The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Trugger]

Simmons subbed out 2 boards short of a triple , bet Mitchell would have been left in to pad his stats !!

Simmons is averaging two more minutes per game than Mitchell.

#foh

Is that true of the last 30 or 40 games ??

[commentatorer]

Philly's last 2 games-
@MIL: Simmons+7, Embiid -10
@CHA: Simmons+16, Embiid -5

[MR28]

You'd have to be delusional to think Mitchell is a better player than Simmons right now..

[Sactowndog]

Here is an analysis of Bogdanovich. It leaves out the nasty step back 3 he is developing.

http://hoopshype.com/2018/02/22/bogdan-bogdanovic-the-nbas-next-great-european-wing/

[APettyJ]

I fear they'll, if they still do, give co-rookie of the year award. It will be another travesty much like the Hill/Kidd co-rookie award.

I was worried, then I checked out why Kidd gut votes.

Turns out he led the league in triple doubles that season, and that his team experienced the largest jump in wins that year, going from 13 to 36.

As we all know, Simmons is quite close to surpassing Kidd's total from that season, and the Sixers are experiencing a sizable jump in wins, while the Jazz have actually regressed in their win totals.

Kidd did some remarkable things that season, some things better than any one else in the NBA. What has Mitchell done on that level?

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[Revived]

Here is an analysis of Bogdanovich. It leaves out the nasty step back 3 he is developing.

http://hoopshype.com/2018/02/22/bogdan-bogdanovic-the-nbas-next-great-european-wing/

He’s got that Ginobili game to him. Just needs to learn to flop well.

[Sixersftw]

I fear they'll, if they still do, give co-rookie of the year award. It will be another travesty much like the Hill/Kidd co-rookie award.

As we all know, Simmons is quite close to surpassing Kidd's total from that season, and the Sixers are experiencing a sizable jump in wins, while the Jazz have actually regressed in their win totals.

I think Simmons is the clear winner but using the Jazz's win total is a bit disingenuous considering the off season roster turnover and Gobert's injury plagued season.

[APettyJ]

I fear they'll, if they still do, give co-rookie of the year award. It will be another travesty much like the Hill/Kidd co-rookie award.

As we all know, Simmons is quite close to surpassing Kidd's total from that season, and the Sixers are experiencing a sizable jump in wins, while the Jazz have actually regressed in their win totals.

I think Simmons is the clear winner but using the Jazz's win total is a bit disingenuous considering the off season roster turnover and Gobert's injury plagued season.

Not disingenuous. Not mentioning it to detract from Mitchell, but simply as a contrast to what Kidd did to earn co-ROY honors. Question remains: what extraordinary thing has Mitchell done this season?

[bebopdeluxe]

I fear they'll, if they still do, give co-rookie of the year award. It will be another travesty much like the Hill/Kidd co-rookie award.

As we all know, Simmons is quite close to surpassing Kidd's total from that season, and the Sixers are experiencing a sizable jump in wins, while the Jazz have actually regressed in their win totals.

I think Simmons is the clear winner but using the Jazz's win total is a bit disingenuous considering the off season roster turnover and Gobert's injury plagued season.

Gobert's injury - and the impact that it has had on the Jazz's overall record - just points out that he is the most valuable guy on the Jazz...and blows up this whole "Simmons has Embiid, while Mitchell is carrying the Jazz" narrative that the Mitchell fanboys roll out there (when they don't fall back on the lazy POINTZ!!! crap).

[bebopdeluxe]

I fear they'll, if they still do, give co-rookie of the year award. It will be another travesty much like the Hill/Kidd co-rookie award.

I was worried, then I checked out why Kidd gut votes.

Turns out he led the league in triple doubles that season, and that his team experienced the largest jump in wins that year, going from 13 to 36.

As we all know, Simmons is quite close to surpassing Kidd's total from that season, and the Sixers are experiencing a sizable jump in wins, while the Jazz have actually regressed in their win totals.

Kidd did some remarkable things that season, some things better than any one else in the NBA. What has Mitchell done on that level?

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Mitchell is - last I looked - the 26th leading scorer in the NBA. A rookie scoring 20ppg is certainly worthy of respect, and in just about every other year would be enough to win ROY.

Simmons' numbers are completely on another level, however.

"Counting" stats. Advanced metrics. All-Defense-Team-level defense. And a team that will win 20 more games this year than last - including potentially homecourt in the playoffs.

And, yet...this is a "close race".

[cl2117]

Simmons with a pretty goddamn impressive stat-line last night. I was saying this on the trade board, but he's the only "rookie" I'd not consider trading for the #1 pick in 2018. Every other guy from this draft and last I would roll the dice on trading for a shot at Ayton (and most for Doncic as well), but he's just SO well rounded, I'd be really excited to build my team around him.

Monk on the other hand looked pretty awful. He reminds me of a worse Jamal Crawford. I think it was on the Lowe Post podcast last week, but it might have been another, but they were talking about "irrational confidence guys" with JR Smith being the example. Monk has that kind of irrational confidence as he's never seen an off-balance jumper he didn't want to put up. Too early to tell if he'll be able to end up being a productive one or flame out, but that's the route I see ahead of him.

Caught a bit of the Nugs vs. Mavs as well and liked what I saw from DSJ. I keep panicking that I'm going to see one of his knees explode every time he takes off, but I really liked his overall play in a pretty ugly game.

As we all know, Simmons is quite close to surpassing Kidd's total from that season, and the Sixers are experiencing a sizable jump in wins, while the Jazz have actually regressed in their win totals.

I think Simmons is the clear winner but using the Jazz's win total is a bit disingenuous considering the off season roster turnover and Gobert's injury plagued season.

Not disingenuous. Not mentioning it to detract from Mitchell, but simply as a contrast to what Kidd did to earn co-ROY honors. Question remains: what extraordinary thing has Mitchell done this season?

It's disingenuous to mention it without providing the context that they lost their best player over the summer in Gordon Hayward. If the roster was largely the same then I think it'd be fair to point to a drop or only marginal increase in win totals as him not having the kind of impact that people are suggesting, but given that they lost their best player and now have had a big in-season trade, it muddies the water too much to allow that kind of inference (at least not without the proper context).

[Litany]

I think there is a lot that is going into this becoming a close race for the ROTY. For each of the two main contenders, there are factors that are causing people following the race to fall for either player, and I won't be surprised if the award goes either way.

<>Ben Simmons is having an incredible rookie season. He has an incredibly developed body for such a young kid and he is clearly a great competitor. The fact the Sixers also have Embiid at such a young age and he's dominating is almost unfair, haha. They're clearly one of the favorites to contend for as long as these two are together and healthy.

Simmons has great instincts (offensively and defensively) and he has a lot of tools. I can absolutely see the Magic Johnson comparisons in style and ability. I do think that his lack of a jumpshot will become more of an issue in the playoffs. In the current league, where the 3-pt shot is critical, it is challenging when a guard doesn't have this ability and can't make up for it with ability to get to the line and make the free throws. Rotations are tightened and the game slows down some. Instead of teams coming off a game against another team they had a gameplan for and pivoting, they can make adjustments to expose the weakenesses of players they're facing again in a couple days.

Many of the basketball writers are talking about how teams will gameplan for Simmons due to his poor jumpshot and FT's. Simmons will still be a valuable player to his team due to his defense and playmaking but he will need to work on the ways he scores. As rotations get tightened and teams can gameplan for Simmons and his limitations, I think he'll have some struggles with scoring because of his allergy to the 3-pt shot and outside shot and poor FT's. Lucky for him he has a center that can score in so many ways and has an outside shot, but it means that it will be especially difficult in the playoffs for the team if Simmons is on the floor with any more than one player who doesn't have a 3-pt shot.

<>Donovan Mitchell's main strength is his scoring prowess (or as some have tried SO HARD to diminishingly describe it in this thread, his ability to get Pointzzzzz). The variety of ways he can score isn't some small thing. It's not like we're talking about Donovan Mitchell having the ability to jump high, or dunk, or a nice crossover. The current leader for the MVP should be a great reminder for the importance of having a wide variety of ways to score. I know people have posted videos that have touched on the awesome variety of ways Donovan can score. He scores in so many ways it's almost unbelievable. People have been comparing Mitchell to Wade with a jumpshot and it's crazy to watch him and think that yourself as a fan of his and wonder if you're crazy but then hear other people say they see the same thing. His ball handling, his instincts, his hesitations, his court awareness, his ability to use screens and blow by, variety of ways he finishes at the rim going off the wrong foot, variety of ways he creates space with these moves, his 3-pt shot that is at 35%, his FT's which are already top level, and the way he keeps adding to his toolbox. Teams have been gameplanning for Donovan and it's fun to see him struggle at first with that but then learn ways he can expose them. He's a student of the game too. He pays attention to what other players have done to improve and has a hunger to expand that toolbox. Then add the fact that he has good defensive skills and has a desire to play that side of the ball. He's shouldering a lot of the scoring responsibility but he puts in effort there. Donovan also enjoys having the ball down the stretch. He has good 4th quarter stats and likes to put the game away.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I can see the award going either way. Both Simmons and Mitchell are going to be elite level players. What BOTH of them are doing is historic and so much fun to watch. I won't be disappointed if it goes to Simmons, but it won't surprise me one bit if MItchell gets it for being the leading scorer as a rookie for a team that makes the playoffs...all when the league wrote them off after losing Hayward. It is huge that the Jazz have Mitchell and Gobert just as it's huge the Sixers have Embiid and Simmons. So fun!

[bebopdeluxe]

I think there is a lot that is going into this becoming a close race for the ROTY. For each of the two main contenders, there are factors that are causing people following the race to fall for either player, and I won't be surprised if the award goes either way.

<>Ben Simmons is having an incredible rookie season. He has an incredibly developed body for such a young kid and he is clearly a great competitor. The fact the Sixers also have Embiid at such a young age and he's dominating is almost unfair, haha. They're clearly one of the favorites to contend for as long as these two are together and healthy.

Simmons has great instincts (offensively and defensively) and he has a lot of tools. I can absolutely see the Magic Johnson comparisons in style and ability. I do think that his lack of a jumpshot will become more of an issue in the playoffs. In the current league, where the 3-pt shot is critical, it is challenging when a guard doesn't have this ability and can't make up for it with ability to get to the line and make the free throws. Rotations are tightened and the game slows down some. Instead of teams coming off a game against another team they had a gameplan for and pivoting, they can make adjustments to expose the weakenesses of players they're facing again in a couple days.

Many of the basketball writers are talking about how teams will gameplan for Simmons due to his poor jumpshot and FT's. Simmons will still be a valuable player to his team due to his defense and playmaking but he will need to work on the ways he scores. As rotations get tightened and teams can gameplan for Simmons and his limitations, I think he'll have some struggles with scoring because of his allergy to the 3-pt shot and outside shot and poor FT's. Lucky for him he has a center that can score in so many ways and has an outside shot, but it means that it will be especially difficult in the playoffs for the team if Simmons is on the floor with any more than one player who doesn't have a 3-pt shot.

<>Donovan Mitchell's main strength is his scoring prowess (or as some have tried SO HARD to diminishingly describe it in this thread, his ability to get Pointzzzzz). The variety of ways he can score isn't some small thing. It's not like we're talking about Donovan Mitchell having the ability to jump high, or dunk, or a nice crossover. The current leader for the MVP should be a great reminder for the importance of having a wide variety of ways to score. I know people have posted videos that have touched on the awesome variety of ways Donovan can score. He scores in so many ways it's almost unbelievable. People have been comparing Mitchell to Wade with a jumpshot and it's crazy to watch him and think that yourself as a fan of his and wonder if you're crazy but then hear other people say they see the same thing. His ball handling, his instincts, his hesitations, his court awareness, his ability to use screens and blow by, variety of ways he finishes at the rim going off the wrong foot, variety of ways he creates space with these moves, his 3-pt shot that is at 35%, his FT's which are already top level, and the way he keeps adding to his toolbox. Teams have been gameplanning for Donovan and it's fun to see him struggle at first with that but then learn ways he can expose them. He's a student of the game too. He pays attention to what other players have done to improve and has a hunger to expand that toolbox. Then add the fact that he has good defensive skills and has a desire to play that side of the ball. He's shouldering a lot of the scoring responsibility but he puts in effort there. Donovan also enjoys having the ball down the stretch. He has good 4th quarter stats and likes to put the game away.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I can see the award going either way. Both Simmons and Mitchell are going to be elite level players. What BOTH of them are doing is historic and so much fun to watch. I won't be disappointed if it goes to Simmons, but it won't surprise me one bit if MItchell gets it for being the leading scorer as a rookie for a team that makes the playoffs...all when the league wrote them off after losing Hayward. It is huge that the Jazz have Mitchell and Gobert just as it's huge the Sixers have Embiid and Simmons. So fun!

This is a good post. And as a Jazz fan, I understand your strong support for Mitchell for ROY.

All that I would say in Simmons' defense in terms of his ability to score the ball at a level similar to Mitchell is - having watched him all season - I don't think there is much question that, if Simmons decided that he wanted to shoot 15-18 times a game and score the ball he could easily score 20 ppg. However, as the point guard, his primary job is to run the offense and make sure that EVERYBODY eats (as witnessed again last night by his THIRTEEN dimes). Mitchell's primary job is to score the ball, which he does at a remarkable level for a rookie...but IMO it is not like Simmons coundn't score the ball like that if he chose to do so. He simply has a different job - that's all. That is, of course, in addition to everything else he does - rebounding, blocks, steals, and elite defense. The fact that Simmons does all of this - while also learning on-the-job the nuances of being an NBA point guard - is so underappreciated IMO by those who discount what he has done relative to Mitchell. Being an NBA point guard is HARD - especially for a rookie - and arguably WAY more challenging than being a shooting guard, IMO.

Again - I do not expect someone who has not watched Simmons all season to know this - but when Ben wants to score the ball he can SCORE THE BALL...and he can do it in almost-as-spectacular, "WTF?" fashion as Mitchell does. I would LOVE to see a 2017-18 mixtape of Simmons' best plays - it would be really dope.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

Mitchell is not even in the same stratosphere as Simmons in terms of potential and skills. Every GM in the nba would pick simmons over mitchell and its not even close.

[bebopdeluxe]

Mitchell is not even in the same stratosphere as Simmons in terms of potential and skills. Every GM in the nba would pick simmons over mitchell and its not even close.

If the 28 GM's other than the Sixers or Jazz were asked who would they add to their team - Simmons or Mitchell - how many would choose Mitchell over Simmons?

I believe the answer to that question would be ZERO.

[Marcus]

I think there is a lot that is going into this becoming a close race for the ROTY. For each of the two main contenders, there are factors that are causing people following the race to fall for either player, and I won't be surprised if the award goes either way.

<>Ben Simmons is having an incredible rookie season. He has an incredibly developed body for such a young kid and he is clearly a great competitor. The fact the Sixers also have Embiid at such a young age and he's dominating is almost unfair, haha. They're clearly one of the favorites to contend for as long as these two are together and healthy.

Simmons has great instincts (offensively and defensively) and he has a lot of tools. I can absolutely see the Magic Johnson comparisons in style and ability. I do think that his lack of a jumpshot will become more of an issue in the playoffs. In the current league, where the 3-pt shot is critical, it is challenging when a guard doesn't have this ability and can't make up for it with ability to get to the line and make the free throws. Rotations are tightened and the game slows down some. Instead of teams coming off a game against another team they had a gameplan for and pivoting, they can make adjustments to expose the weakenesses of players they're facing again in a couple days.

Many of the basketball writers are talking about how teams will gameplan for Simmons due to his poor jumpshot and FT's. Simmons will still be a valuable player to his team due to his defense and playmaking but he will need to work on the ways he scores. As rotations get tightened and teams can gameplan for Simmons and his limitations, I think he'll have some struggles with scoring because of his allergy to the 3-pt shot and outside shot and poor FT's. Lucky for him he has a center that can score in so many ways and has an outside shot, but it means that it will be especially difficult in the playoffs for the team if Simmons is on the floor with any more than one player who doesn't have a 3-pt shot.

<>Donovan Mitchell's main strength is his scoring prowess (or as some have tried SO HARD to diminishingly describe it in this thread, his ability to get Pointzzzzz). The variety of ways he can score isn't some small thing. It's not like we're talking about Donovan Mitchell having the ability to jump high, or dunk, or a nice crossover. The current leader for the MVP should be a great reminder for the importance of having a wide variety of ways to score. I know people have posted videos that have touched on the awesome variety of ways Donovan can score. He scores in so many ways it's almost unbelievable. People have been comparing Mitchell to Wade with a jumpshot and it's crazy to watch him and think that yourself as a fan of his and wonder if you're crazy but then hear other people say they see the same thing. His ball handling, his instincts, his hesitations, his court awareness, his ability to use screens and blow by, variety of ways he finishes at the rim going off the wrong foot, variety of ways he creates space with these moves, his 3-pt shot that is at 35%, his FT's which are already top level, and the way he keeps adding to his toolbox. Teams have been gameplanning for Donovan and it's fun to see him struggle at first with that but then learn ways he can expose them. He's a student of the game too. He pays attention to what other players have done to improve and has a hunger to expand that toolbox. Then add the fact that he has good defensive skills and has a desire to play that side of the ball. He's shouldering a lot of the scoring responsibility but he puts in effort there. Donovan also enjoys having the ball down the stretch. He has good 4th quarter stats and likes to put the game away.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I can see the award going either way. Both Simmons and Mitchell are going to be elite level players. What BOTH of them are doing is historic and so much fun to watch. I won't be disappointed if it goes to Simmons, but it won't surprise me one bit if MItchell gets it for being the leading scorer as a rookie for a team that makes the playoffs...all when the league wrote them off after losing Hayward. It is huge that the Jazz have Mitchell and Gobert just as it's huge the Sixers have Embiid and Simmons. So fun!

This is a good post. And as a Jazz fan, I understand your strong support for Mitchell for ROY.

All that I would say in Simmons' defense in terms of his ability to score the ball at a level similar to Mitchell is - having watched him all season - I don't think there is much question that, if Simmons decided that he wanted to shoot 15-18 times a game and score the ball he could easily score 20 ppg. However, as the point guard, his primary job is to run the offense and make sure that EVERYBODY eats (as witnessed again last night by his THIRTEEN dimes). Mitchell's primary job is to score the ball, which he does at a remarkable level for a rookie...but IMO it is not like Simmons coundn't score the ball like that if he chose to do so. He simply has a different job - that's all. That is, of course, in addition to everything else he does - rebounding, blocks, steals, and elite defense. The fact that Simmons does all of this - while also learning on-the-job the nuances of being an NBA point guard - is so underappreciated IMO by those who discount what he has done relative to Mitchell. Being an NBA point guard is HARD - especially for a rookie - and arguably WAY more challenging than being a shooting guard, IMO.

Again - I do not expect someone who has not watched Simmons all season to know this - but when Ben wants to score the ball he can SCORE THE BALL...and he can do it in almost-as-spectacular, "WTF?" fashion as Mitchell does. I would LOVE to see a 2017-18 mixtape of Simmons' best plays - it would be really dope.

here's a little something and yes he did wrap that pass to JoJo around Noel.

Watch on YouTube

[Hipster Doofus]

Simmons is insane. The future is looking good for the 76ers. I haven't been this excited since the Iverson days. I don't know what we've done to deserve this. I gotta go make a sacrifice or something

[Kabookalu]

Even more than LeBron, Ben Simmons is the closest thing to Magic I've ever seen.

[JAYZGOAT]

Simmons is next level, and legit has a chance to be the best player in the NBA someday.

[3toheadmelo]

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