GreatWhiteStiff wrote:Give mirotic12 an inch he will argue about euroleague for hours. Lets just stop arguing with him about how great euroleague is. He thinks its great and his mind wont change, so lets agree euroleague is a great, great league.
you're not wrong, but it seems like you've also missed the entire point of his post?
if someone asserts that Sonny Weems was dominant in the Euroleague as an example to discount the quality of the competition relative to the NBA/NCAA, and is rebutted by evidence showing that Weems did not in any shape or form dominate the Euroleague...
why hate on the poster? the information is good.
Mirotic is right here, I wouldn't call Weems dominant Euroleague, there really aren't any really dominant players in Euroleague, maybe Nando De Colo nowadays? But the guy is right about arguing with Mirotic lol. Mirotic will hypocritically claim or cherry pick anything that proves Euroleague is great. I understand that tactic, because I used to be that guy myself when I was young, I was hypocritical fanboy.
yeah I know. Mirotic really can go overboard in extolling the greatness of the Euroleague. But he's also not wrong at all in disproving the ridiculous claim the Weems was the LeBron of Euroleague.
Just the more relevant point at the time was his evidence, not his biases or posting habits.
I think it's incredibly difficult to find players that might dominate the Euroleague. With the lack of defensive 3 seconds and incredibly physical perimeter defense allowed, a player would have to be both physically and skill/IQ dominant to be able to combat any and all coverages, while putting up insane boxscore production in limited minutes. Basically you would need an all-time great basketball player. And I think that underlines just how difficult the level of competition is.
Clementine9 wrote:Missed shots are unfortunate, but it's the trends throughout the game that matter.
Choker wrote:The swing in how Raptors fans have supported and turned on Powell is a good case study of human behavior.
Thespianoid wrote: yeah I know. Mirotic really can go overboard in extolling the greatness of the Euroleague. But he's also not wrong at all in disproving the ridiculous claim the Weems was the LeBron of Euroleague.
Just the more relevant point at the time was his evidence, not his biases or posting habits.
I think it's incredibly difficult to find players that might dominate the Euroleague. With the lack of defensive 3 seconds and incredibly physical perimeter defense allowed, a player would have to be both physically and skill/IQ dominant to be able to combat any and all coverages, while putting up insane boxscore production in limited minutes. Basically you would need an all-time great basketball player. And I think that underlines just how difficult the level of competition is.
I used to believe that dominating Euroleague would be harder than the NBA, but I dont think that way anymore. The main reason why no one really dominates Euroleague is because players are just not that good, and the talent level between players is way more balanced in the Euroleague all around. What I mean is that the talent gap between Euroleague star and Euroleague role player is far smaller, than the gap between NBA star and NBA role player. Thats why Euroleague's shot attempts are spread out more, where NBA is the league where we have people people averaging 20FGAs and 30 points per game. But I am certain that most players who dominate NBA would easily dominate Euroleague as well. Just looking at scoring rates Nando and Doncic are putting, it is possible to average NBA type superstar numbers in Euroleague. The main difference is minutes per game.
Thespianoid wrote: yeah I know. Mirotic really can go overboard in extolling the greatness of the Euroleague. But he's also not wrong at all in disproving the ridiculous claim the Weems was the LeBron of Euroleague.
Just the more relevant point at the time was his evidence, not his biases or posting habits.
I think it's incredibly difficult to find players that might dominate the Euroleague. With the lack of defensive 3 seconds and incredibly physical perimeter defense allowed, a player would have to be both physically and skill/IQ dominant to be able to combat any and all coverages, while putting up insane boxscore production in limited minutes. Basically you would need an all-time great basketball player. And I think that underlines just how difficult the level of competition is.
I used to believe that dominating Euroleague would be harder than the NBA, but I dont think that way anymore. The main reason why no one really dominates Euroleague is because players are just not that good, and the talent level between players is way more balanced in the Euroleague all around. What I mean is that the talent gap between Euroleague star and Euroleague role player is far smaller, than the gap between NBA star and NBA role player. Thats why Euroleague's shot attempts are spread out more, where NBA is the league where we have people people averaging 20FGAs and 30 points per game. But I am certain that most players who dominate NBA would easily dominate Euroleague as well. Just looking at scoring rates Nando and Doncic are putting, it is possible to average NBA type superstar numbers in Euroleague. The main difference is minutes per game.
Yeah, it is pretty obvious that there are not "star" players in the EuroLeague because if someone plays really well then he goes to the NBA.
Bogdanovic and Teodosic were stars in EuroLeague and role players in the NBA. That shows you the huge difference.
Not that difficult to understand IMO. It is all about the overall talent of the players.
Doncic is basically averaging 23-8-6.5 per36 this season and while I do think he would actually already be a borderline All-Star in the NBA RIGHT NOW, there are obviously better players than him around. Harden is a good example. It's really hard seeing players like Harden, Durant etc. not put up substantially more than 30ppg per36 in Europe, something most would see as "dominating".
I do think a player like Westbrook would struggle, though. But fundamentally sound NBA stars definitely wouldn't.
SportsGuy8 wrote:Doncic is basically averaging 23-8-6.5 per36 this season and while I do think he would actually already be a borderline All-Star in the NBA RIGHT NOW, there are obviously better players than him around. Harden is a good example. It's really hard seeing players like Harden, Durant etc. not put up substantially more than 30ppg per36 in Europe, something most would see as "dominating".
I do think a player like Westbrook would struggle, though. But fundamentally sound NBA stars definitely wouldn't.
Westbrook would be Bo McCalebb is ridiculous steroids. I think like non shooting perimeter guys like Ben Simmons would have a hard time. When you look at Giannis in FIBA, obviously a worse level of competition by far, but he is doing worse than he does in the NBA. Europe is slower, more packed inside and relies on sets and half court more.
Thespianoid wrote: yeah I know. Mirotic really can go overboard in extolling the greatness of the Euroleague. But he's also not wrong at all in disproving the ridiculous claim the Weems was the LeBron of Euroleague.
Just the more relevant point at the time was his evidence, not his biases or posting habits.
I think it's incredibly difficult to find players that might dominate the Euroleague. With the lack of defensive 3 seconds and incredibly physical perimeter defense allowed, a player would have to be both physically and skill/IQ dominant to be able to combat any and all coverages, while putting up insane boxscore production in limited minutes. Basically you would need an all-time great basketball player. And I think that underlines just how difficult the level of competition is.
I used to believe that dominating Euroleague would be harder than the NBA, but I dont think that way anymore. The main reason why no one really dominates Euroleague is because players are just not that good, and the talent level between players is way more balanced in the Euroleague all around. What I mean is that the talent gap between Euroleague star and Euroleague role player is far smaller, than the gap between NBA star and NBA role player. Thats why Euroleague's shot attempts are spread out more, where NBA is the league where we have people people averaging 20FGAs and 30 points per game. But I am certain that most players who dominate NBA would easily dominate Euroleague as well. Just looking at scoring rates Nando and Doncic are putting, it is possible to average NBA type superstar numbers in Euroleague. The main difference is minutes per game.
I'm not saying it's harder than in the NBA. It's just the most difficult of any competition level pre-NBA. That's all I'm trying to say.
Guys who dominate the NBA would easily dominate the Euroleague. The NBA is a much more difficult competition level. That shouldn't be in question.
I don't think de Colo or Doncic or Bogdanovic (last year) dominated the Euroleague. They were very good, but did they dominate? not at all. I should link the Euroleague BPM charts that Jacob Goldstein calculated, most guys have not touched the levels Doncic has this year, and can you really say Doncic has dominated Euroleague this year? I really don't think he has. He has been very good, but very erratic. And yet he is probably by far the best Euroleague player in the past...5+ years?
Your point about 20 FGA and 30 PPG is just a usage inflation thing. The way Euroleague teams play it is rare that one player gets to monopolize possessions that much. Different styles of play.
Clementine9 wrote:Missed shots are unfortunate, but it's the trends throughout the game that matter.
Choker wrote:The swing in how Raptors fans have supported and turned on Powell is a good case study of human behavior.
Thespianoid wrote:I'm not saying it's harder than in the NBA. It's just the most difficult of any competition level pre-NBA. That's all I'm trying to say.
Well yes, I agree with that. There is this belief that scoring high numbers in EL is far thougher by default, which is BS IMO, I thought you were saying that. I remember when prime Deron Williams scored 50 on a trash German team during his Turkish stint, there were people saying that was more impressive than Kobe scoring 81, because scoring 50 in Europe is ''way harder''. BS.
Thespianoid wrote:Your point about 20 FGA and 30 PPG is just a usage inflation thing. The way Euroleague teams play it is rare that one player gets to monopolize possessions that much. Different styles of play.
Well yes, I just tried to explain why that is. Usage is spread out far more, because talent is way more even.
39 year old Sabonis with practically no knees left..
Euroleague stats 16.7 points,10 rebounds,2.4 assists,1 blk 26.3 PIR..On 28 minutes per game.If that's not domination i dont know what it is.The idea that players cant dominate Euroleague is laughable.As UcanUwill wrote it's just that there are no quality players able to dominate in euroleague.
I mean, I've played in a lot of European basketball. I've played in the Olympics. But this is definitely different. The way the reffing has been going has been different to me, but I've got to adjust.
Other than the 50pt game, nothing impressive. He was playing 34mins per game in 2nd (or 3rd? can't remember) tier of European basketball with 24.6/2.4/6 stats. These are basically (almost) per36 stats.
Luka has per36 of 22.8/7.8/6.4 against MUCH better competition in Europe, being a teenager. And Deron came back to NBA after his Europe stint to average 21/3.3/8.7 for the rest of the season.
buzzkilloton wrote:The team Doncic plays on real madrid beat the thunder last year in OT in a preseason game. 142-137. No way a ncaa team would ever beat Westbrook/Oladipo/Kanter/Adams NO FKN way! That right there shows you the talent level diff between NCAA and top Euro league teams.
Playing men is alot diff then playing boys in college. I dont even know how people havent figured this out its 2018 here.
Sure the top prospects in the NCAA almost always better then the top Euro prospects. The average player is NOT better though. Theirs a big diff between playing men and boys.
You surely are aware that University World games exist and that since 2001 USA NCAA teams won only 2 gold medals, 1 silver and 2 bronze? For comparison, Serbia with population of bit more than 6 million has 4 gold, 1 silver and 2 bronze medals in same time span. Lithuania and Russia also had as much success as USA.
That doesn't bode well for assumption that NCAA talent is superior to rest of the world.
They don’t send the top NCAA talent for that. They just have one random NCAA team play in it as basically their preseason camp. Someone from my high school played for the University of Northern Iowa when they were the team representing the US. UNI went 5-1, only losing to the team that went on to win gold, and they were just a mid-major team that went 18-14 in the NCAA that season. That is exactly in line with what the person you’re trying to argue with said, that average NCAA players/teams are NOT better than the best European players/teams.
For top-level NCAA talent, a more relevant comparison would be something like the U19 world championships, where the US and Canada have won the past 3 gold medals with rosters composed entirely of NCAA players. That’s even underselling it as the best 19-year-olds from those countries are preparing for the NBA draft and not playing. As the poster you quoted said, the top pro leagues in Europe are tougher than the NCAA because the players are grown men with more experience.
Initial warning: This is near 5000 words of film analysis, don't start to read if either of these things aren't meant/worthy for your reading habits here.
*I've asked for feedback on whether there'd be enough people who would read a film analysis on just that one game which I thought and think is a nice microcosm of '18 Doncic. I got the feedback but then couldn't write it for weeks because I've been sick pretty badly, actually still am but it's pretty weak at this point. I've missed all the Euroball + NBA games in the process. So that's why this post is so late and might be worthless for those that even asked for it since so much happened in this time span but again, the reason why I find the film of this single game valuable is because I think it's a good representation of Doncic's season which transcends time for me. So I'm writing it. Although it's weird that when I first wanted to write it, dude was 18 and he's 19 now. That's how late this is, I guess.
*I had the misfortune to read a little bit of the previous pages, the ignorance and complete misinformation with regards to Euroleague in this thread is maddening. I don't read this thread often enough to correct everything and get into arguments, mostly I use it to write my observations and read the few pages before and after writing them. But I really want to correct all this misinformation that I see often, then again it's so much that it would require a lengthy post just for itself. I don't intend to talk about how laughable that is calling scrubs a team that was so stacked that they were heavily favorites against the team that had the best player and the best coach in the continent, or call out a bunch of posts with surface level restatements trying to push an agenda about that team or certain players irrelevant to that team just to assure oneself with regards to preconceived ideas. Because I'm not convinced how valuable those things would be for me and my time even if the urge to call out someone who calls '01 Lakers a scrub team with a really targeted counter post is the same for me in the case with '02 Bologna. But there's one thing to mention that is more valuable for discussion purposes: That everyone in this thread from someone who doesn't have a single right observation/perception about Euroleague to a random person who's apparently watching and following it for years, is making the mistake of holding Euroleague as a second division to the NBA rather than seeing it as a systematically way different extension of the same sport. Until you start to do the latter, your knowledge/information level on Euroleague really doesn't matter in the game translation discussions. Start by looking at other sports if you wish, European basketball is pretty similar to European soccer where domestic leagues not only change in levels but also in style of play and comparative levels and governing process between these leagues and UCL/UEL and EL/Eurocup are pretty similar. And then and only then NBA exists as a superior but more importantly a way different in almost every aspect imaginable entity in basketball's case. Or for a different analogy that focuses on the difference in technical aspects more, difference between just the on court NBA and on court Euroleague is pretty similar to difference between just on court early 2000s grass courts in tennis and clay courts of now. I understand it, not caring about Euroleague, not knowing much about it, or even following it for years not really grasping its unique properties are all fine although the last one might be a little weird. But don't get involved in game translation arguments then. And if you wanna do, it starts by accepting how systematically different Euroleague is from NBA, not its freaking second division or even its lower level European branch. It's not just about different game rules either, or clear differences in on court play that is memorized by everybody at this point. I've written this having faith that some people would like to change their approach there, but users like mirotic who obviously want to push agendas all the time with an extremely poor understanding of comparative debates, lack of insight on Euroball that causes a narrative on Euroball that is harming it by reflecting an incorrect image of it on here on people that is not knowledgeable about Euroball can feel the comfort of being excluded. It's a pessimistic faith anyway, I've tried to underline how it is inherently close to impossible to dominate Euroleague, how only two players have done it in the ULEB version of it which is safe to say last 20 years at this point as no player is going to do it in the next two seasons. And yet useless arguments on how Sonny freaking Weems dominated Euroleague is going on in this thread, so I won't hold my breath waiting for it. Still, for tennis people here who are by any chance willing to modify their approach in this one I'll make this analogy: NBA is Wimbledon to Euroleague's Rome Masters where the biggest difference is not the fact that one is the most famous GS and the other is a Masters tournament, but it is the difference in courts. And especially think early 2000s Wimby courts here, because even the current slower courts wouldn't be able to correctly balance the difference between NBA & Euroleague even just comparing on-court aspects of both leagues in the analogy. NCAA basketball is like a Delray Beach, I guess. But don't take the last NCAA/Delray Beach analogy all that seriously, as I'm a person who have never watched any NCAA basketball in my life and the analogy is made strictly with the knowledge of perceptions on draft prospects, their NBA play, perceptions on NCAA players coming to Europe & their Euroball play. I'm pretty confident in the other analogy however, as I think it's a good representation on the difference in level of play and more importantly the systematic difference in both on-court play and also how the tournaments/leagues are run. Sorry for non-tennis people, that's an analogy I'm married to and really cannot explain it otherwise. This analogy fits perfectly for me in explaining player translations in both leagues (and hence both tournaments) as well but I won't go there even if most useless discussions here go there, meaning specific discussions of translations of other players in both leagues.
*I'm not interested in watching any domestic cups that I wasn't able to watch through illness except that Fener-Efes game. But this last blowout RM win over Barca might be interesting with how bad Doncic looks from BS stats, would be worth a look if there are structural issues (re)surfacing on awful levels or if it's fatigue related as many claim here. I have a lot of catching up to do with everything basketball related lately, and need to PM two scouting reports on two players as it was an earlier promise to someone on this website which will take time, but still wanna watch that game to understand what is the case there, and if it's the former, might wanna do a film analysis on that as well if possible with my time as it could be the perfect game to showcase structural issues. But I know Olympiakos game is already worth a film look because of its accurate representation in a single game as much as possible. So below is that:
I'm excluding all the stuff I've already shown on the previous post in this thread obviously.
Plays are in chronological order. Just looking at the gifs without reading perhaps long descriptions/thoughts on the possessions is pretty useless in reading any film analysis imo, but read it however you wish obviously.
Spoiler:
Doncic is a player that has almost always good positioning on the weakside as he has here as well. He's also a player that has inherent problems in his close-out technique, sometimes he sucks at closing out because he's exhausted and plays terrible defense all game due to near non-existent effort, but that shouldn't mask flaws in close-out technique. Here he tries, but his technique allows the dribble drive which results in Milutinov FTs. It's something a defensive anchor can fix but he needs to be elite and it's harder to fix in the NBA due to differences in defensive rules and officiating. This to me, is an accurate possession reflecting on his inherent close-out technique problems.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
Another classic Doncic possession this time on offense. He plays the initiative PnR but in the wing position. When both the help defender and the initial defender stay up on him, weakside defender Spanoulis tags the roll man and he immediately finds the open shooter. He makes this pass a gazillion times in a season, awareness of weakside shooters are super high against any PnR coverage, and notice how Spanoulis is aware of this also. His head & body movement show that awareness of the danger of the skip pass but he has to tag the roll man, Doncic throws the skip pass anyway, Spanoulis doesn't make a late close-out because he's always aware of the situation but he's not the fastest nor the longest guy on the floor and Taylor makes the 3. It's actually a good contest because V-Span's positioning is good. But please notice how Doncic shows the pass to Tavares to manipulate the defense. That is the reason why I rave about his manipulation on the opposing defense in PnR. Spanoulis doesn't commit to Tavares and doesn't make that one step until Doncic shows the ball as a pass fake towards Tavares. Who creates the opening here? Doncic's manipulation on the defense with the pass fake. How many PnR handlers ever can do that? Only a handful in a combined list of Euroball + NBA PnR handlers. But there is one thing more valuable to look at. Does Doncic move? Does he drive? Does he create the weakside shooting by the threat of his dribble drive to the paint like how LeBron does every single time? No, he creates it by standing, not beating two defenders, but beating the weakside defender by sheer manipulation. So all the "He won't be able to drive, if shooters stick to their men he won't have the skip passes to shooters options" talk is missing this aspect of his game. Creation by only manipulation isn't a small detail that one might be missing when watching the game, it is a major thing that can create a shot by that skill itself after the PnR like how LeBron's unique driving threat can create a shot itself which is acknowledged to be a major thing for the creation because the latter is easier to do spot when watching the game. In reality, there's not much difference in the importance of both skillsets, LeBron's driving threat has just more volume in a game. But make no mistake, Luka manipulates the defense to create a shot quite a lot as well, there's a reason I said he makes this pass a gazillion times a season and it wasn't because it was a skip pass or finding a shooter.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
A classic Doncic shot (close to agreeing with me about how this game is an accurate representation of the player, maybe?) which is also a classic Euro wing shot since the 70s, but a more popular one then. Pump fake into dribble that is close to the outside of the lower body of the defender. K-Pap is a good defender, holds his balance and contests well. This shot mechanically isn't problematic to me, you may argue a slight fadeaway but there's a good contest plus those fadeaways after a forward momentum with dribble rhythm tend to balance the shot better sometimes. It's just a miss.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
Another classic Doncic possession. When the defender sits on his drive 1-on-1 and gives him the shot he never beats his defender to the rim. But he's never able to pull up immediately either. He's a capable pull-up shooter and has good handles if it is accepted that his carries are not gonna be called (and in the current NBA, it won't even as a rookie) but he needs to improve his yo-yo dribble. It's bad and potentially can cause trouble against disruptive defenders. Here it does. Ideally watching some Oscar tape would be great, or actually any great ball handler from 60s and 70s because of the dribbling rules back then. Magic is also great as he fits in the height + lead ball handler role combo as well with Doncic's game. He doesn't need improvement with getting low with the dribble, as shown just above in that missed 3 against K-Pap as well, but needs vast improvement with yo-yo dribble. Its badness not only creates a near TOV here, but also his inability in that regard causes him to not pull-up immediately in that giving space possessions and reset himself and his handles to attack in a less favorable position. And the near-TOV comes here after that reset and attacking from a less favorable position against a disruptive defender.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
Caught ball watching and backdoor cut. Doesn't happen that often, but isn't super rare either. Simply needs to cut down on these.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
Not all that much related to him, this one. An example of the effect of the slightly closer 3pt line and the def. 3 seconds rule compared to NBA. Lane is more crowded, Luka finds a drive opening on the switch on Milutinov's left but Printezis is able to get there immediately and then even close out to Thompkins. This is on Thompkins as much as the closer 3pt line (admittedly not even sure 3pt line plays that much of a role in here as Thompkins stands quite further back, it may just have a very minor effect because of other 2 shooters) + def 3 secs rule because that is simply poor court positioning. That's such a bad spot to stand. All other 4 Real players have good court positioning on the court, his mistake in court placement arguably costs the possession. He needs to be much closer to the corner.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
Sharing this one mainly for the FT drawing ability but notice how adept he's at the low dribbles. Gets low, uses the in & out and beats the defender. His low handles are galaxies better than his yo-yo dribble. This one is a long gif so very lagged. But wanted to show the replay as well. Replay shows how he gets his arms close to his defenders' and when defender's arm tangles up with Doncic's, he gets the call. A lot of people do this in the NBA and it's a regular call there. So I don't really hate those calls over there, it's widespread and in the rules. Although I'd want it to not be called in theory, rules are rules. Not so much for Euroleague, it's a recent call that is being called and Doncic and De Colo are the only ones doing it consistently which makes me hate it every time they get this call. But it's sort of a valuable skill that fits the NBA.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
I've talked about it a few times here, has big issues navigating through screens. A simple off-ball Printezis screen leaves him behind his defender here, but RM switches these all the time now as they did here and gets rid of the issue at least for off-ball screens. Doncic's ability to stay on bigs for the remainder of a possession with size is valuable but both teammates are less aware of these things and necessary adjustments, and also NBA coaches take more time to figure these things out and a lot of them don't care/try to/focus on making adjustments like these. This consistent adjustment is a European Xs-and-Os thing, Luka can hope to find an NBA coaching staff and teammates that are willing to make regular season adjustments like these and have good awareness of these in the NBA. But there are quite a lot of them that won't, even if he mentions it himself to coaching staff explicitly like "I suck at navigating through screens so can we switch at least off-ball ones all the time" that's just a tactical difference in Europe and the NBA.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
This looks like a handles issue that is not. At first glance it looks like that but upon a slower review, his hip and lower body doesn't generate enough power to step back after the forward momentum. Do a 90 minute lower body workout heavy on squats and then try this move on a defender after the workout immediately. Same thing will happen. The issue isn't ball handling here.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
Can't speak to if anything is wrong with body mechanics here but has good lowness during the attack here. Can't pull-off that Bodiroga move as Milutinov completely sits on the pump fake and has to reset the offense back. Crowded lane doesn't do any favors him here and Milutinov's defense. But it's a negative. Had good lowness when attacking, maybe other things are wrong in his body mechanics. But definitely this is also related to inability of one-two finishes. But good perimeter defending bigs can shut him down in these possessions as long as they have the awareness against that Bodiroga move. Vesely did this against Doncic a couple times as well.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
Another usual Doncic possession. Another laggy gif, sorry. Tavares' length bothers Spanoulis and forces the bad pass but this is a rotation he makes a lot. Radoncic is jailed and his man is available for the pass and the bucket, Doncic makes the rotation to get in front of him & create a TOV/force a miss as Radoncic is able to switch to Doncic's man. Tavares' length makes those things unnecessary in this possession but he creates TOVs this way not so rarely.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
This miss is interesting. The front rimming may show exhaustion and lack of power on lower body to most people. But it's actually quite knowingly done. On a previous possession you can remember how he had a TOV because of lack of power generation by lower body. And I mentioned going through a squat heavy, tough lower body workout and doing the move would cause the same for a lot of people. Basketball is an instinctual game, these kind of adjustments are usually done by players preconsciously or subconsciously not consciously. Even though the player can spot what he's done in the game tape, it doesn't happen consciously. So I think Luka uses the split legs and that final single dribble to disallow the same situation that happened earlier, meaning losing the ball because his lower body doesn't generate enough power on the stepback after the move to the front. So there's not a radical move up and down on the stepback here, split legs and that final single dribble eases the transition but those adjustments themselves will make you make front rim the shot. Like, the adjustment is done because of lack of power generation by the lower body, but even if there was that power, if you execute this move this way exactly, you'd front rim the shot more than likely. So the lack of power generation here is both not at all the reason and also the reason for front rimming the shot. It depends on whether you are asking the indirect reason that causes it, or the direct reason (movement) that causes it.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
This is what happens here: Doncic drives, but Printezis helps one pass away and is on his drive path. So he passes to his man. But Printezis closes out fast. One pass aways are punished more in the NBA due to a more open halfcourt game. And guys like Harden and Doncic who pass to the even slightly open shooter are rewarded more in the NBA (or current NBA at least) and punished to usually reset the offense in Europe. Which I love about European game (and older NBA game). Anyways, so they reset the offense and go to secondary PnR. Doncic attacks left this time, forces Printezis to help further, finds his man again but close-out distance is harder this time, shooter is more open and bucket.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
He doesn't cut much and might need improvement in off-ball cuts. But this is a great one. A vertical cutting threat against defenders who overplay his cuts for top of the key PnRs would be neat for his game. Some good vertical cutters do this against Avery Bradley a lot for example, who likes to overplay those cuts to top of the key for PnR ball handlers.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
Back to a classic Doncic possession. Steal from the weakside on the botched play, a fast transition run, finding a transition shooter. Taylor goes out of bounds but that really doesn't matter from a Doncic scouting perspective.
Gfycat Video - Click to Play
Spoiler:
When I just watched the move before the shot now, I said "this won't be a front rimmer" and it turned out to be a make. Not all that surprising because there's rhythm to the move this time, he feels the power on his lower body for the stepback. He closes his feet together to generate power for the lateral movement first, and pulls off a successful stepback upon using the rhythm that is created by the power for the initial lateral step, his feet alignment is also better. All this makes this shot look in better rhythm. Rhythm is a reflection on power generation from lower body on shots. The reason you cannot practice shooting for 6 hours straight for example, after a certain point you don't have any rhythm in the shot and it is like playing shot put. Even on spot-ups let alone step backs, pull-ups, etc. That's not because of lack of power in your wrist or whatever, it is because lack of power on your lower body after hours of shooting practice which is one of the least intense individual practices. You're likely to fall on your stepback with no defender in sight after like 5 hours of shooting practice for example, there's not just any power left. Your rhythm on stepbacks won't be the same after two hours compared to beginning of the practice for the same reason. As it isn't the same for week 1 against Efes and week 22 against Olympiakos in a season. Luka needs to solve this. This season with no offseason might be an outlier, work on lower body might cause improvements but he needs to solve this. If it's late January and he's having the same issues in his 3rd season in the NBA, it puts a ceiling on his off-the-dribble shooting. His touch is elite anyway, he can't solve these problematic shooting slumps by shooting 2000 shots on offseason.
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Another lagged gif, sorry. I've talked about his weakside helps a lot, even in this post earlier. Taylor's disruption and his blocking of Milutinov creates the TOV.
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This one made me go "not a front rim either" as well. Nothing to criticize for shot balance and mechanics really, just another miss. Only thing I can point out is about the shot selection. It's a perfect one for a crossover to the right as defender is in perfect position to get beaten by that and there's sufficient space for a midrange pull-up on the right. So crossover + optional single dribble to the pull-up is a better shot selection imo. However, shot clock is running out, so I can't really call out that one.
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He has to carry because he can't yo-yo dribble. He has to have issues with ball placement on top of the ball/palming. Can't really spot it without working with him or playing together with him. His low crossover after is great though. He's probably one of 3 best Euro prospects ever, definitely the best in the last 30 years and his handles are overall good but he couldn't make a high school team in 60s with the same handles. Seriously, over the top dribble needs a lot of work.
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Another example of high dribble issues. He can't beat the defender in transition to the rim not because of any athletic issues here, but because of inability to high dribble. His inability to high dribble with a tried in & out disallows him to get lowness and attack to the rim. He always gets low by getting low from a non-dribbling start or with a carry like the previous possession, but inability of "high dribble into the getting low" limits him one-on-one quite a lot.
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Again, carry allows him to get lowness out of the dribble which results in FTs. He won't get called for these carries in the NBA and doesn't get called in Euroleague either. But as exemplified above, carries don't solve every problem. Still needs to improve the high dribble.
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Something I made an entire post about at the beginning of this season, after Eurobasket. He showed promise as a pseudo rim protector as '17 Doncic and also in Eurobasket. But his role this season is way different and he does this rarely. When done it rarely, you cannot really call it pseudo rim protection as it must be a consistent thing. But understandable why his volume dropped because of change in role compared to Eurobasket and 2016-17. Something to monitor later in his career.
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Another weakside rotation, another turnover created by his positioning and disruption.
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A non-carry lowness example. I also mentioned non-dribble starts as possessions he gains lowness. Well, a non-dribbling start here. He's low from the beginning, hang dribble isn't a carry but he's able to hang dribble because of the non-dribbling start which allows him to get low from the beginning. But again, for dribbling starts, carrying doesn't solve everything, he needs to work on high dribble. I don't wanna comment on physicality here, but I think I have to. Foul is called on Spanoulis FWIW, not Thompson's smacks. Euroleague officiating pulls out weak calls all the time, but doesn't try to protect perimeter offensive players at any costs like NBA refs do. But that's a bad thing for many Doncic fans here, because that's an argument for them as in "European officating allows physicality that NBA refs don't" while I like how it is in Europe. So don't wanna underline this as if it's bad officiating. I like it.
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Smart give and go for better momentum when attacking the switch. Thought he'd go for his stop and fadeaways in those spots, but chose the pump fake again. Milutinov bought it this time, and Doncic drew the foul on Milutinov's jump.
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Lack of power on lower body problems again. His behind leg which is left leg, can't generate enough power to carry his momentum to the back. His left break sort of breaks under pressure, but then he crossovers to the right and gains the foul. Remember when I talked about crossing over to the right as a criticism of shot selection on that shot with a running out shot clock? This time he did it (shot clock is also not running out here) and even did it when his left leg broke under pressure from his momentum shift. But that lack of power on legs is still valuable to look at here, even with the drawn foul. Worth to remember he played (I think) all of the second half and this is the final minute of the game.
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On the final possession of the game, I don't think he falls because he slips or due to contact. His behind leg broke under pressure of his own momentum the previous possession. I think he falls because both of his legs can't carry his momentum on the spin this time, left one turns outwards where it doesn't supposed to and the right one completely stretches out probably with no power under pressure and causes the fall.
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However accurate this game might be to show a bunch of different things about '18 Doncic. It misses two major things about him:
*Off-ball scoring ability. *Much of the playmaking for others due to Olympiakos switching majority of the PnRs all game.
And one non-major thing: Set-up postups that happen every other game.
I have to admit I'm a bit discouraged to write these long posts in this thread from now on because it doesn't generate much discussion/debate which is okay but also I see a lot of continued trends in arguments here that I specifically want to end. And if noone argues, debates about them with me but those same trends, opinions continue in basically the same discussions every time I start reading this thread a little, well then it's pretty useless for me to write those things. But a few people asked for this (when Luka Doncic was an 18 year old, I might add) and I wanted to write it as soon as I could write it (when now Luka Doncic is a 19 year old) so I did. Sorry for any mistakes in the post, I won't proofread this one as I'm still ill although much better compared to last 20 days. Anyway back to bed.
Mirotic12 wrote:He's a 19 year old kid (in 4 days), playing in ACB / EuroLeague, in one of the major clubs (Real Madrid)....the season is very long and grueling, and now teams prepare for him, and now the season is starting to get into some more serious games.
Just like he struggled a lot last year in the EuroLeague Final Four and the ACB Finals....
It's called being a 19 year old college freshman aged player, playing in a very high level men's league.
If people thought he would keep up the pace he had earlier in the year, all season, then they have absolutely zero concept of the level of competition he is playing at. Like last season, some people here were arguing he was going to be final four MVP and lead his team to a title - that was incredibly absurd and ridiculous. Him struggling at that point of the season was totally predictable.
So to it is totally predictable that his numbers were going to drop this season, once Real got back some injured players, the games got more important, and opposing teams started to plan more strategy for Doncic defensively.
If Doncic was just going to tear through modern EuroLeague at age 18-19, then he would be the greatest talent ever in basketball history. It's clear from comments here, that the vast majority of people in these forums have no grasp of how high the level of competition is that he's playing at, for a 18-19 year old kid.
I guarantee no NCAA player would be even remotely close to his same production, if they were playing in Real Madrid.
Doncic having ups and downs, and slumps, just proves the enormous difference from a big EuroLeague team to NCAA. If anything, it should strengthen his case to go #1 overall, because he's going to be like at least 2 years ahead of any NCAA player in his development and NBA readiness.
There is a lot of hyperbole about the toughness of the Euro league and a lot of it goes unchallenged for the most part. The Euro league is tough but it is not more TALENTED than NCAA basketball especially from a NBA standpoint.
talent means nothing if it doesn't translate into production.
the vast majority of NCAA players are not professional level basketball players. that is who most NCAA prospects face each game, not the blue-chip top tier NBA prospects and possible pro level players, who they may face maybe a cumulative 10 games during an entire season. And even then, they may not even be matched up or affect their play over the course of a game. And if they do, it may not be for an entire game, or even half a game, to as little as a couple possessions.
I really don't understand why the NCAA vs Euroleague/ACB gap is so difficult to grasp. The more I read opinions the more I think it's a US exceptionalist/raw run-jump athleticism bias. And I say this as an American.
The idea of American Exceptionalism is a disease in our culture. It's ruining this country. Hopefully we can come to our senses before it's too late.
I greatly appreciate the analysis. I really like Doncic but don't get to watch much of anything other than occasional highlights at this point for various reasons. I also am quite the novice at evaluating the finer points so it is nice to see your take on things though I don't know enough to truly debate you on any of it. He is who I'm currently hoping the Grizzlies take though some of the other prospects certainly could have an argument made for them.
Obradovič commenting on Luka, basically he is saying that Luka knows exactly what he needs to do to become a superstar. To be honest i don't even question that, really the only thing he needs is time which he has plenty.
