Luka Doncic Part III

[peZt]

For an explanation how comparable are quality of NBA and European players, even those who never played in NBA. So is Dončić quality at 17, 18 years also comparable to NBA players.

We have Luka Dončić playing good against Euro-league and Euro championship competition in last 2 years. Particular in last year. In period where he was 17 or 18 years old.


I found just one game as an example. Here we have a nice roster of players at that time USA team. The data show us next facts:
- not one is older than 30 years
- not one is younger than 21 years (all of them was at least 3-4 years older than Luka was last year)
- one of them was that year 2. on MVP list for a regular season (LeBron)
- one of them was that year NBA finals MVP (Wade)
- there are at least 3 All Star players in that year (LeBron, Wade, Bosh)

So the roster was:
USA
- LeBron James
- D. Wade
- C. Bosh
- Carmelo Anthony
- Dwight Howard
- Chris Paul
- Joe Johnson
- Shane Battier
- Antawn Jamison
- Brad Miller
- Elton Brand and
- Kirk Hinrich

We have all heard for these players. We even know approximately at what year they were born. Even average European fan know that data.

They were playing a game against a Greece team. Average american NBA fan does not know not a year of birth, even a name of their opponents. They might have never heard of any of them. Not one.

Greece
Theodoros Papaloukas
Sofoklis Schortsanitis
Nikos Zisis
Vassilis Spanoulis
Panagiotis Vasilopoulos
Antonis Fotsis
Nikos Chatzivrettas
Dimos Dikoudis
Kostas Tsartsaris
Dimitris Diamantidis
Lazaros Papadopoulos
Michalis Kakiouzis

The game was on 1.9.2006.
Greece won. I am an European. In 2006, my two sons were 11 and 12 years old and playing basketball. No need to say they have already know everything about NBA players. They have even rooted for USA. They were under such massive "NBA.com-highlights-MVP-All Stars-finals" pressure. In some way their brain was washed by it. They were shocked. Boys could not believ what was happening. They literally cried when they look at their idols from NBA and see how hopeless were they on the floor.

1.9.2006 was a date when Stars were once again reminded that basketball is played everywhere on planet Earth. And being a NBA champion is not equal being a World champion.

Watch on YouTube

So what? A lot of favorites were beaten by underdogs in the knockout stages in sports history. Taking one game from 12 years ago out of context to prove a point is just beyond silly.

A more realistic comparison would be looking at the recent results, where the reality is that the US won the past 5 tournaments with an average point differential of 30. And they usually didn't even select their 12 best players.
Or how the US youth teams have won every single youth tournament of the last 8 years or so (except for the U19 upset loss last year) again with an average point differential of 30.

So yeah

[Bob8]

Since there is some interesting questions, against which legitimate NBA players has Doncic played (although trying to cover it with "in Euroleague"), I checked a bit his last summer NT games (preparation and Eurobasket) and here is the list of players, who in current season (2017/18) average more than 10 pts through whole season (so I left the one with lower averages):

points/rebounds/assist

Kristaps Porzingis..........22,6/6,6/1,2
Evan Fournier...............17,8/3,2/2,9
Marc Gasol .................17,7/8,5/4,1
Dario Saric..................15,0/6,9/2,7
Lauri Markkanen...........14,9/7,6/1,2
Bojan Bogdanovic..........14,2/3,4/1,5
Ricky Rubio..................12,3/4,5/5,4
Bogdan Bogdanovic........11,7/2,9/3,4
Pau Gasol...................10,6/8,3/3,3

Luka was basically better against majority of them in head to head situations on court.

Except he wasnt better than majority of them. His tournament stats were 14.3 8.1 3.6 on 41 31 85 shooting in 30 mpg. You make it out as Doncic was carrying Slovenia, but in fact it was Dragic.

1/2 finals against Spain. Highest Index, highest +/-, and almost triple double. The best player of the match. Rubio in his shadow.

http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/1409/Spain-Slovenia#%7Ctab=boxscore_statistics

1/4 finals against Latvia 27 points, 9 rebounds, highest index, best scorer of Slovenia

http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/1209/Slovenia-Latvia#%7Ctab=boxscore_statistics

He injured himself in Q3 in the finals.

against Greece, best index, best scorer

http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/0309/Slovenia-Greece#%7Ctab=boxscore_statistics

Yes Dragic was the best but I would say, he was pretty crucial for Slovenia too, don’t you think? Btw. how many Fiba tournaments has played Dragic, before this Eurobasket and how many medals has he won?

[daoneandonly]

WHich perimeter exports would you say translated well? There are good, solid guards absolutely. But I can't think of a superstar, franchise cornerstone at all

You keep hanging on that same argument, but we both know that other players have no actual impact of how good Doncic will be. Its the same argument people use about college schools - Oh, those Duke players busts all the time, so dont draft that other Duke player (example). Its just dumb. Doncic is not following anybodies footprints, he demolished every single achievement past teenage perimeter phenoms before him reached.

You're right on Duke, which is why I'd also be hesitant to draft Bagley and Carter, two guys rumored to be of interest for the Mavs. Its been proven they don't encessarily translate well, Laetnner never lived up to his hype, Jay WIlliams either but due to the accident. Grant Hill was on his way, injuries derailed him, but still did not deliver looking at the whole career. I'll use that same argument against Doncic as you eloquently put. History matters

[Nikson]

For an explanation how comparable are quality of NBA and European players, even those who never played in NBA. So is Dončić quality at 17, 18 years also comparable to NBA players.

We have Luka Dončić playing good against Euro-league and Euro championship competition in last 2 years. Particular in last year. In period where he was 17 or 18 years old.


I found just one game as an example. Here we have a nice roster of players at that time USA team. The data show us next facts:
- not one is older than 30 years
- not one is younger than 21 years (all of them was at least 3-4 years older than Luka was last year)
- one of them was that year 2. on MVP list for a regular season (LeBron)
- one of them was that year NBA finals MVP (Wade)
- there are at least 3 All Star players in that year (LeBron, Wade, Bosh)

So the roster was:
USA
- LeBron James
- D. Wade
- C. Bosh
- Carmelo Anthony
- Dwight Howard
- Chris Paul
- Joe Johnson
- Shane Battier
- Antawn Jamison
- Brad Miller
- Elton Brand and
- Kirk Hinrich

We have all heard for these players. We even know approximately at what year they were born. Even average European fan know that data.

They were playing a game against a Greece team. Average american NBA fan does not know not a year of birth, even a name of their opponents. They might have never heard of any of them. Not one.

Greece
Theodoros Papaloukas
Sofoklis Schortsanitis
Nikos Zisis
Vassilis Spanoulis
Panagiotis Vasilopoulos
Antonis Fotsis
Nikos Chatzivrettas
Dimos Dikoudis
Kostas Tsartsaris
Dimitris Diamantidis
Lazaros Papadopoulos
Michalis Kakiouzis

The game was on 1.9.2006.
Greece won. I am an European. In 2006, my two sons were 11 and 12 years old and playing basketball. No need to say they have already know everything about NBA players. They have even rooted for USA. They were under such massive "NBA.com-highlights-MVP-All Stars-finals" pressure. In some way their brain was washed by it. They were shocked. Boys could not believ what was happening. They literally cried when they look at their idols from NBA and see how hopeless were they on the floor.

1.9.2006 was a date when Stars were once again reminded that basketball is played everywhere on planet Earth. And being a NBA champion is not equal being a World champion.

Watch on YouTube

So what? A lot of favorites were beaten by underdogs in the knockout stages in sports history. Taking one game from 12 years ago out of context to prove a point is just beyond silly.

A more realistic comparison would be looking at the recent results, where the reality is that the US won the past 5 tournaments with an average point differential of 30. And they usually didn't even select their 12 best players.
Or how the US youth teams have won every single youth tournament of the last 8 years or so (except for the U19 upset loss last year) again with an average point differential of 30.

So yeah

Depends on what my point was.
It was absolutely nothing against various USA team’s performance.
I think NBA is the best basketball competition with best players.
I think Dončić is a special player as he at 18 compete so well against similar competition even LeBron and company at their 22-30 yearsof age didn’t. Nothing less and nothing more.

[UcanUwill]

WHich perimeter exports would you say translated well? There are good, solid guards absolutely. But I can't think of a superstar, franchise cornerstone at all

You keep hanging on that same argument, but we both know that other players have no actual impact of how good Doncic will be. Its the same argument people use about college schools - Oh, those Duke players busts all the time, so dont draft that other Duke player (example). Its just dumb. Doncic is not following anybodies footprints, he demolished every single achievement past teenage perimeter phenoms before him reached.

You're right on Duke, which is why I'd also be hesitant to draft Bagley and Carter, two guys rumored to be of interest for the Mavs. Its been proven they don't encessarily translate well, Laetnner never lived up to his hype, Jay WIlliams either but due to the accident. Grant Hill was on his way, injuries derailed him, but still did not deliver looking at the whole career. I'll use that same argument against Doncic as you eloquently put. History matters

Well, I dont know what to say to you then. 20 Years ago there weren't many good international bigmen players in the league at all, so by your logic, you would have rather drafted Robert Traylor instead of Dirk.

[Bob8]

WHich perimeter exports would you say translated well? There are good, solid guards absolutely. But I can't think of a superstar, franchise cornerstone at all

You keep hanging on that same argument, but we both know that other players have no actual impact of how good Doncic will be. Its the same argument people use about college schools - Oh, those Duke players busts all the time, so dont draft that other Duke player (example). Its just dumb. Doncic is not following anybodies footprints, he demolished every single achievement past teenage perimeter phenoms before him reached.

You're right on Duke, which is why I'd also be hesitant to draft Bagley and Carter, two guys rumored to be of interest for the Mavs. Its been proven they don't encessarily translate well, Laetnner never lived up to his hype, Jay WIlliams either but due to the accident. Grant Hill was on his way, injuries derailed him, but still did not deliver looking at the whole career. I'll use that same argument against Doncic as you eloquently put. History matters

what’s your problem anyway? Mavs will draft around 6-10. You won’t see Doncic not even in your dreams. Take MPJ, Bamba or Young and be happy.

[Nikson]

You keep hanging on that same argument, but we both know that other players have no actual impact of how good Doncic will be. Its the same argument people use about college schools - Oh, those Duke players busts all the time, so dont draft that other Duke player (example). Its just dumb. Doncic is not following anybodies footprints, he demolished every single achievement past teenage perimeter phenoms before him reached.

You're right on Duke, which is why I'd also be hesitant to draft Bagley and Carter, two guys rumored to be of interest for the Mavs. Its been proven they don't encessarily translate well, Laetnner never lived up to his hype, Jay WIlliams either but due to the accident. Grant Hill was on his way, injuries derailed him, but still did not deliver looking at the whole career. I'll use that same argument against Doncic as you eloquently put. History matters

Well, I dont know what to say to you then. 20 Years ago there weren't many good international bigmen players in the league at all, so by your logic, you would have rather drafted Robert Traylor instead of Dirk.

That one was nasty.

[Rn5ho]

Guys, stop feeding the troll.. seriously. This topic is getting ridiculous again. He believes NCAA > Euroleague, that's enough of a sign that there's no point discussing as beliefs on each side are so far apart, it's like trying to convince Trump that wall makes no sense.

[Nikson]

You keep hanging on that same argument, but we both know that other players have no actual impact of how good Doncic will be. Its the same argument people use about college schools - Oh, those Duke players busts all the time, so dont draft that other Duke player (example). Its just dumb. Doncic is not following anybodies footprints, he demolished every single achievement past teenage perimeter phenoms before him reached.

You're right on Duke, which is why I'd also be hesitant to draft Bagley and Carter, two guys rumored to be of interest for the Mavs. Its been proven they don't encessarily translate well, Laetnner never lived up to his hype, Jay WIlliams either but due to the accident. Grant Hill was on his way, injuries derailed him, but still did not deliver looking at the whole career. I'll use that same argument against Doncic as you eloquently put. History matters

what’s your problem anyway? Mavs will draft around 6-10. You won’t see Doncic not even in your dreams. Take MPJ, Bamba or Young and be happy.

Uff, these are raining now.

[Nikson]

Mea culpa Rasho. I apologize.

[daoneandonly]

You're right on Duke, which is why I'd also be hesitant to draft Bagley and Carter, two guys rumored to be of interest for the Mavs. Its been proven they don't encessarily translate well, Laetnner never lived up to his hype, Jay WIlliams either but due to the accident. Grant Hill was on his way, injuries derailed him, but still did not deliver looking at the whole career. I'll use that same argument against Doncic as you eloquently put. History matters

what’s your problem anyway? Mavs will draft around 6-10. You won’t see Doncic not even in your dreams. Take MPJ, Bamba or Young and be happy.

Uff, these are raining now.

MPJ if healthy and Bamba will be much better than Doncic, today/tomorrow alone they'll be playing better players than Doncic played the last 3 months.

[Rn5ho]

what’s your problem anyway? Mavs will draft around 6-10. You won’t see Doncic not even in your dreams. Take MPJ, Bamba or Young and be happy.

Uff, these are raining now.

MPJ if healthy and Bamba will be much better than Doncic, today/tomorrow alone they'll be playing better players than Doncic played the last 3 months.

PLEASE IGNORE HIM. THIS IS LEGIT STRAIGHT UP TROLLING. If you guys continue responding to this BS, we'll have another 5 pages of the same BS that we had in last 5.

[Nikson]

You should get a warning.

[daoneandonly]

You keep hanging on that same argument, but we both know that other players have no actual impact of how good Doncic will be. Its the same argument people use about college schools - Oh, those Duke players busts all the time, so dont draft that other Duke player (example). Its just dumb. Doncic is not following anybodies footprints, he demolished every single achievement past teenage perimeter phenoms before him reached.

You're right on Duke, which is why I'd also be hesitant to draft Bagley and Carter, two guys rumored to be of interest for the Mavs. Its been proven they don't encessarily translate well, Laetnner never lived up to his hype, Jay WIlliams either but due to the accident. Grant Hill was on his way, injuries derailed him, but still did not deliver looking at the whole career. I'll use that same argument against Doncic as you eloquently put. History matters

Well, I dont know what to say to you then. 20 Years ago there weren't many good international bigmen players in the league at all, so by your logic, you would have rather drafted Robert Traylor instead of Dirk.

And how many bigs crashed and burned before Dirk with top picks? Was there a Rubio? An Exum? A Hezonja? Total bums taken with top 5 picks.

[UcanUwill]

You're right on Duke, which is why I'd also be hesitant to draft Bagley and Carter, two guys rumored to be of interest for the Mavs. Its been proven they don't encessarily translate well, Laetnner never lived up to his hype, Jay WIlliams either but due to the accident. Grant Hill was on his way, injuries derailed him, but still did not deliver looking at the whole career. I'll use that same argument against Doncic as you eloquently put. History matters

Well, I dont know what to say to you then. 20 Years ago there weren't many good international bigmen players in the league at all, so by your logic, you would have rather drafted Robert Traylor instead of Dirk.

And how many bigs crashed and burned before Dirk with top picks? Was there a Rubio? An Exum? A Hezonja? Total bums taken with top 5 picks.

What has those players have to do with Doncic? At least Rubio and Hezonja played in Spain, Exum was literally from other side of the world... You just connecting 2 completely unrelated prospects because they both are international from your relative point of view. From Spanish view point, USA is foreign and unexplored, so they can compare college stars to Exum, and they make just as much sense as you. First, you stuck in the past, non progressive and stereotypic, and secondly, you dont even make sense with your comparisons.

[Nikson]

Well, I dont know what to say to you then. 20 Years ago there weren't many good international bigmen players in the league at all, so by your logic, you would have rather drafted Robert Traylor instead of Dirk.

And how many bigs crashed and burned before Dirk with top picks? Was there a Rubio? An Exum? A Hezonja? Total bums taken with top 5 picks.

What has those players have to do with Doncic? At least Rubio and Hezonja played in Spain, Exum was literally from other side of the world... You just connecting 2 completely unrelated prospects because they both are international from your relative point of view. From Spanish view point, USA is foreign and unexplored, so they can compare college stars to Exum, and they make just as much sense as you. First, you stuck in the past, non progressive and stereotypic, and secondly, you dont even make sense with your comparisons.

He is probably a nice and ok guy it’s just his opinions are not smart. Noone should judge him because of that.

[daoneandonly]

Well, I dont know what to say to you then. 20 Years ago there weren't many good international bigmen players in the league at all, so by your logic, you would have rather drafted Robert Traylor instead of Dirk.

And how many bigs crashed and burned before Dirk with top picks? Was there a Rubio? An Exum? A Hezonja? Total bums taken with top 5 picks.

What has those players have to do with Doncic? At least Rubio and Hezonja played in Spain, Exum was literally from other side of the world... You just connecting 2 completely unrelated prospects because they both are international from your relative point of view. From Spanish view point, USA is foreign and unexplored, so they can compare college stars to Exum, and they make just as much sense as you. First, you stuck in the past, non progressive and stereotypic, and secondly, you dont even make sense with your comparisons.

Actually you're the one who was arguing with Mirotic about how lesser Euroleague is, yet somehow Doncic is a superstar stud even though he plays in a lesser league, that's nonsensical.

And okay, you believe Donic will be on the level of Dirk with respect to how successful he'll be in the NBA, I've said he'll be more Turkaglu/Ingles, we can leave it at that. We'll see in 3 years who's closer in their projection.

[UcanUwill]

And how many bigs crashed and burned before Dirk with top picks? Was there a Rubio? An Exum? A Hezonja? Total bums taken with top 5 picks.

What has those players have to do with Doncic? At least Rubio and Hezonja played in Spain, Exum was literally from other side of the world... You just connecting 2 completely unrelated prospects because they both are international from your relative point of view. From Spanish view point, USA is foreign and unexplored, so they can compare college stars to Exum, and they make just as much sense as you. First, you stuck in the past, non progressive and stereotypic, and secondly, you dont even make sense with your comparisons.

Actually you're the one who was arguing with Mirotic about how lesser Euroleague is, yet somehow Doncic is a superstar stud even though he plays in a lesser league, that's nonsensical.

And okay, you believe Donic will be on the level of Dirk with respect to how successful he'll be in the NBA, I've said he'll be more Turkaglu/Ingles, we can leave it at that. We'll see in 3 years who's closer in their projection.

No, I feel like I am stuck in the middle and debating too polarized radical sides. Once side that thinks Doncic is already NBA caliber star and that Euroleague is from the heavens (just in Mirotic case), and other side that thinks Doncic is no good at all, because Euro competition and their prospects completely sucks.

Ignorance is a big bug bear of mine, and when I see someone being ignorant, its hard for me not to respond. I feel like you being very ignorant on International basketball, even beside Doncic.
Euroleague is far worse than the NBA, but far better than college, thats what I stand for.

[daoneandonly]

What has those players have to do with Doncic? At least Rubio and Hezonja played in Spain, Exum was literally from other side of the world... You just connecting 2 completely unrelated prospects because they both are international from your relative point of view. From Spanish view point, USA is foreign and unexplored, so they can compare college stars to Exum, and they make just as much sense as you. First, you stuck in the past, non progressive and stereotypic, and secondly, you dont even make sense with your comparisons.

Actually you're the one who was arguing with Mirotic about how lesser Euroleague is, yet somehow Doncic is a superstar stud even though he plays in a lesser league, that's nonsensical.

And okay, you believe Donic will be on the level of Dirk with respect to how successful he'll be in the NBA, I've said he'll be more Turkaglu/Ingles, we can leave it at that. We'll see in 3 years who's closer in their projection.

No, I feel like I am stuck in the middle and debating too polarized radical sides. Once side that thinks Doncic is already NBA caliber star and that Euroleague is from the heavens (just in Mirotic case), and other side that thinks Doncic is no good at all, because Euro competition and their prospects completely sucks.

Ignorance is a big bug bear of mine, and when I see someone being ignorant, its hard for me not to respond. I feel like you being very ignorant on International basketball, even beside Doncic.
Euroleague is far worse than the NBA, but far better than college, thats what I stand for.

I never said he was going to suck, I said it's way riskier taking him in the top 5 than a guy from the NCAA. There's an old, wise saying, "if you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it", GMs should learn from the T'Wolves mistake, from the Jazz's mistake, and from the Magic's mistake. Doesn't matter if their games are similar or not to Doncic, they played in leagues that are not NBA level and their games never translated as those scouts/GMs were banking on. When there are guys like Ayton, JJJ, Bamba, and if MPJ is healthy, you take those guys over DOncic without blinking unless you have a plethora of bigs already. Notice I did not say Bagley or Carter, cause as you pointed out, history suggests the same for Duke. That's not racist or ignorant, that's using history as evidence to make decisions. When Coach K leaves, perhaps the Duke tale will change.

[Nikson]

Actually you're the one who was arguing with Mirotic about how lesser Euroleague is, yet somehow Doncic is a superstar stud even though he plays in a lesser league, that's nonsensical.

And okay, you believe Donic will be on the level of Dirk with respect to how successful he'll be in the NBA, I've said he'll be more Turkaglu/Ingles, we can leave it at that. We'll see in 3 years who's closer in their projection.

No, I feel like I am stuck in the middle and debating too polarized radical sides. Once side that thinks Doncic is already NBA caliber star and that Euroleague is from the heavens (just in Mirotic case), and other side that thinks Doncic is no good at all, because Euro competition and their prospects completely sucks.

Ignorance is a big bug bear of mine, and when I see someone being ignorant, its hard for me not to respond. I feel like you being very ignorant on International basketball, even beside Doncic.
Euroleague is far worse than the NBA, but far better than college, thats what I stand for.

I never said he was going to suck, I said it's way riskier taking him in the top 5 than a guy from the NCAA. There's an old, wise saying, "if you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it", GMs should learn from the T'Wolves mistake, from the Jazz's mistake, and from the Magic's mistake. Doesn't matter if their games are similar or not to Doncic, they played in leagues that are not NBA level and their games never translated as those scouts/GMs were banking on. When there are guys like Ayton, JJJ, Bamba, and if MPJ is healthy, you take those guys over DOncic without blinking unless you have a plethora of bigs already. Notice I did not say Bagley or Carter, cause as you pointed out, history suggests the same for Duke. That's not racist or ignorant, that's using history as evidence to make decisions. When Coach K leaves, perhaps the Duke tale will change.

Let us take Rubio. Did they take him for his hype or his stats?
If they take him because of hype and ignoring stats that was not a smart decision?


But business in NBA and marketing campaign around draft prospects work in a way they produce and hype every year a few guys. If they have stats on level 4 or if they have stats on level 10. Just 5 best prospects. One year they are 4-6 another they are 4-9. They are building a project. They have to make 3-6 project so they can sell arenas, shorts and so on.

But if than come some prospect with a good stats that is something different.