The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Winglish]

As we all know, Simmons is quite close to surpassing Kidd's total from that season, and the Sixers are experiencing a sizable jump in wins, while the Jazz have actually regressed in their win totals.

I think Simmons is the clear winner but using the Jazz's win total is a bit disingenuous considering the off season roster turnover and Gobert's injury plagued season.

Not disingenuous. Not mentioning it to detract from Mitchell, but simply as a contrast to what Kidd did to earn co-ROY honors. Question remains: what extraordinary thing has Mitchell done this season?

On pace to be the 1st rookie guard since MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN (S.A.S. voice) to average 20+ points per game while leading his team to the playoffs.

Surpassed Magic Johnson's all-time NBA record in becoming the first rookie in ALL OF NBA HISTORY to lead his team in scoring during an 11 game win streak.

First rookie since Blake Griffin in 2011 to have a 40 point game. (Also one of only seven active players in the NBA to have done that.)

More games of 20+ points than all but 5 rookies in the last 20 years.

So, yeah, Donovan Mitchell is doing some things!

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

[bebopdeluxe]

Mitchell has as many 20 point games this season as the next 2 rookies combined.

Mitchell - 33

Simmons and Kuzma - 33

It is this way of looking at things that is so freaking maddening.

Question: should the sole/primary determinate of who wins this award be POINTZ?

Question: should an analysis of a player's value and production take into account more than POINTZ?

Mitchell has had a great rookie season - scoring 20 ppg as a rookie is impressive.

However, when you look at the entire body of work - including team success - what Simmons is doing is simply on another level.

I have ZERO doubt that if Simmons wanted to be all about scoring, he could average 20 ppg. If you have watched the Sixers at all this season and were truly objective, you would agree with this. But that is not his gig - he is the point guard...to try to get POINTZ is not his job...right?

[dkj5061]

I think Simmons is the clear winner but using the Jazz's win total is a bit disingenuous considering the off season roster turnover and Gobert's injury plagued season.

Not disingenuous. Not mentioning it to detract from Mitchell, but simply as a contrast to what Kidd did to earn co-ROY honors. Question remains: what extraordinary thing has Mitchell done this season?

On pace to be the 1st rookie guard since MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN (S.A.S. voice) to average 20+ points per game while leading his team to the playoffs.

Surpassed Magic Johnson's all-time NBA record in becoming the first rookie in ALL OF NBA HISTORY to lead his team in scoring during an 11 game win streak.

First rookie since Blake Griffin in 2011 to have a 40 point game. (Also one of only seven active players in the NBA to have done that.)

More games of 20+ points than all but 5 rookies in the last 20 years.

So, yeah, Donovan Mitchell is doing some things!

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

The Jazz aren't on pace to make the playoffs though

[cl2117]

Not disingenuous. Not mentioning it to detract from Mitchell, but simply as a contrast to what Kidd did to earn co-ROY honors. Question remains: what extraordinary thing has Mitchell done this season?

On pace to be the 1st rookie guard since MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN (S.A.S. voice) to average 20+ points per game while leading his team to the playoffs.

Surpassed Magic Johnson's all-time NBA record in becoming the first rookie in ALL OF NBA HISTORY to lead his team in scoring during an 11 game win streak.

First rookie since Blake Griffin in 2011 to have a 40 point game. (Also one of only seven active players in the NBA to have done that.)

More games of 20+ points than all but 5 rookies in the last 20 years.

So, yeah, Donovan Mitchell is doing some things!

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

The Jazz aren't on pace to make the playoffs though

With their remaining schedule I'd give them the edge over LAC. I think they're neck and neck for the 8th seed with Denver.

[Alatan]

Not disingenuous. Not mentioning it to detract from Mitchell, but simply as a contrast to what Kidd did to earn co-ROY honors. Question remains: what extraordinary thing has Mitchell done this season?

On pace to be the 1st rookie guard since MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN (S.A.S. voice) to average 20+ points per game while leading his team to the playoffs.

Surpassed Magic Johnson's all-time NBA record in becoming the first rookie in ALL OF NBA HISTORY to lead his team in scoring during an 11 game win streak.

First rookie since Blake Griffin in 2011 to have a 40 point game. (Also one of only seven active players in the NBA to have done that.)

More games of 20+ points than all but 5 rookies in the last 20 years.

So, yeah, Donovan Mitchell is doing some things!

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

The Jazz aren't on pace to make the playoffs though

Check again.

[the_process]

http://bkref.com/tiny/3ywRe

I think Ben has the clear edge. But... if both teams make the playoffs I’d be fine if they shared the award.

[the_process]

On pace to be the 1st rookie guard since MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN (S.A.S. voice) to average 20+ points per game while leading his team to the playoffs.

Surpassed Magic Johnson's all-time NBA record in becoming the first rookie in ALL OF NBA HISTORY to lead his team in scoring during an 11 game win streak.

First rookie since Blake Griffin in 2011 to have a 40 point game. (Also one of only seven active players in the NBA to have done that.)

More games of 20+ points than all but 5 rookies in the last 20 years.

So, yeah, Donovan Mitchell is doing some things!

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

The Jazz aren't on pace to make the playoffs though

Check again.

Utah looks to finish with 43 wins... 2 ahead of the Clippers but 1 behind both Denver and OKC.

[shakes0]

Where's the Sacto fan hyping Bogdanovich today? Big o-fer 0 pts in 26 minutes.

[Alatan]

The Jazz aren't on pace to make the playoffs though

Check again.

Utah looks to finish with 43 wins... 2 ahead of the Clippers but 1 behind both Denver and OKC.

Utah has one of the easier schedules remaining while their competition has suffered injuries and chemistry problems.

[JellosJigglin]

Mitchell is not even in the same stratosphere as Simmons in terms of potential and skills. Every GM in the nba would pick simmons over mitchell and its not even close.

If the 28 GM's other than the Sixers or Jazz were asked who would they add to their team - Simmons or Mitchell - how many would choose Mitchell over Simmons?

I believe the answer to that question would be ZERO.

Well according to this article (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/3/5/17079390/draft-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-dangelo-russell-emmanuel-mudiay-stanley-johnson-justise-winslow) there are still GM's that prefer Ingram to Simmons. I'd take Mitchell over Ingram every day of the week so zero may be overstating it.

(Anyone got any ideas which GMs would be still be on Team Ingram? That's fair cause to be fired)

Ingram is 14 months younger than Simmons and a year younger than Mitchell. His development curve has been impressive. The article favors Simmons but I thought it was a fair analysis of strengths and weaknesses. A lot of the opinion is based on future projections and Ingram's growth as a shooter and playmaker. It's true that it's more difficult to build around a non-shooter. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the playoffs when teams have time to game plan and dare him to shoot.

[Winglish]

Not disingenuous. Not mentioning it to detract from Mitchell, but simply as a contrast to what Kidd did to earn co-ROY honors. Question remains: what extraordinary thing has Mitchell done this season?

On pace to be the 1st rookie guard since MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN (S.A.S. voice) to average 20+ points per game while leading his team to the playoffs.

Surpassed Magic Johnson's all-time NBA record in becoming the first rookie in ALL OF NBA HISTORY to lead his team in scoring during an 11 game win streak.

First rookie since Blake Griffin in 2011 to have a 40 point game. (Also one of only seven active players in the NBA to have done that.)

More games of 20+ points than all but 5 rookies in the last 20 years.

So, yeah, Donovan Mitchell is doing some things!

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

The Jazz aren't on pace to make the playoffs though

Incorrect. They are not in the playoffs today but every statistical model says they will be, barring injuries (knock on wood).

[Statlanta]

I hear so many fans talk about Isaac.

In this thread, or on this board? Nah...

Was looking forward to see what the fuss is all about.
I thought Isaac was going to be more like BAM but he is bad today.

5 fouls, 2 points, 2 rebs. Ouch!!

Can't be the defensive beast you're projected to be if the officials don't tolerate your hustle in hostile territory.

[dkj5061]

The Jazz aren't on pace to make the playoffs though

Incorrect. They are not in the playoffs today but every statistical model says they will be, barring injuries (knock on wood).

Okay, then they are projected to make playoffs. Based on their current winning % though, they are not on pace to. I used the term "on pace" for a reason.

[Kobblehead]

Mitchell is a worthy RotY in a down year. Not this year. Ben Simmons is on another level. A mid-volume scorer with elite defense and excellent distributing and rebounding is in a class of his own.

[Tomjas]

If the 28 GM's other than the Sixers or Jazz were asked who would they add to their team - Simmons or Mitchell - how many would choose Mitchell over Simmons?

I believe the answer to that question would be ZERO.

Well according to this article (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/3/5/17079390/draft-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-dangelo-russell-emmanuel-mudiay-stanley-johnson-justise-winslow) there are still GM's that prefer Ingram to Simmons. I'd take Mitchell over Ingram every day of the week so zero may be overstating it.

(Anyone got any ideas which GMs would be still be on Team Ingram? That's fair cause to be fired)

Ingram is 14 months younger than Simmons and a year younger than Mitchell. His development curve has been impressive. The article favors Simmons but I thought it was a fair analysis of strengths and weaknesses. A lot of the opinion is based on future projections and Ingram's growth as a shooter and playmaker. It's true that it's more difficult to build around a non-shooter. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the playoffs when teams have time to game plan and dare him to shoot.

They’ve been doing it all season and Simmons just drives to the rim

He’s too big for most guards to handle and too fast for the bigs

[Litany]

These guys (Nate Duncan and Danny Leroux) dove into discussion about awards. They both agree Simmons has the edge for ROY, but it isn't an easy pick.

Simmons fans constantly posting the same "THIS ESSSNTTT EVEN CLOSE WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU" should take the time to listen to this and remove the emotion and try to be objective. It isn't as clear cut as you want it to be.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2018/03/07/awards-through-february-mvp-all-nba-coy-roy-and-more

Next response from people who want to downplay it is "they only do this to create a narrative" sigh. At that point I can't help you if you want to reject everyone who wants to argue it's a real race.

[Stanford]

I listened. Still don't think it's close.

[deflated]

These guys (Nate Duncan and Danny Leroux) dove into discussion about awards. They both agree Simmons has the edge for ROY, but it isn't an easy pick.

Simmons fans constantly posting the same "THIS ESSSNTTT EVEN CLOSE WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU" should take the time to listen to this and remove the emotion and try to be objective. It isn't as clear cut as you want it to be.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2018/03/07/awards-through-february-mvp-all-nba-coy-roy-and-more

Next response from people who want to downplay it is "they only do this to create a narrative" sigh. At that point I can't help you if you want to reject everyone who wants to argue it's a real race.

Ugh. So one guy thinks Mitchell has been a better defender than Simmons but all of Simmons advantage in RPM is in defense? They feel Simmons' defence is helped by Embiid but Gobert isn't worthy of mention? They didn't realize how many blocks Simmons has?

That isn't creating a narrative, it's a fundamental lack of research.

[SmartWentCrazy]

These guys (Nate Duncan and Danny Leroux) dove into discussion about awards. They both agree Simmons has the edge for ROY, but it isn't an easy pick.

Simmons fans constantly posting the same "THIS ESSSNTTT EVEN CLOSE WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU" should take the time to listen to this and remove the emotion and try to be objective. It isn't as clear cut as you want it to be.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2018/03/07/awards-through-february-mvp-all-nba-coy-roy-and-more

Next response from people who want to downplay it is "they only do this to create a narrative" sigh. At that point I can't help you if you want to reject everyone who wants to argue it's a real race.

Ugh. So one guy thinks Mitchell has been a better defender than Simmons but all of Simmons advantage in RPM is in defense? They feel Simmons' defence is helped by Embiid but Gobert isn't worthy of mention? They didn't realize how many blocks Simmons has?

That isn't creating a narrative, it's a fundamental lack of research.

Im not offering any opinion on the race.

DRPM very likely includes height as a factor in determining its output [according to most attempts to recreate its results, at least]. Accordingly, it has the tendency to overstate the true impact of players who have outlier heights. Given that Simmons is a 6’10 PG in RPM, his DRPM is likely biased higher than his actual impact.

Hes still a very good defender— all im saying is that its likely that DRPM overstates his true impact.

[YouthMovement]

ben simmons smashing tinashe

clear winner