RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97

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RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Mon Mar 5, 2018 2:46 pm

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Chris Paul
24. Bob Pettit
25. George Mikan
26. Steve Nash
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Kevin Durant
29. Stephen Curry
30. Scottie Pippen
31. John Havlicek
32. Elgin Baylor
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Rick Barry
35. Gary Payton
36. Artis Gilmore
37. Jason Kidd
38. Walt Frazier
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Kevin McHale
41. George Gervin
42. Reggie Miller
43. Paul Pierce
44. Dwight Howard
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Bob Cousy
47. Ray Allen
48. Pau Gasol
49. Wes Unseld
50. Robert Parish
51. Russell Westbrook
52. Alonzo Mourning
53. Dikembe Mutombo
54. Manu Ginobili
55. Chauncey Billups
56. Willis Reed
57. Bob Lanier
58. Allen Iverson
59. Adrian Dantley
60. Dave Cowens
61. Elvin Hayes
62. Dominique Wilkins
63. Vince Carter
64. Alex English
65. Tracy McGrady
66. James Harden
67. Nate Thurmond
68. Sam Jones
69. Kevin Johnson
70. Bob McAdoo
71. Sidney Moncrief
72. Paul Arizin
73. Grant Hill
74. Bobby Jones
75. Chris Bosh
76. Tony Parker
77. Shawn Marion
78. Hal Greer
79. Ben Wallace
80. Dan Issel
81. Larry Nance
82. James Worthy
83. Chris Webber
84. Rasheed Wallace
85. Dennis Rodman
86. Horace Grant
87. Elton Brand
88. Terry Porter
89. Maurice Cheeks
90. Carmelo Anthony
91. Tim Hardaway
92. Jack Sikma
93. Billy Cunningham
94. Mookie Blaylock
95. Chet Walker
96. Kawhi Leonard
97. ??

Go.


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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#2 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Mar 5, 2018 4:43 pm

I've always been a proponent of high peak players. I also like to take into account non-NBA work if I think the player had NBA level superstar impact else where.

This makes Bill Walton an easy selection for me. I mean even with longevity taken into account, I would rather have 3 years or so of Bill Walton playing 60ish games than Carmelo Anthony.

Dominant two way centers just give your team such a crazy mismatch advantage. His passing, defense, scoring - I'm not sure if another player could have fit the championship blazers like Walton did - maybe Sabonis.


I vote for Bill Walton
My second vote will go to Anthony Davis


Edit: Changed my second vote from Mel Daniels to Anthony Davis.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Mon Mar 5, 2018 4:44 pm

Vote: Mel Daniels
Alternate: Jerry Lucas (Sharman, Howell, Hawkins, Beaty, Marques Johnson, or Dumars)


Why Mel Daniels? It may be winner's bias, but when I see a team win multiple championships, I tend to look more closely at the makeup of the teams to see WHY they are winning. I don't automatically value big minute contributors to championships, I have been down on Bob Cousy's role on those Celtic titles for example. However, I do value the championships a lot and how a team got there. Indiana was the Boston Celtics of the ABA. They didn't have nearly the big name stars of Kentucky (Gilmore, Issel, Dampier), New York (Erving, Kenon), or even San Antonio (Gervin, Silas, Paultz) but they won the most and the most consistently. Breaking those teams down, Slick Leonard was a competent coach but had little success elsewhere and wasn't that highly regarded for either his game management or his player development. Their guards were pretty weak. Freddie Lewis a below average PG, not much of a distributor and only an average shooter and defender, while their 2 guards changed regularly and were unimpressive. Roger Brown at SF was a nice scorer with good range, great handles, and enough variety that his nickname was "the man of a thousand moves." He was definitely a key factor but he didn't play much defense or add much rebounding or playmaking. The PF were Bob Netolicky (the self proclaimed Joe Namath of the ABA) who was another excellent scorer and decent rebounder with no interest in defense then they replaced him with George McGinnis, another volume scorer (less efficient) and a great rebounder who generated a lot of assists, and turnovers. But for me, looking at this franchise's success, it was all built around Mel Daniels in the middle. A good scorer (consistently close to 20 a game on above average efficiency), great rebounder (usually among top in league), and powerful defender (better positionally than in help defense) who set the tone of the team and acted as their enforcer. His career was short and corresponds almost exactly with the rise and fall of the Pacers as a force in the ABA (his rookie year, he apparently shot a lot of long jump shots and had poor efficiency for Minnesota, which Leonard immediately banned when he came to Indiana).


Mel Daniels is certainly the only multiple MVP winner left. Nobody else changed or dominanted on both ends to the same degree for more than 1-1.5 years (Walton, Hawkins). Daniels was the best player on two championship teams plus a willing support role on a third championship though in a weak league (probably better than the pre-Russell 50s though). I tend to value defense, particularly for big men, and Mel was basically the original Alonzo Mourning with more rebounding but less shotblocking or, to use dhsilv2's comp, Moses Malone (without the longevity of course). He was a 1st round NBA pick (the first to sign with the ABA) and in the NBA would probably have been one of the best centers as well, not in the Jabbar league, but contending with Unseld/Cowens for the rebounding leaderboard and 2nd team All-Defense with good scoring (but poor playmaking). The two MVPs show he was valued above his box scores.

DANIELS v. WALTON: Both strong defensive centers (Walton's shotblocking puts him a level above) who will get you a solid 15-20ppg primarily on power moves inside. Walton's passing also gives him a MAJOR benefit over Daniels, it's why Walton gets consideration for top 10 centers of all time while Daniels doesn't. Both starred in weak basketball leagues, even after the merger, the 70s were still an era of rapid expansion with double digits in new teams over the previous decade though Walton's again stronger than Daniels. So, all else being equal, Walton should be considerably more valuable than Mel Daniels. BUT ALL ELSE ISN'T EQUAL! Walton is healthy enough for the playoffs ONCE in his career as a starter (plus a year as a top reserve). Daniels has a strong 5-6 year prime as the best or one of the best centers in the ABA with 2 MVPs and 3 titles. 6 years of prime Daniels is worth more than 1 year of prime Walton, plus a couple of partial seasons where he can't make it to the playoffs. And Daniel's 2-3 years of non-prime play is appreciably closer in value to Walton's non-prime career though I like Walton's reserve season better than Daniel's time in Minnesota or Memphis.

Getting mentioned by position:
PG DJ, Archibald
SG Sharman, Dumars, Lou Hudson, Richmond, Hornacek
SF Marques Johnson, Bernard King, Wilkes, Dandridge, Mullin, Hagan
PF Amare, Connie Hawkins, Bailey Howell, Paul Silas, Kemp, McGinnis, Jerry Lucas, Buck Williams, DeBusshcere
C Mel Daniels, Mark Gasol, Bellamy, Yao. Divac, Zelmo, Johnston, Walton
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#4 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Mar 5, 2018 4:54 pm

Vote 1 - Tiny Archibald

Vote 2 - Mel Daniels

- 13 year career
- 5x All NBA (3 1st, 2 2nd)
- 2 top 5 and 3 top 10 MVP finishes
- Only player to ever lead league in scoring and assists (per 100 he still measures as elite, especially for his era)

His ability to get to the line was pretty special for someone his size. He has a career FT rate of .456 with 5 seasons over .500. His prime basically lasted 6 seasons, but he was highly productive and efficient:

Per game: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/architi01.html#1972-1977-sum:per_game

Advanced: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/architi01.html#1972-1977-sum:advanced

The lack of playoff success before Boston leaves something to be desired, but he wasn’t exactly on teams rich with talent, either. He was an important piece for the celtics for a few seasons, and played a big role in their 81 title run. His transition into that role post prime / injury is impressive to me.

Even though we should take anecdotal commentary on players with a grain of salt, i always find it rewarding to look back at them for players before my time. In clips from the Sports Illustrated article below, we see a dominant guard who was a precursor to the plethora of drive and kick PGs we see in the NBA today.

Archibald was one of the smallest players to come into the NBA in years, being listed at a bit over six feet and weighing about 150 pounds. He had speed, but the trend was to big guards. The first time that Cincinnati Coach Bob Cousy and General Manager Joe Axel-son met Archibald at a Memphis motel they mistook him for a bellboy. Now Cousy says he might quit the Kings—the team was renamed upon being shifted to Kansas City-Omaha last year—if he ever were to lose Archibald.

- - - - -

[Former teammate Norm Van Lier] “The brother's mean, man. He comes to play every day and he does it to death. I don't believe there is anything he can't do, and his moves are inexhaustible. He'll stand out there 25 to 30 feet away from the basket dribbling. It looks so easy to go up and take the ball away, right? Wrong. Nate's just baiting you. He wants you to make a move for the ball because when you do, you're all his."

"Nate's one of the most unselfish players in the game," says Chicago's Bob Love. "I've seen him go a whole quarter without shooting, and he still killed us whistling those passes in underneath. The fact he led the league in assists explains his unselfishness. If anything, he's underrated."

- - - - -

Archibald's style has altered the order of the NBA. Once the behemoths were the intimidators; now they find themselves helpless as Archibald bears in on them. "I feel like I can draw a foul most every time," he says. "You would think that the big man has an advantage, but I would say I have it, because he has his arms up high and he has to come down on you. I get shots blocked, but not very often, because I don't just shoot a layup. I go right at the big man and make him commit himself, then I make my move." Nowadays many of the league's top teams have a small guard.

"Nate has added an extra dimension to the game," says Portland Guard Charlie Davis. "Cousy and them could clear out the ball, pass it, but there's never been one like Nate who could set those dudes up, score and pass." Says Jerry West, "He looks like a high school kid and plays like a superstar. One step and he's at full speed and gone." When asked if Archibald's "dominance" of the ball could hurt Kansas City, Oscar Robertson looked incredulous, then responded drily, "The only way his style could hurt them is if he played against them.”


https://www.si.com/vault/1973/10/15/618390/tiny-does-very-big-things

Highlights (music NSFW):

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#5 » by trex_8063 » Mon Mar 5, 2018 5:58 pm

I feel like my initial votes might be the "throw-away" sort----because no one else appears to be giving them serious consideration---but I'm leaning toward Walt Bellamy and Dave DeBusschere. Is anyone but me thinking of them?

Would also like Joe Dumars to get more traction, maybe Shawn Kemp, too. I could see getting behind Mel Daniels or Vlade Divac in a runoff of the candidates who do have traction.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#6 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Mar 5, 2018 7:13 pm

trex_8063 wrote:I feel like my initial votes might be the "throw-away" sort----because no one else appears to be giving them serious consideration---but I'm leaning toward Walt Bellamy and Dave DeBusschere. Is anyone but me thinking of them?

Would also like Joe Dumars to get more traction, maybe Shawn Kemp, too. I could see getting behind Mel Daniels or Vlade Divac in a runoff of the candidates who do have traction.


Bellamy is a guy I was looking at, but I have Vlade ahead of him as a center. I'm open to convincing to move him up but he'd have to pass Vlade and I don't see it. He's a runoff guy i'd take vs Walton.

Tiny, Vlade, Dumars, DJ...that's roughly where I'm at. Kemp has some issues...
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#7 » by Owly » Mon Mar 5, 2018 7:40 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:I feel like my initial votes might be the "throw-away" sort----because no one else appears to be giving them serious consideration---but I'm leaning toward Walt Bellamy and Dave DeBusschere. Is anyone but me thinking of them?

Would also like Joe Dumars to get more traction, maybe Shawn Kemp, too. I could see getting behind Mel Daniels or Vlade Divac in a runoff of the candidates who do have traction.


Bellamy is a guy I was looking at, but I have Vlade ahead of him as a center. I'm open to convincing to move him up but he'd have to pass Vlade and I don't see it. He's a runoff guy i'd take vs Walton.

Tiny, Vlade, Dumars, DJ...that's roughly where I'm at. Kemp has some issues...

What do we mean by Kemp "has some issues"? Literally everyone has issues with their resume at this point.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#8 » by penbeast0 » Mon Mar 5, 2018 7:50 pm

Owly wrote:...
What do we mean by Kemp "has some issues"? Literally everyone has issues with their resume at this point.


Most guys are either genuine stars/MVP candidates with serious longevity issues or guys who were pretty good for a long time but not generally the best players on their teams. Kemp is a guy who was pretty good but not for that long and had real maturity problems in addition to that. Hard to see him as having a more valuable career than a guy like Joe Dumars for example.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#9 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Mar 5, 2018 7:55 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Owly wrote:...
What do we mean by Kemp "has some issues"? Literally everyone has issues with their resume at this point.


Most guys are either genuine stars/MVP candidates with serious longevity issues or guys who were pretty good for a long time but not generally the best players on their teams. Kemp is a guy who was pretty good but not for that long and had real maturity problems in addition to that. Hard to see him as having a more valuable career than a guy like Joe Dumars for example.


I think that was a rather polite view on kemp.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#10 » by trex_8063 » Mon Mar 5, 2018 8:18 pm

1st vote: Walt Bellamy
Leaves something to be desired defensively, but a heckuva offensive man in the middle and entirely decent rebounder. And he provided that for a good long stretch, as he was more or less an ironman: missed just five games TOTAL in his first ELEVEN seasons, despite playing >35 mpg in 9 of those 11 seasons (>40 mpg in 5 of them); including one season in which (due to a mid-season trade) managed to play 88 rs games (a record I’ll wager will never be broken unless they change the length of the rs). Even in his 12th season he was still playing 37.9 mpg (missed an acceptable 8 games that year), and was still playing 31.7 mpg in his 13th season (was still a 15.2 PER, .107 WS/48, +0.3 BPM player in that 13th season, too).

Pen has in the past remarked that Bellamy “ate his way to mediocrity”, or something to that effect. I’ve never been clear on whether that was his choice of words, or quoting someone (nor have I seen a photo where he looks remotely obese, or even as big as guys like Bob Lanier and DeMarcus Cousins). But when a guy is still----statistically, per minute----an above average player in nearly 32 mpg in his 13th season (at age 34), and had a near All-Star caliber 11th season at age 32, and basically never missed games in his whole careerâ€Ĥâ€Ĥ.idk, it’s collectively not very supportive of this “lazy” or “didn’t take care of himself” narrative.

Bells, in 1,043 career rs games averaged 37.3 mpg (nearly 39,000 career minutes--->42nd all-time in NBA/ABA history) while averaging an estimated 22.2 pts/100 possessions @ +5.91% rTS, 15.1 reb and 2.7 ast per 100 possessions. 19.8 PER and .160 WS/48 over those 13+ big-minute seasons.

fwiw, wrt impact: his prime regressed WOWY is +2.9 (+2.7 for career), which is very respectable.

It’s hard to not give him serious consideration at this point.


2nd vote: Dave DeBusschere
Statistically, DeBusschere’s fairly underwhelming. He was a pinch too willing to pop up those mid-range jumpers for my taste, though that was to no small degree a by-product of era. He’s got range, for sure (have seen him fire away out to ~20 feet or so, even a quick release curling off a screen at the top of the key), and given he was usually playing the PF, that does provide a positive spacing effect; likely would fit better in a 3pt era. I’d be more comfortable with him (likely would have supported him earlier), if he were just a bit more accurate/efficient as a scorer (his FT% could be better, too).
But with DeBusschere, obviously his defense [and rebounding] is where the lion’s share of his value comes from. Widely credited with being one of the very best defensive forwards of his generation, he appears to exhibit versatility, physical play, and decent rebounding for a PF/combo forward.
Closest modern comparison is Draymond Green (but without the playmaking). Dave did his thing for 10 fairly consistent seasons, too (plus one irrelevant injury-hit season), and oddly seemed to hang up his sneakers at the height of game (his final season is one of his very best). Not sure if there was an off-season injury that went into that decision or what.

WOWY data (looking only at W/L column) is a bit inconsistent, though the huge jump the Knicks make in trading Bellamy and Komives for him is certainly in his favour:
WOWY
‘63: 34-46 (.425) with
‘64: 4-11 (.267) with, 19-46 (.292) without
‘65: 31-48 (.392) with, 0-1 without
‘66: 22-57 (.278) with, 0-1 without
‘67: 30-48 (.385) with, 0-3 without
‘68: 38-42 (.475) with, 2-0 without
‘69: Pistons were 11-18 (.379) [DeBusschere played in all 29] prior to trading him for Bellamy and Komives, 21-32 (.396) after the trade. Knicks were 18-17 (.514) before the trade, 36-11 (.766) after obtaining DeBusschere (he played in all 47).
‘70: 57-22 (.722) with, 3-0 without
‘71: 52-29 (.642) with, 0-1 without
‘72: 47-33 (.588) with, 1-1 (.500) without
‘73: 52-25 (.675) with, 5-0 without
‘74: 41-30 (.577) with, 8-3 (.727) with

Elgee’s regressed WOWY (looking at pt differential) rates him as an elite +5.9 for his prime (+5.5 for career).
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#11 » by Owly » Mon Mar 5, 2018 9:14 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Owly wrote:...
What do we mean by Kemp "has some issues"? Literally everyone has issues with their resume at this point.


Most guys are either genuine stars/MVP candidates with serious longevity issues or guys who were pretty good for a long time but not generally the best players on their teams. Kemp is a guy who was pretty good but not for that long and had real maturity problems in addition to that. Hard to see him as having a more valuable career than a guy like Joe Dumars for example.

The genuine MVP candidates (Archibald, Walton), imo, don't have enough years of quality to add enough value overall.

But in terms of "pretty good" ...

from the last project looking at was the roughly top 2000 player seasons I defined .144 WS/48 and 17.9 PER as my arbitrary benchmarks for very good. Kemp has seven seasons clearing both those bars. But moreover he doesn't clear them marginally. Each of those seasons are north of 20.4 PER and .169 WS/48. By the boxscore, whilst he is not a dominating force, a first tier superstar he is consistently, for a spell, in that tier below. Versus a Dumars, he'll win on career metrics, but has much more value above needle moving thresholds. Then too, and this isn't something I'm so much interested in, but others are, there's his playoff "game-raising". He's 43rd/41st (combined/NBA only lists) in career playoff PER (20.55) and 60th/54th (combined/NBA only) in career playoff WS/48 (.1548)- this over a 2937 minute playoff career. He benefits of course by less playoff minutes outside his prime (but then is hardly the only one to do so - cf Isiah Thomas whose metrics are a below Kemp's).

Now there's a case that Dumars' defense, through his prime (maybe less so when he was out of his prime and forced to guard ones and injury hit, but that's a trifecta that would hurt anyone) is vastly underrated by the boxscore. That Dumars was a force for cohesion, professionalism, class and that can help a team isn't doubted.

But I can't help dislike a perception that Kemp was getting dinged for what he wasn't, rather than judging him on what he was. He was foul prone, which (along with coaches conservatism) kept him from hitting more spectacular career totals or yearly averages (or career value). He's not a leader, or super mature, but I'm not sure he's some hugely disruptive force throughout the majority of his prime. And he was highly productive, not early NBA and was a (probably the) leading contributor on a consistently very good team (Seattle underrated through his prime - check the SRSes) and he held up in the playoffs (arguably let down by lack of a good playoff narrative and a negative team one, though looking beyond the first round exits otoh they played Jordan's Bulls as tough as anyone; then lost in the '93 Conference Finals 3-4 being outscored by just a point over the series and lost a similarly close 2nd round series versus Houston in '97 - say, certainly winnable with a healthy McMillan rather than Wingate as their 3rd wing).

I don't think Kemp's the sure thing here (much of the high productivity stuff could probably have been said about Marques Johnson too, and he was part of a good team - or you could look at older era guys or guys mentioned a previous short-ish list I made or beyond). Still there seemed a fairly casual dismissal of his career (just "has some issues"), and I think it warrants a closer look.

[post edited to correct typo]
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#12 » by pandrade83 » Tue Mar 6, 2018 12:45 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:I've always been a proponent of high peak players. I also like to take into account non-NBA work if I think the player had NBA level superstar impact else where.

This makes Bill Walton an easy selection for me. I mean even with longevity taken into account, I would rather have 3 years or so of Bill Walton playing 60ish games than Carmelo Anthony.

Dominant two way centers just give your team such a crazy mismatch advantage. His passing, defense, scoring - I'm not sure if another player could have fit the championship blazers like Walton did - maybe Sabonis.


I vote for Bill Walton
My second vote will go to Anthony Davis


Edit: Changed my second vote from Mel Daniels to Anthony Davis.


Friendly reminder: This year is not eligible for Davis as it relates to this project. Would you still take him if this year were not included?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#13 » by pandrade83 » Tue Mar 6, 2018 12:46 am

trex_8063 wrote:I feel like my initial votes might be the "throw-away" sort----because no one else appears to be giving them serious consideration---but I'm leaning toward Walt Bellamy and Dave DeBusschere. Is anyone but me thinking of them?

Would also like Joe Dumars to get more traction, maybe Shawn Kemp, too. I could see getting behind Mel Daniels or Vlade Divac in a runoff of the candidates who do have traction.


I could get behind Dave D in a run-off depending on who he's up against. Bellamy is a no-go for me - I don't think anyone has even been mentioned that I'd vote for him against.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#14 » by pandrade83 » Tue Mar 6, 2018 2:49 am

Primary Vote: Bill Walton
Alternate: Anthony Davis


I'm not sure what new to write about Walton - the below is a copy/paste. The only new thing I can write - and this speaks to some of the intangibles - he looks really fun to play with. I think Bird & McHale enjoyed playing with him based on the way they've spoken of him post career. I've had discussions with people on numerous fronts & I hope I raised some awareness on his other years besides '77. Moving on.

Some other high peak short longevity guys:

Davis - one of few guys to achieve 30 PER - and I'm not taking this year into consideration - though I must admit that what he's done has raised my awareness of him. Biggest problems: Made playoffs once & has yet to win a game although he did acquit himself while there (31-11-3 block, 61% TS is quite impressive). Has 5 years total but 4 offer a lot of value.

Tiny - I think the '73 season is quite impressive - 30/10 while leading the league's #1 offense is nothing to sneeze at. Unfortunately, they didn't make the playoffs at all. The one time TIny made the playoffs in his prime, he was bad and never had a PER above 15 in any playoff run. I perceive significant drop-off aside from the 73 season and see him as strictly a one way player.

Penny - Doesn't peak quite as high as Davis or Tiny - would've really helped if Orlando won title in '95 or '96 (or at least won a game against Houston or Chicago). Has OK longevity - but I don't think he's going to get my vote.

Kemp's kind of a hybrid between high peak & the longer longevity guys. I also have fond memories of him from my childhood but he also leaves a gigantic self-inflicted what if on my memory as well.


I'm not too picky about who goes in next at this point to be honest - the separation is so small. I see Davis getting some traction, I really like watching him - I hope you join the train - just keep in mind that this year doesn't count.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Synopsis of argument: Bill Walton has a Top 15 peak in '77 but he has more years of value besides that. He has impact in '76, '84-'86 & won MVP in '78 with Portland on pace for a win total that would've put them in consideration for team of the decade if not for injury. The years people don't think of when they think of him ('76, '84-'86) are very high impact, low minute years.


I think we all understand Bill Walton's peak. But it's another to see it.



Walton finished 13th in the most recent RGM Peaks project - the next 10 players behind him:

Julius Erving
Oscar Robertson
Dwayne Wade
Steph Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
Jerry West
Kevin Durant
Patrick Ewing
Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant

That's quite a list of people to be ahead of - and so we have to keep that value in mind.

The most common rebuttal I'm going to hear is "That's great, but it is just the one year."

But if you dig deeper, you see he offers more value than "just the one year". It's certainly problematic to my case that these years are not going to be consecutive, but let's look at years where I think he offered some meaningful value. I'm going to omit '77 from this because we're all familiar with it.

'76 - Portland goes 26-25 with; 11-20 without. Even though Walton isn't yet the defensive force he'd become, Portland is 6th in DRtg. Walton averages 16.1 pts-13.4 reb-4.3 assists + 1.6 blocks. He does this despite logging just 33 mpg. He was healthy at the end of the year so it's likely he could have played in the playoffs.
'78 - Portland goes 48-10 with; 10-14 without! That's the difference between a 68 win pace & a 34 win pace. Walton is the anchor of a super team - and this is after the merger. Walton wins MVP and the impact on winning is quite pronounced. Walton averages 19-13-5-2.5 blocks this year on 52% shooting. It's unfortunate that the injury robs him of what otherwise would have likely been a Portland title - but this year is impactful for the regular season.

In '84 & '85, Walton plays 75% of the games for the Clippers. It's not well remembered but he's still effective - even the limited clips we have of that time support it.



From a scouting standpoint, Walton still possesses stellar passing capabilities & excellent rim protection. You'll see that his ability to get up & down the court is diminished considerably - his quickness isn't as strong as the Portland tape, but he's still an effective player. The diminished mobility robs him of some defensive impact - but while on court he's impactful.

In '84 the Clippers are 23-32 with, 7-20 without - a 34 win pace with & 21 win pace without. Walton is a 12-9-3 player plus nearly 2 blocks per game in just 26 mpg with a TS% of 57%.
In '85 it's a similar story - the Clippers are a 33 win pace team with Walton & a 22 win pace team without.

Then in '86 he joins Boston and becomes a key member of one of the teams in the GOAT discussion.

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His playing time is limited - just 19 mpg - but the rate statistics are impressive: 14-13-4-2.5 blocks on 61% TS.

All told, he has what this board determines is the 13th best peak, plus 5 more strong impact - if limited minute years.

It's not just the magical '77 campaign.

I mentioned at the top if we get to slot 96 and Mookie isn't in that I'm going to flip it and here's why - and this is how I'll wrap up.

Pretend that you have a full business day to cover the history of professional basketball with an alien. What topics would you cover? What names would you mention?

Go through our list starting at around slot #65. Do those guys get covered? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I promise you that Bill Walton gets discussed.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#15 » by trex_8063 » Tue Mar 6, 2018 4:54 pm

pandrade83 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:I feel like my initial votes might be the "throw-away" sort----because no one else appears to be giving them serious consideration---but I'm leaning toward Walt Bellamy and Dave DeBusschere. Is anyone but me thinking of them?

Would also like Joe Dumars to get more traction, maybe Shawn Kemp, too. I could see getting behind Mel Daniels or Vlade Divac in a runoff of the candidates who do have traction.


I could get behind Dave D in a run-off depending on who he's up against. Bellamy is a no-go for me - I don't think anyone has even been mentioned that I'd vote for him against.



Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Karl-Anthony Towns? Where do you rank him among today's centers?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#16 » by trex_8063 » Tue Mar 6, 2018 4:58 pm

Thru post #15:

Bill Walton - 2 (pandrade83, HeartBreakKid)
Mel Daniels - 1 (penbeast0)
Tiny Archibald - 1 (Clyde Frazier)
Walt Bellamy - 1 (trex_8063)


About 22-23 hours until runoff.

Spoiler:
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#17 » by pandrade83 » Tue Mar 6, 2018 6:30 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:I feel like my initial votes might be the "throw-away" sort----because no one else appears to be giving them serious consideration---but I'm leaning toward Walt Bellamy and Dave DeBusschere. Is anyone but me thinking of them?

Would also like Joe Dumars to get more traction, maybe Shawn Kemp, too. I could see getting behind Mel Daniels or Vlade Divac in a runoff of the candidates who do have traction.


I could get behind Dave D in a run-off depending on who he's up against. Bellamy is a no-go for me - I don't think anyone has even been mentioned that I'd vote for him against.



Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Karl-Anthony Towns? Where do you rank him among today's centers?


I'm not a fan of KAT. A big who is weak defensively is problematic for me. And what's perhaps the most frustrating is that he has all the tools to be a strong defender . . . he's just not one. Same for Wiggins. It feels cultural and I thought Thibs & Taj would make it better. I hope they get bounced in round 1.

If all I care about is winning this year - long term doesn't matter to me - if healthy -

Embiid, Cousins, Gobert, Giannis, KP, Jokic - all guys I'd rather have. Draymond/Horford level is where I have to start to think more and then it depends on what does my team look like.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#18 » by Outside » Tue Mar 6, 2018 7:25 pm

Vote: Bill Walton
Alternate: Mel Daniels


Walton's glorious peak, brief as it was, earns him a spot on a top 100 list. He was a tremendously skilled and gifted player who made an impact on every aspect of the game. Besides being great with Portland, it helps that he was good with the Clippers and very good in his role with the Celtics. Athleticism, skill, intelligence, competitiveness, joy for the game, and belief to the core in playing to maximize the sum of the parts rather than any individual player.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#19 » by SactoKingsFan » Wed Mar 7, 2018 3:26 am

Primary: Vlade Divac

One of the more underrated defensive bigs. Looks like a legit defensive anchor based on the RAPM data we have and DBPM. Wasn't known as a great rim protector but had a stretch during his prime as a good rim protector. Divac was also a very good post defender, mobile enough to effectively defend the PnR, had active hands and was quite skilled at drawing offensive fouls.

On the offensive end Divac brought all-time great passing and vision, great hands, some shooting range and solid to good low post scoring. Had the passing, vision and court awareness to frequently run the offense from the mid to high post. We also know Divac was a good leader and could be one of the more impactful players on a contender.

Unlike some of the other top candidates, Divac's career didn't suffer from problematic longevity. Career and prime longevity look quite good, especially at this point in the project.

Alt: Mel Daniels

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #97 

Post#20 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Mar 7, 2018 12:56 pm

So last time I think I covered Walton and his peak vs his total career value. Overall summary is that it looks like a net negative in terms of intangibles, even his peak involved missing a LOT of games, and simply put I can't say I agree with how highly his peak is seen though between him and Tiny I do think Walton was a bit better single year peak vs single year peak. So for this round I wanted to go back and review my top two in tiny and Vlade.

Tiny provides one of the best peaks and the best offensive peak left. He had about 4 other star level years and then becomes a starter for the celtics who by most metrics is an average starter, but at the same time goes on to make an all nba team and a couple allstar teams in that role and wins a title. Overall for his career Tiny roughly doubles Walton in career winshare, VORP is not reliable on Tiny as his peak was omitted, but VORP was much more favorable on Walton. But what about Vlade?

So last night I went through Elgee's old I think he referenced it as dirty RAPM? Anyway his old player rating which seems to align pretty well with RAPM. http://web.archive.org/web/20150418174421/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1997.html

Year after year after year in the 90's with only a few exceptions Vlade was in the top 15 or so (often top 20) on that metric with every player above him already in from this project. The consistency here, the length of time, and the overall quality is really staggering. I didn't think I'd do it, but there's still something in the back of my head telling me Tiny's defense might really have been that bad.

Vote Vlade

Alt Tiny

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