Phil Chenier's Jersey Retirement

[gravytrain24]

I'm in my 30's so I didn't see Phil play and youtube doesn't help as much. So I went on basketball reference to just check out that stats and while he was a 3 time all-star, all-nba one time and made the all-rookie team but his career stats, to me, don't scream retire the number. Does he deserve to get his number retired? Are there other Bullets/Wizards that should or may get their number retired?

[montestewart]

Chenier was their SG in their glory days--four Finals in the 70s--with him on three of those teams. Unseld was a virtual non-scoring option, and Chenier's scoring helped take pressure off Hayes. Injuries may have derailed his career, but he then became the Bullets/Wizards color analyst for thirty years.

Other than Unseld and Pollin, I can't think of anyone who better symbolizes the franchise. Few people quibble about Bill Bradley's retired jersey. Sometimes it's about more than the numbers. Sure, give him bonus points for service to the franchise, but retire the jersey.

[GhostofChenier]

Come tooooo the cereeeemonnnnyyy

[gravytrain24]

Chenier was their SG in their glory days--four Finals in the 70s--with him on three of those teams. Unseld was a virtual non-scoring option, and Chenier's scoring helped take pressure off Hayes. Injuries may have derailed his career, but he then became the Bullets/Wizards color analyst for thirty years.

Other than Unseld and Pollin, I can think of anyone who better symbolizes the franchise. Few people quibble about Bill Bradley's retired jersey. Sometimes it's about more than the numbers. Sure, give him bonus points for service to the franchise, but retire the jersey.

So, it sounds like its more of a lifetime achievement of service to the franchise then an actual statistical thing. It got me thinking about Gilbert, John. Are there numbers jerseys getting retired.

[montestewart]

Chenier was their SG in their glory days--four Finals in the 70s--with him on three of those teams. Unseld was a virtual non-scoring option, and Chenier's scoring helped take pressure off Hayes. Injuries may have derailed his career, but he then became the Bullets/Wizards color analyst for thirty years.

Other than Unseld and Pollin, I can think of anyone who better symbolizes the franchise. Few people quibble about Bill Bradley's retired jersey. Sometimes it's about more than the numbers. Sure, give him bonus points for service to the franchise, but retire the jersey.

So, it sounds like its more of a lifetime achievement of service to the franchise then an actual statistical thing. It got me thinking about Gilbert, John. Are there numbers jerseys getting retired.

Compare Chenier with Bill Bradley, some Celtics, and probably a few others in NBA history who have had their numbers retired partially for their association with franchise success and/or contributions during seminal/foundational periods of a franchise (remember, Chenier was the SG when the Bullets arrived in DC). These might not be numbers based, but they are also not merely "lifetime achievement" contributions.

Neither Wall nor Arenas are associated with that level of team success, and Arenas in particular is connected with one of the more infamous incidents in NBA history. Arenas was very exciting at his peak, and Wall might have a decent claim eventually, but the argument in favor of either of them would be much different than the argument in favor of retiring Chenier's jersey. More like the Earl Monroe argument.

[Ruzious]

Arenas and Wall will both make it. That's almost a sure thing. But this isn't about them. It's about Chenier and what he's meant to the franchise during and after his playing days. He wasn't a superstar, but of course he deserves this.

[80sballboy]

Phil was an outstanding player. I was very young at the time but I do remember trying to imitate his turnaround jumper and his form. He had a great stroke and all the back injuries hampered his overall production. This is not a great franchise (anymore) so obviously going back to celebrate Wes, Elvin and Phil is a good thing. Phil was no chump. Maybe he was slightly above a guy like Jeff Malone but sure Wall is a lock and Beal is on his way. No Arenas as long as Ted is running the team.

[Wizardspride]

I think the OP is downplaying Phil's abilities as a basketball player a bit.

I never saw him play but from talking to various people the consensus seems to be that he was one of the best shooting guards of his era.

Unfortunately, injuries eventually derailed his career.

[FAH1223]

Phil would have been a perennial 20 PPG scorer well into the 70s and early 80s if not for the back injuries. All the old heads I talk to say the same things about how good and smooth Phil was in his prime years.

[80sballboy]

It was such a different game back then. By the time the three-point shot came on, he was pretty much done as a player. That could have added a few more points to his average.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cheniph01.html

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Chenier was their SG in their glory days--four Finals in the 70s--with him on three of those teams. Unseld was a virtual non-scoring option, and Chenier's scoring helped take pressure off Hayes. Injuries may have derailed his career, but he then became the Bullets/Wizards color analyst for thirty years.

Other than Unseld and Pollin, I can think of anyone who better symbolizes the franchise. Few people quibble about Bill Bradley's retired jersey. Sometimes it's about more than the numbers. Sure, give him bonus points for service to the franchise, but retire the jersey.

So, it sounds like its more of a lifetime achievement of service to the franchise then an actual statistical thing. It got me thinking about Gilbert, John. Are there numbers jerseys getting retired.

Compare Chenier with Bill Bradley, some Celtics, and probably a few others in NBA history who have had their numbers retired partially for their association with franchise success and/or contributions during seminal/foundational periods of a franchise (remember, Chenier was the SG when the Bullets arrived in DC). These might not be numbers based, but they are also not merely "lifetime achievement" contributions.

Neither Wall nor Arenas are associated with that level of team success, and Arenas in particular is connected with one of the more infamous incidents in NBA history. Arenas was very exciting at his peak, and Wall might have a decent claim eventually, but the argument in favor of either of them would be much different than the argument in favor of retiring Chenier's jersey. More like the Earl Monroe argument.

Phil was an outstanding player. I was very young at the time but I do remember trying to imitate his turnaround jumper and his form. He had a great stroke and all the back injuries hampered his overall production. This is not a great franchise (anymore) so obviously going back to celebrate Wes, Elvin and Phil is a good thing. Phil was no chump. Maybe he was slightly above a guy like Jeff Malone but sure Wall is a lock and Beal is on his way. No Arenas as long as Ted is running the team.

These great posts made me wonder how and why did Washington's franchise achieve greatness?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/ferrybo01x.html

Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, and Phil Chenier each preceded Bob Ferry. The link above shows player and personnel moves by the most successful Bullets/Wizards GM. It certainly helps that Bob Ferry inherited two Hall of Fame players.

Ferry hired KC Jones, who took Washington to the Finals in 1975. Dick Motta eventually won one title and lost the next Finals.

Ferry had some pretty good moves up until about 1981; but by 1985 he was drafting the likes of Kenny Green.


If I had to compare players I would say that Phil Chenier and Jeff Malone were on a par with Bradley Beal. Three good scorers. Phil did his scoring with fluidity and quickness, like Lou Williams. Jeff Malone was a bulkier guy. Just as big as Beal but not jacked like Bradley. If any of the three played with great teammates they would be really good but not superstars.

[Ruzious]

And that was Kenny Green over Karl Malone. Depending on who you believe, some say Ferry very much wanted to pick Karl Malone, but the coach at the time (I think Gene Shue but maybe Motta?) wanted Green because he fit a perceived need rather than was the better player. And neither would bend, so they took it to Pollin - who decided on Green. Wow, is that ever a lesson to take the BPA?

I thought it was Ferry who made the great Elvin Hayes for Jack Marin trade.

[80sballboy]

And that was Kenny Green over Karl Malone. Depending on who you believe, some say Ferry very much wanted to pick Karl Malone, but the coach at the time (I think Gene Shue but maybe Motta?) wanted Green because he fit a perceived need rather than was the better player. And neither would bend, so they took it to Pollin - who decided on Green. Wow, is that ever a lesson to take the BPA?

I thought it was Ferry who made the great Elvin Hayes for Jack Marin trade.

Yeah, I think it was the late Ken Beatrice who floated that Gene Shue wanted Green over the Mailman and we know how that worked out. Beatrice as many know would "exaggerate" at times so who knows how true that was.

[80sballboy]

So, it sounds like its more of a lifetime achievement of service to the franchise then an actual statistical thing. It got me thinking about Gilbert, John. Are there numbers jerseys getting retired.

Compare Chenier with Bill Bradley, some Celtics, and probably a few others in NBA history who have had their numbers retired partially for their association with franchise success and/or contributions during seminal/foundational periods of a franchise (remember, Chenier was the SG when the Bullets arrived in DC). These might not be numbers based, but they are also not merely "lifetime achievement" contributions.

Neither Wall nor Arenas are associated with that level of team success, and Arenas in particular is connected with one of the more infamous incidents in NBA history. Arenas was very exciting at his peak, and Wall might have a decent claim eventually, but the argument in favor of either of them would be much different than the argument in favor of retiring Chenier's jersey. More like the Earl Monroe argument.

Phil was an outstanding player. I was very young at the time but I do remember trying to imitate his turnaround jumper and his form. He had a great stroke and all the back injuries hampered his overall production. This is not a great franchise (anymore) so obviously going back to celebrate Wes, Elvin and Phil is a good thing. Phil was no chump. Maybe he was slightly above a guy like Jeff Malone but sure Wall is a lock and Beal is on his way. No Arenas as long as Ted is running the team.

These great posts made me wonder how and why did Washington's franchise achieve greatness?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/ferrybo01x.html

Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, and Phil Chenier each preceded Bob Ferry. The link above shows player and personnel moves by the most successful Bullets/Wizards GM. It certainly helps that Bob Ferry inherited two Hall of Fame players.

Ferry hired KC Jones, who took Washington to the Finals in 1975. Dick Motta eventually one one title and lost the next Finals.

Ferry had some pretty good moves up until about 1981; but by 1985 he was drafting the likes of Kenny Green.


If I had to compare players I would say that Phil Chenier and Jeff Malone were on a par with Bradley Beal. Three good scorers. Phil did his scoring with fluidity and quickness, like Lou Williams. Jeff Malone was a bulkier guy. Just as big as Beal but not jacked like Bradley. If any of the three played with great teammates they would be really good but not superstars.

Adding Bobby Dandridge was the key for Ferry. That put them over the top with his defense and experience and then the Charles Johnson acquisition in (early 1978) sparked the bench. Chenier was quicker than Malone, who wasn't particularly athletic but was a very good shooter inside 3. Phil also played with Elvin, which meant he would never be the top option as the Big E was kind of a black hole on offense despite his greatness as a rebounder, defender, athletic big man, etc.

Those were the days and once those guys were gone, Ferry struggled with bad picks and just bad luck. Jeff Ruland was a great player before all the shoulder and knee issues. Frank Johnson was a pretty good point guard and then injuries crushed him. Same later with John "hot plate" Williams. Ferry just lost his fastball as a GM and we were toast. Still see him around town in Baltimore/Annapolis area.

[Ruzious]

And that was Kenny Green over Karl Malone. Depending on who you believe, some say Ferry very much wanted to pick Karl Malone, but the coach at the time (I think Gene Shue but maybe Motta?) wanted Green because he fit a perceived need rather than was the better player. And neither would bend, so they took it to Pollin - who decided on Green. Wow, is that ever a lesson to take the BPA?

I thought it was Ferry who made the great Elvin Hayes for Jack Marin trade.

Yeah, I think it was the late Ken Beatrice who floated that Gene Shue wanted Green over the Mailman and we know how that worked out. Beatrice as many know would "exaggerate" at times so who knows how true that was.

Exactly. I'd love it if Ferry would write a book about those days and what really happened behind the scenes - particularly with that pick. The most pissed off I was about one of his picks was when he picked Jeff Malone (the wrong Malone!) over Clyde Drexler. Jeff turned out to be a really good solid player for a bunch of years, but I knew nothing about him at the time, and I was going nuts about the idea of getting Drexler. Remember, Drexler was right before Jordan, and there wasn't a player anything like him at the time - not even close. People said he played too out of control and didn't have a jump shot... all these years, and it still bugs me.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Basketball Reference used to have a head-to-head games function.

Drexler vs Jordan was fairly even statistically. Clyde still belongs in the top-50 players IMO. He was a much better player than Jeff Malone.

[FAH1223]

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[Ruzious]

Thanks FAH. That was... awesome.

[FAH1223]

Thanks FAH. That was... awesome.

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[Ruzious]

Wow, how cool is that - Jabbar, Gervin, Dr J..., Austin Carr, and the measuring stick for Phil back in the day - Clyde Frazier. All of those guys were one of a kind.