2018 Draft Thread #6

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Don’t get me wrong I like Doncic but he just doesn’t move well. His north south speed is decent. But I look at overall movement when it comes to evaluating players. Doncic needs to improve his attack handles as well. He has good ball control and doesn’t make many mistakes but his moves are sooo predictable and slow. Honestly I know all of Doncic moves. I was watching him play a game a week and a half ago and I believe he scored 27. But he was able to bully a smaller guard and he got some open looks. They finally put a semi athletic wing on Doncic and he was getting clamped up. He had to use ball screens to get any separation. That wing player that was guarding him would be below average in the NBA. I still think Doncic will be a great playmaker in a fast offense. I think in the halfcourt setting he will struggle if he can’t constantly get ball screens.

Why wouldn’t you want him getting ball screens? His decision making is elite. You draft him you better run him in PnR/PnP all game long.

I would love him in ball screens and he is elite at them. But as an elite player you have to be able to punish players in iso situations when you get the switch. Doncic problem is that sometimes when the pass is not there and he gets the switch he is unable to beat his man off the dribble which leads to a bad shot or a contested step back J. In the NBA the bigs are more mobile and have more length. Doncic is a clever passer but the pass is not always there. In the NBA if you run a 1-4 pickn roll you have guys like Draymond, AD, Ibaka, Gordon, Gianis, that will step out in gaurd you.

He’s 18. Attacking the switch will come in time. It won’t be long before it’s automatic.

[wonderboy2]

Why wouldn’t you want him getting ball screens? His decision making is elite. You draft him you better run him in PnR/PnP all game long.

I would love him in ball screens and he is elite at them. But as an elite player you have to be able to punish players in iso situations when you get the switch. Doncic problem is that sometimes when the pass is not there and he gets the switch he is unable to beat his man off the dribble which leads to a bad shot or a contested step back J. In the NBA the bigs are more mobile and have more length. Doncic is a clever passer but the pass is not always there. In the NBA if you run a 1-4 pickn roll you have guys like Draymond, AD, Ibaka, Gordon, Gianis, that will step out in gaurd you.

He’s 18. Attacking the switch will come in time. It won’t be long before it’s automatic.

I agree that he is young just like Ayton, Bagley,JJJ, Bamba. Like I said give me anyone of these guys and I would be thrilled. But it will only get harder for Doncic in the NBA. The thing Doncic has going for him is that he seems to legitimately love playing basketball and those guys do seem to improve. But in order for him to be great those attack handles need to improve to overcompensate for his lack of burst and first step.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

I would love him in ball screens and he is elite at them. But as an elite player you have to be able to punish players in iso situations when you get the switch. Doncic problem is that sometimes when the pass is not there and he gets the switch he is unable to beat his man off the dribble which leads to a bad shot or a contested step back J. In the NBA the bigs are more mobile and have more length. Doncic is a clever passer but the pass is not always there. In the NBA if you run a 1-4 pickn roll you have guys like Draymond, AD, Ibaka, Gordon, Gianis, that will step out in gaurd you.

He’s 18. Attacking the switch will come in time. It won’t be long before it’s automatic.

I agree that he is young just like Ayton, Bagley,JJJ, Bamba. Like I said give me anyone of these guys and I would be thrilled. But it will only get harder for Doncic in the NBA. The thing Doncic has going for him is that he seems to legitimately love playing basketball and those guys do seem to improve. But in order for him to be great those attack handles need to improve to overcompensate for his lack of burst and first step.

His first step and burst are fine it’ll take him a little bit to get acclimated to the speed of the game and to get his body in peak NBA form but it’ll happen

Your earlier example about the switch leading to a bad shot is what won’t happen that’s not him.

[bearadonisdna]

Don’t get me wrong I like Doncic but he just doesn’t move well. His north south speed is decent. But I look at overall movement when it comes to evaluating players. Doncic needs to improve his attack handles as well. He has good ball control and doesn’t make many mistakes but his moves are sooo predictable and slow. Honestly I know all of Doncic moves. I was watching him play a game a week and a half ago and I believe he scored 27. But he was able to bully a smaller guard and he got some open looks. They finally put a semi athletic wing on Doncic and he was getting clamped up. He had to use ball screens to get any separation. That wing player that was guarding him would be below average in the NBA. I still think Doncic will be a great playmaker in a fast offense. I think in the halfcourt setting he will struggle if he can’t constantly get ball screens.

Why wouldn’t you want him getting ball screens? His decision making is elite. You draft him you better run him in PnR/PnP all game long.

I would love him in ball screens and he is elite at them. But as an elite player you have to be able to punish players in iso situations when you get the switch. Doncic problem is that sometimes when the pass is not there and he gets the switch he is unable to beat his man off the dribble which leads to a bad shot or a contested step back J. In the NBA the bigs are more mobile and have more length. Doncic is a clever passer but the pass is not always there. In the NBA if you run a 1-4 pickn roll you have guys like Draymond, AD, Ibaka, Gordon, Gianis, that will step out in gaurd you.

I totally understand what you mean. About reliance on the pnr to get offense. Its an interesting conversation but im not a big fan of pnr offense to begin with.

[Red Larrivee]

Look man i dont really like talking bad about doncic.

Basically “if he needs a ball screen “ he cant get his own shot. Thats a laymans perspective not at all discrediting what doncic has proven in euro league.

Doncic isn't a high volume isolation player, if that's what you mean. I don't know why you'd want him to be when he's ridiculously good at running P&R.

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[DuckIII]

Thinking Dunn should be the long term starting PG has become a pretty good litmus test for posters who have no **** idea what they are talking about.

I think completely dismissing that possibility is a better litmus test.

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So is whether a person always says the same thing regardless of changing evidence and then says it really loudly and with increased frequency when that evidence temporarily shifts in their favor.

The Dunn discussion isn't even interesting unless there is a special point guard prospect for us to draft or one becomes available in free agency. And neither look likely when analyzing the field. Barring something unexpected, he's our starting point guard next year so its still a wait and see game with what is currently mixed evidence.

[TheSuzerain]

Thinking Dunn should be the long term starting PG has become a pretty good litmus test for posters who have no **** idea what they are talking about.

I think completely dismissing that possibility is a better litmus test.

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So is whether a person always says the same thing regardless of changing evidence and then says it really loudly and with increased frequency when that evidence temporarily shifts in their favor.

The evidence hasn't really changed. I don't think Dunn's TS% ever got above 50% at any point this season. His On/Off and +/- has always been poor (even relative to other Bulls players).

He came close to breaking the lofty 1 Win Share threshold, but his recent run of poor form has him fallen back to 0.5.

[bearadonisdna]

Look man i dont really like talking bad about doncic.

Basically “if he needs a ball screen “ he cant get his own shot. Thats a laymans perspective not at all discrediting what doncic has proven in euro league.

Doncic isn't a high volume isolation player, if that's what you mean. I don't know why you'd want him to be when he's ridiculously good at running P&R.

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Isolation isnt that important to me. Teams can force it so the ability to be successful in it isnt a deal breaker but still a resourceful skill.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Look man i dont really like talking bad about doncic.

Basically “if he needs a ball screen “ he cant get his own shot. Thats a laymans perspective not at all discrediting what doncic has proven in euro league.

Doncic isn't a high volume isolation player, if that's what you mean. I don't know why you'd want him to be when he's ridiculously good at running P&R.

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Isolation isnt that important to me. Teams can force it so the ability to be successful in it isnt a deal breaker but still a resourceful skill.

So if your not pro ISO or pro PnR what kind of offense do you like?

[TheSuzerain]

Dunn looks pretty comparable to Mudiay who was dealt for a future 2nd rounder.

Dunn is quite plainly inferior to Elfrid Payton who was dealt for a 2nd rounder.

That such a player would impact who we draft in the top 10 in any way is absolutely absurd.

[bearadonisdna]

Doncic isn't a high volume isolation player, if that's what you mean. I don't know why you'd want him to be when he's ridiculously good at running P&R.

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Isolation isnt that important to me. Teams can force it so the ability to be successful in it isnt a deal breaker but still a resourceful skill.

So if your not pro ISO or pro PnR what kind of offense do you like?

Haha nice observation. Transition and creation off the dribble in the halfcourt. (Edit:Maybe off the ball screens.)
-ability to create their shot / offense as a top offensive option.

Its not like pnr and iso is are the only ways to play basketball right? I hope not but ill let you tell me before i figure it out.

I mean in some ways isolation is a big part of the game . Overall zero defenders on a scoring attempt is ideal, but otherwise being isolated to a singular defender is the next most desired outcome. (On scoring opportunites).

But who likes seeing a guy go 1 - on 5 in obvious iso situations. Yeah kinda boring.
Pnr is fine and dandy but it requires an extra level of execution imo.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Isolation isnt that important to me. Teams can force it so the ability to be successful in it isnt a deal breaker but still a resourceful skill.

So if your not pro ISO or pro PnR what kind of offense do you like?

Haha nice observation. Transition and creation off the dribble in the halfcourt.
-ability to create their shot / offense as a top offensive option.

Its not like pnr and iso is are the only ways to play basketball right? I hope not but ill let you tell me before i figure it out.

I mean in some ways isolation is a big part of the game . Overall zero defenders on a scoring attempt is ideal, but otherwise being isolated to a singular defender is the next most desired outcome. (On scoring opportunites).

But who likes seeing a guy go 1 - on 5 in obvious iso situations. Yeah kinda boring.
Pnr is fine and dandy but it requires an extra level of execution imo.

Creation off the dribble in a half court set? Isn’t that ISO?

[bearadonisdna]

So if your not pro ISO or pro PnR what kind of offense do you like?

Haha nice observation. Transition and creation off the dribble in the halfcourt.
-ability to create their shot / offense as a top offensive option.

Its not like pnr and iso is are the only ways to play basketball right? I hope not but ill let you tell me before i figure it out.

I mean in some ways isolation is a big part of the game . Overall zero defenders on a scoring attempt is ideal, but otherwise being isolated to a singular defender is the next most desired outcome. (On scoring opportunites).

But who likes seeing a guy go 1 - on 5 in obvious iso situations. Yeah kinda boring.
Pnr is fine and dandy but it requires an extra level of execution imo.

Creation off the dribble in a half court set? Isn’t that ISO?

Yes and no.
When the ball goes to ground its a fluid situation so iso can be broken up.

[DuckIII]

Dunn looks pretty comparable to Mudiay who was dealt for a future 2nd rounder.

Dunn is quite plainly inferior to Elfrid Payton who was dealt for a 2nd rounder.

That such a player would impact who we draft in the top 10 in any way is absolutely absurd.

First, those moves were financial.

Second, I agree with your larger point. I would not consider Dunn in drafting. Which is why even though Doncic would be a primary ball handler, he’s still my #1.

The Dunn draft issue comes down to whether you like Young, in my opinion. If I liked Young a lot, I’d take him regardless of Dunn. But I don’t like him (or Sexton) with our top 10 pick. So that settles it for me.

[Dresden]

You're probably out on an island by yourself or with some very limited company on that one.

People act like Dunn is a finished product based on his age I find hilarious.

1. He has a long way to go to be a starting PG

2. He's already come along way

3. Let's see what he looks like after a summer of work with Fred in this offense and on that jumper

It all depends on what you mean by "starting pg". Patty Mills starts for the Spurs- he's averaging less than 10 ppg and less than 3 assists. Dunn has a long way to go to be an all-star pg, but a lot of teams have some pretty marginal players at pg, which you can do if the rest of the team is really good. If Dunn just improves a few things- stop making careless turnovers, able to finish better, and able to knock down a 3, he can be serviceable to even good.

If there was a top pg available where we pick in the draft, I doubt the FO would have any qualms about taking that player- I don't think they're locked into Dunn for the next 7 years. But until someone better comes along, and/or until we are sure Dunn is not going to fix some of these issues, he's better than anyone else we have, and it makes sense to keep working with him to see if he can work out.

[Dresden]

Dunn looks pretty comparable to Mudiay who was dealt for a future 2nd rounder.

Dunn is quite plainly inferior to Elfrid Payton who was dealt for a 2nd rounder.

That such a player would impact who we draft in the top 10 in any way is absolutely absurd.

But Payton is in his fourth year, and has pretty much played starters minutes since his first day in the league. So he's got about 2.5-3 years more development time in the nba than Kris has. If Dunn had been in the league that long, I would agree, but he hasn't been.

[bearadonisdna]

Dunn looks pretty comparable to Mudiay who was dealt for a future 2nd rounder.

Dunn is quite plainly inferior to Elfrid Payton who was dealt for a 2nd rounder.

That such a player would impact who we draft in the top 10 in any way is absolutely absurd.

But Payton is in his fourth year, and has pretty much played starters minutes since his first day in the league. So he's got about 2.5-3 years more development time in the nba than Kris has. If Dunn had been in the league that long, I would agree, but he hasn't been.

Yes a voice of reason. Nitpicking adv stats with kris is popular and is 24 so pretty close to retirement but theres a lot of evidence that kris is a legit nba player and only in his second year with less nba miles.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

I would love him in ball screens and he is elite at them. But as an elite player you have to be able to punish players in iso situations when you get the switch. Doncic problem is that sometimes when the pass is not there and he gets the switch he is unable to beat his man off the dribble which leads to a bad shot or a contested step back J. In the NBA the bigs are more mobile and have more length. Doncic is a clever passer but the pass is not always there. In the NBA if you run a 1-4 pickn roll you have guys like Draymond, AD, Ibaka, Gordon, Gianis, that will step out in gaurd you.

He’s 18. Attacking the switch will come in time. It won’t be long before it’s automatic.

I agree that he is young just like Ayton, Bagley,JJJ, Bamba. Like I said give me anyone of these guys and I would be thrilled. But it will only get harder for Doncic in the NBA. The thing Doncic has going for him is that he seems to legitimately love playing basketball and those guys do seem to improve. But in order for him to be great those attack handles need to improve to overcompensate for his lack of burst and first step.

And what, it's going to get easier for Ayton, Bagley, JJJ and Bamba?

If anything, the adjustment will be easier for Doncic than the other guys, considering he's been playing against grown-ass professionals instead of a bunch of kids.

Doncic has already played 42 games this year, and 67 last year. It's going to be much, much easier for a guy who's used to playing 60+ games a season to adjust to an 82-game schedule than for guys who will play 40 this year at the most (if their team gets to the NCAA Championship Game).

[ArizonaBullsFan]

Dunn looks pretty comparable to Mudiay who was dealt for a future 2nd rounder.

Dunn is quite plainly inferior to Elfrid Payton who was dealt for a 2nd rounder.

That such a player would impact who we draft in the top 10 in any way is absolutely absurd.

But Payton is in his fourth year, and has pretty much played starters minutes since his first day in the league. So he's got about 2.5-3 years more development time in the nba than Kris has. If Dunn had been in the league that long, I would agree, but he hasn't been.

Yes a voice of reason. Nitpicking adv stats with kris is popular and is 24 so pretty close to retirement but theres a lot of evidence that kris is a legit nba player and only in his second year with less nba miles.

LOL, yeah if advanced stats are so important and all-telling, I have to wonder why teams even bother employing scouts any more?

NBA teams have access to much more detailed advanced stats than us, why do they all waste a couple million dollars a year on scouting? It just doesn't make any sense...

[3noD]

Thinking Dunn should be the long term starting PG has become a pretty good litmus test for posters who have no **** idea what they are talking about.

I think completely dismissing that possibility is a better litmus test.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

So is whether a person always says the same thing regardless of changing evidence and then says it really loudly and with increased frequency when that evidence temporarily shifts in their favor.

The Dunn discussion isn't even interesting unless there is a special point guard prospect for us to draft or one becomes available in free agency. And neither look likely when analyzing the field. Barring something unexpected, he's our starting point guard next year so its still a wait and see game with what is currently mixed evidence.

There’s 2 players who could be really special and could provide in areas where Dunn is struggling right now. And that’s Doncic and Young. Doncic is particularly interesting because you can play him and Dunn together.


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