John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III

[tontoz]

Porter averaged 21 pts per 36 in February. I haven't looked but I would bet it is a career high and he did it without Wall. He also maintained his high efficiency with a TS of 62%.

He got his shots the same way. Difference was Sato shoots 8 times a game so the ball had many more chances to find Otto in a favorable position. It's not like iso's just started going to Otto. I said in another thread--it's good he's playing good basketball, but even without John on the court he likes to pass the ball when the shot clock is dying down to Kieff or Beal for the low percentage shot. He's gotta start taking that himself some more. You hit a shot like that and all of a sudden you feel good. You start getting really hot. That's the next level for him to get to.

The argument was ' Porter relies on Wall to get easy looks'. Now it's well 'Wall is out so someone had to shoot'.

He had a few shots at or near the end of the clock just in the first half against Philly. He isn't scoring 21 pts per 36 on catch and shoot looks with plenty of time left on the clock.

They run pick and rolls all the time for Wall and Beal, even when Beal was one of the worst in the league at them. They don't do that nearly as much for Porter.

For the record 11% of Porter's shot attempts are with 21+ seconds elapsed

http://www.82games.com/1718/17WAS9.HTM#pstats

Compared to 10%for Beal and 9% for Wall.

[Illmatic12]

Read on Twitter

Those words from Brooks are pretty important. Not what he said about John, but specifically what he said about Porter.

That's the first time I've ever heard Brooks openly acknowledge that Otto should be a bigger scorer on this team. Ever since he's taken over as head coach, it seems like Brooks only ever saw Otto as a ~12ppg 3&d role player and not a bonafide scoring option. Now that Otto is stepping up and growing into that kind of player, Brooks is starting to trust him more and hopefully we see that continue.

I think we've all long wanted Wall to be able to cut down his shot attempts to focus on other parts of his game. Hence the desire to acquire Durant, Cousins etc who would be legit #1 scoring options. Now that Brad and Otto have stepped up so much, it's the perfect time to start introducing that dynamic. Otto should be averaging around ~17ppg moving forward, with Brad at ~23-25ppg and John can scale it back to an efficient 18ppg/11apg

How many points is Otto avg over the time John has been out? John has missed a lot of the year and Otto officially avg 14? I’m going to say this right now...I’m not sure Otto has turned into a number 2 option as a scorer as he still cant consistently (game by game) get his shot.

Otto is averaging 19ppg @ 62 TS% on 14 FGA (14 games) in Wall's absence. Prior to that, he was averaging 13.5ppg @ 57 TS% on 11 FGA

Disagree that Otto can't get his own shot. What he can't really do is score in isolation off the dribble. Klay Thompson can't create off the dribble either, but he's so good at moving off the ball and shooting that you can't stop him from scoring. Otto is establishing himself in a similar category, he can create shots in volume just by moving off the ball and shooting over smaller defenders. And I still see Otto being the #3 option, the main adjustment is John should move from #1 option to #2.

[CobraCommander]

Those words from Brooks are pretty important. Not what he said about John, but specifically what he said about Porter.

That's the first time I've ever heard Brooks openly acknowledge that Otto should be a bigger scorer on this team. Ever since he's taken over as head coach, it seems like Brooks only ever saw Otto as a ~12ppg 3&d role player and not a bonafide scoring option. Now that Otto is stepping up and growing into that kind of player, Brooks is starting to trust him more and hopefully we see that continue.

I think we've all long wanted Wall to be able to cut down his shot attempts to focus on other parts of his game. Hence the desire to acquire Durant, Cousins etc who would be legit #1 scoring options. Now that Brad and Otto have stepped up so much, it's the perfect time to start introducing that dynamic. Otto should be averaging around ~17ppg moving forward, with Brad at ~23-25ppg and John can scale it back to an efficient 18ppg/11apg

How many points is Otto avg over the time John has been out? John has missed a lot of the year and Otto officially avg 14? I’m going to say this right now...I’m not sure Otto has turned into a number 2 option as a scorer as he still cant consistently (game by game) get his shot.

Porter averaged 21 pts per 36 in February. I haven't looked but I would bet it is a career high and he did it without Wall. He also maintained his high efficiency with a TS of 62%.

You guys know me, I was truly asking when i said how many points does Otto avg. Its not a shot at Otto, but he just doesnt seem like the type of player the wiz can depend on to look for his shot nor does he seem to be the type of player that you can depend on to create his shot as a second option. IF the team is moving the ball and Ottos the open man it appears he can fill it up. So the question keeps coming back to will the Wiz get the best shot possible with Wall back? The other question becomes if not, what are their options. I.e. would you move Wall in the offseason? I would bet, that now that Wall has his super max, if the team starts to turn on him, he would be open to leaving the wiz. We are in a tough situation that doesnt have a lot of good options IF this team doesnt develop into having 3 special players that move the ball and get great shots and play good defense.

In fact, my bold prediction for 2018/2019 season is this- Calipari will get caught up in the FBI NCAA issues and leave Kentucky. N.O. will fire Alvin and hire Calipari. John will leave Washington and join coach cal, boogie and AD...

[CobraCommander]

Those words from Brooks are pretty important. Not what he said about John, but specifically what he said about Porter.

That's the first time I've ever heard Brooks openly acknowledge that Otto should be a bigger scorer on this team. Ever since he's taken over as head coach, it seems like Brooks only ever saw Otto as a ~12ppg 3&d role player and not a bonafide scoring option. Now that Otto is stepping up and growing into that kind of player, Brooks is starting to trust him more and hopefully we see that continue.

I think we've all long wanted Wall to be able to cut down his shot attempts to focus on other parts of his game. Hence the desire to acquire Durant, Cousins etc who would be legit #1 scoring options. Now that Brad and Otto have stepped up so much, it's the perfect time to start introducing that dynamic. Otto should be averaging around ~17ppg moving forward, with Brad at ~23-25ppg and John can scale it back to an efficient 18ppg/11apg

How many points is Otto avg over the time John has been out? John has missed a lot of the year and Otto officially avg 14? I’m going to say this right now...I’m not sure Otto has turned into a number 2 option as a scorer as he still cant consistently (game by game) get his shot.

Otto is averaging 19ppg @ 62 TS% on 14 FGA (14 games) in Wall's absence. Prior to that, he was averaging 13.5ppg @ 57 TS% on 11 FGA

Disagree that Otto can't get his own shot. What he can't really do is score in isolation off the dribble. Klay Thompson can't create off the dribble either, but he's so good at moving off the ball and shooting that you can't stop him from scoring. Otto is establishing himself in a similar category, he can create shots in volume just by moving off the ball and shooting over smaller defenders. And I still see Otto being the #3 option, the main adjustment is John should move from #1 option to #2.

Hmmm did you just compare Otto to Klay?

But I agree with you except I think JW has to be your 3rd option for the wiz to win significant games over time. His true shooting percentage outside the paint has proven to not be so good. And I’m a Wall fan...i just think he should facilitate for better shooters

[Illmatic12]

I'll believe when I see it. I have seen nothing that makes me believe Wall will willingly sacrifice shot attempts for the benefit of the team. He took a career high shot attempts last season in spite of the breakout years from Beal and Porter.

I think Brooks will have to force it on him and I am not sure Brooks has enough backbone for that.

I believe he will. First of all, Wall's play last season wasn't "in spite" of his team. Wall, along with Beal and Porter had a career year that elevated his team and the result was the most successful/exciting Wizards season in decades. The franchise really needed John to have a season like that and he delivered.

Secondly, last season was important for Wall coming off of double-knee surgery and wanting to reestablish himself and get his confidence back. His banner year resulted in an All-NBA selection, a supermax extension, Adidas shoe contract, and now his longterm future is secured. At this point in his career he has nothing to accomplish other than elevating his franchise to being a consistent winner. I believe he'll play however he needs to for our team to be successful, John's never been a Westbrook-type who has an obsession with doing things his way.

Idk if you have twitter, but John liked this tweet from his account.

Read on Twitter

Basically the clip is of SAS calling out Wall for supposedly "making too many plays himself/not trusting his teammates".. I think he liked the tweet bc he resents the idea that people are starting to think he's not a team-first player. John is a lot more self-aware than you've given him credit for over the years. He sees and observes everything, he has a high IQ for basketball, and I'm pretty confident he understands the changing team dynamics and how he should fit in.

[Illmatic12]

How many points is Otto avg over the time John has been out? John has missed a lot of the year and Otto officially avg 14? I’m going to say this right now...I’m not sure Otto has turned into a number 2 option as a scorer as he still cant consistently (game by game) get his shot.

Otto is averaging 19ppg @ 62 TS% on 14 FGA (14 games) in Wall's absence. Prior to that, he was averaging 13.5ppg @ 57 TS% on 11 FGA

Disagree that Otto can't get his own shot. What he can't really do is score in isolation off the dribble. Klay Thompson can't create off the dribble either, but he's so good at moving off the ball and shooting that you can't stop him from scoring. Otto is establishing himself in a similar category, he can create shots in volume just by moving off the ball and shooting over smaller defenders. And I still see Otto being the #3 option, the main adjustment is John should move from #1 option to #2.

Hmmm did you just compare Otto to Klay?

But I agree with you except I think JW has to be your 3rd option for the wiz to win significant games over time. His true shooting percentage outside the paint has proven to not be so good. And I’m a Wall fan...i just think he should facilitate for better shooters

Yes I did, I'm comparing them stylistically not saying Otto is as good as him. Otto isn't as gifted a scorer as Klay, but he can create his shots in a similar fashion (at a lower volume than Klay does, obviously) .

John will never be 3rd in usage, because you have to factor in how much he naturally scores in transition and getting to the rim/FTs. But in terms of taking shots outside the paint, yes John should be a distant 3rd in jumpshot attempts I agree.

[nate33]

In fact, my bold prediction for 2018/2019 season is this- Calipari will get caught up in the FBI NCAA issues and leave Kentucky. N.O. will fire Alvin and hire Calipari. John will leave Washington and join coach cal, boogie and AD...

Bill Simmons just said in his latest broadcast that the Wizards should trade Wall for Jrue Holiday straight up, just to get out from that contract.

I think that's a pretty bad trade. Jrue's contract is only barely less horrid than John's. But clearly, a pretty knowledgeable guy like Bill Simmons doesn't think Wall has much trade value. (My guess is that he has no confidence in Wall's knee.)

[tontoz]

Wall routinely comes down the court and takes mid-range shots without anyone touching the ball. He sucks at those shots but keeps taking them out of selfishness.

He also sucks at those late clock/late game isos, but keeps taking those shots.

He is putting himself before the team in both cases. He's been doing it for years.

He also doesn't move without the ball and is frequently a lazy defender.

I don't care what he says off the court. I will judge him based on what he does on the court and he has been doing the exact same things for a long time.

[Shanghai Kid]

In fact, my bold prediction for 2018/2019 season is this- Calipari will get caught up in the FBI NCAA issues and leave Kentucky. N.O. will fire Alvin and hire Calipari. John will leave Washington and join coach cal, boogie and AD...

Bill Simmons just said in his latest broadcast that the Wizards should trade Wall for Jrue Holiday straight up, just to get out from that contract.

I think that's a pretty bad trade. Jrue's contract is only barely less horrid than John's. But clearly, a pretty knowledgeable guy like Bill Simmons doesn't think Wall has much trade value. (My guess is that he has no confidence in Wall's knee.)

I think Wall's trade value is shot for now, but it can be rebuilt.

People forget that Wall through the first 8 games of the playoffs played at a true superstar level. That kind of performance again might make him tradeable.

But we definetly need to see how the team looks like with Wall healthy. You need multiple stars who can break down the defense in the playoffs.

[Shanghai Kid]

Wall routinely comes down the court and takes mid-range shots without anyone touching the ball. He sucks at those shots but keeps taking them out of selfishness.

He also sucks at those late clock/late game isos, but keeps taking those shots.

He is putting himself before the team in both cases. He's been doing it for years.

He also doesn't move without the ball and is frequently a lazy defender.

I don't care what he says off the court. I will judge him based on what he does on the court and he has been doing the exact same things for a long time.

Does Wall do ANYTHING positive for the team?

[nate33]

Wall routinely comes down the court and takes mid-range shots without anyone touching the ball. He sucks at those shots but keeps taking them out of selfishness.

He also sucks at those late clock/late game isos, but keeps taking those shots.

He is putting himself before the team in both cases. He's been doing it for years.

He also doesn't move without the ball and is frequently a lazy defender.

I don't care what he says off the court. I will judge him based on what he does on the court and he has been doing the exact same things for a long time.

It may sound harsh, but tontoz speaks the truth. I'm really hoping John has learned something from how the team has played without him, but I'm not all that confident that he will change his ways. Like tontoz said earlier, I'll believe it when I see it.

[tontoz]

Wall routinely comes down the court and takes mid-range shots without anyone touching the ball. He sucks at those shots but keeps taking them out of selfishness.

He also sucks at those late clock/late game isos, but keeps taking those shots.

He is putting himself before the team in both cases. He's been doing it for years.

He also doesn't move without the ball and is frequently a lazy defender.

I don't care what he says off the court. I will judge him based on what he does on the court and he has been doing the exact same things for a long time.

Does Wall do ANYTHING positive for the team?

Sure. He routinely breaks down the defense and sets guys up for easy looks. He is elite at playmaking, I just wish he would focus on it more rather than jacking up shots to build up his numbers.

[nate33]

Wall routinely comes down the court and takes mid-range shots without anyone touching the ball. He sucks at those shots but keeps taking them out of selfishness.

He also sucks at those late clock/late game isos, but keeps taking those shots.

He is putting himself before the team in both cases. He's been doing it for years.

He also doesn't move without the ball and is frequently a lazy defender.

I don't care what he says off the court. I will judge him based on what he does on the court and he has been doing the exact same things for a long time.

Does Wall do ANYTHING positive for the team?

He does lots of positive things. He does more positive things than anybody else. Unfortunately, he also does more negative things than anybody else (turnovers, missed shots, and lazy D).

When you watch Wall play, it's easy to be thrilled by those positive things, and it's easy to forget those negative things, but they do matter. What we've seen is that if you replace Wall with Sato, a guy who doesn't do all that many positive things but does virtually zero negative things, the end result is the same, or perhaps a bit better. John simply has to cut out the negative things. He must be a better, more consistent defender, and he's got to stop shooting so many low percentage midrange shots. If it means he ends up doing a few less positive things, so be it.

[Shanghai Kid]

Wall routinely comes down the court and takes mid-range shots without anyone touching the ball. He sucks at those shots but keeps taking them out of selfishness.

He also sucks at those late clock/late game isos, but keeps taking those shots.

He is putting himself before the team in both cases. He's been doing it for years.

He also doesn't move without the ball and is frequently a lazy defender.

I don't care what he says off the court. I will judge him based on what he does on the court and he has been doing the exact same things for a long time.

Does Wall do ANYTHING positive for the team?

He does lots of positive things. He does more positive things than anybody else. Unfortunately, he also does more negative things than anybody else (turnovers, missed shots, and lazy D).

When you watch Wall play, it's easy to be thrilled by those positive things, and it's easy to forget those negative things, but they do matter. What we've seen is that if you replace Wall with Sato, a guy who doesn't do all that many positive things but does virtually zero negative things, the end result is the same, or perhaps a bit better. John simply has to cut out the negative things. He must be a better, more consistent defender, and he's got to stop shooting so many low percentage midrange shots. If it means he ends up doing a few less positive things, so be it.

I was being sarcastic, but I appreciate the response. I think Wall needs to be much more consistent on defense and has to reign in the bad midrange shots.

Let me get your take on this. Some of these discussions act like the Wizards have been a .500 team the last few years but unlocked the magic formula when Wall got injured. There is a lot of talk about how the Wizards are sharing the ball without Wall.

But what was up with last years team? How did "Wall dominant" ball have them on a 55 win pace for a lot of the season? Was there some kind of issue with the offense on last years team? Was it a team that didn't move the ball around? I feel like that developed this season, but I think for two months last year they had the second highest winning percentage in the league behind Golden State. How were they doing that with the flawed "Wall ball" style? Am I wrong or did we have one of the best performing starting line-ups in the league? The issue seemed to be defense and having no bench.

I think last year's offense with a better defense and a better bench would win the East this year.

But it hasn't worked out that way, I'm not sure if it's less an indictment on Wall's style of play and more of a result of him playing hurt and being generally ineffective.

[DCZards]

I don't disagree at all with what's been said here about the negative things that Wall does that hurts the team--turnovers, bad shot selection, unfocused D, etc. But I'm also going to give WallStar the benefit of the doubt as it relates to his ability to recognize how well the team is playing without him and his willingness to mesh his skillset with how the team is currently playing.

Personally, I'm just going to sit back and take a wait-and-see attitude at this point because none of us know for sure what will happen when Wall, hopefully, returns in a few weeks.

[nate33]

I was being sarcastic, but I appreciate the response. I think Wall needs to be much more consistent on defense and has to reign in the bad midrange shots.

Let me get your take on this. Some of these discussions act like the Wizards have been a .500 team the last few years but unlocked the magic formula when Wall got injured. There is a lot of talk about how the Wizards are sharing the ball without Wall.

But what was up with last years team? How did "Wall dominant" ball have them on a 55 win pace for a lot of the season? Was there some kind of issue with the offense on last years team? Was it a team that didn't move the ball around? I feel like that developed this season, but I think for two months last year they had the second highest winning percentage in the league behind Golden State. How were they doing that with the flawed "Wall ball" style? Am I wrong or did we have one of the best performing starting line-ups in the league? The issue seemed to be defense and having no bench.

I think last year's offense with a better defense and a better bench would win the East this year.

But it hasn't worked out that way, I'm not sure if it's less an indictment on Wall's style of play and more of a result of him playing hurt and being generally ineffective.

The team won 49 games last year, so let's not talk about 55 wins like it actually happened.

And now we are seeing that the same team, with Sato in place of Wall, looks like it can win at the same pace, perhaps even at a slightly better pace. And that supports what I was saying earlier that so much of Wall's positive contributions are offset by his negatives.

[CobraCommander]

Wall routinely comes down the court and takes mid-range shots without anyone touching the ball. He sucks at those shots but keeps taking them out of selfishness.

He also sucks at those late clock/late game isos, but keeps taking those shots.

He is putting himself before the team in both cases. He's been doing it for years.

He also doesn't move without the ball and is frequently a lazy defender.

I don't care what he says off the court. I will judge him based on what he does on the court and he has been doing the exact same things for a long time.

Does Wall do ANYTHING positive for the team?

Yeah...remember a lot of the posters are prisoners of the moment. John still the best wiz...his knees are an issue this year. Last year wasn’t a fluke...dude has gotten better yearly. The fact that Beal is now at Johns level (finally) should be a cause for rejoicing but people acting like its John Or Brad...when it should be DAMNNNNN now we finally have 2 allstars...and we should be waiting on Otto to evolve into the third wheel while we pray that Kelly becomes the 4th piece in a championship caliber team....instead people forget that we with Wall and Beal balling last year they went on an amazing home winning streak and were nearly a 50 win team....but alas. Trade Wall for Dru and let Wall, Boogie and AD contend for a right while we enjoy 3rd and 4th place in the east for the next 5 years...till beal can get out of DC too

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

[DCZards]

The team won 49 games last year, so let's not talk about 55 wins like it actually happened.

And now we are seeing that the same team, with Sato in place of Wall, looks like it can win at the same pace, perhaps even at a slightly better pace. And that supports what I was saying earlier that so much of Wall's positive contributions are offset by his negatives.

This is NOT the same team as last year. Beal and Porter are both a year older and better, Oubre has added to his game, and this year's bench is much better than last year's, including a healthy Mahinmi.

[Shanghai Kid]

I was being sarcastic, but I appreciate the response. I think Wall needs to be much more consistent on defense and has to reign in the bad midrange shots.

Let me get your take on this. Some of these discussions act like the Wizards have been a .500 team the last few years but unlocked the magic formula when Wall got injured. There is a lot of talk about how the Wizards are sharing the ball without Wall.

But what was up with last years team? How did "Wall dominant" ball have them on a 55 win pace for a lot of the season? Was there some kind of issue with the offense on last years team? Was it a team that didn't move the ball around? I feel like that developed this season, but I think for two months last year they had the second highest winning percentage in the league behind Golden State. How were they doing that with the flawed "Wall ball" style? Am I wrong or did we have one of the best performing starting line-ups in the league? The issue seemed to be defense and having no bench.

I think last year's offense with a better defense and a better bench would win the East this year.

But it hasn't worked out that way, I'm not sure if it's less an indictment on Wall's style of play and more of a result of him playing hurt and being generally ineffective.

The team won 49 games last year, so let's not talk about 55 wins like it actually happened.

And now we are seeing that the same team, with Sato in place of Wall, looks like it can win at the same pace, perhaps even at a slightly better pace. And that supports what I was saying earlier that so much of Wall's positive contributions are offset by his negatives.

So this is the same team from last year?

What about the improvements from Beal, Oubre, Mahimi, Satoransky, the addition of Mike Scott, a competent back up point guard in Frazier?

Last years team won 49 games...after starting 12-18. Thats a hell of a winning pace and a much bigger sample size then the 14 game Satoransky era. You didnt really touch on how good last years offense was. Beal and Porter both shot over 60% TS playing "Wall Ball" last year.

My point is that Im curious how this team with last years Wall would play. Of course that version of Wall with better defense and better shot selection would be good.