulhollanddrive]

19 points, 5 rebounds on 50% FG with a $50m contract is the definition of a solid NBA player.