CobraCommander wrote:payitforward wrote:CobraCommander wrote:Good point...why do i even communicate when someone says something like that!
Just as a matter of interest, do you have any idea what Jeff Teague's numbers were last year?
You don't, do you? & that's because, I assume, numbers don't matter. How good a guy's numbers were in a season have nothing to do with how good a season he has -- isn't that right?
Except in John's case, of course, right? His numbers last year were the best of his career, so he had a great year. Not Jeff Teague, however -- no matter what his numbers were.
Does that about sum up your ability to analyze a guy's play? As in "John good; other guy not John so not good." That about it?
You are right i didnt know Jeff’s numbers off the top of my head but damnit...I got the interwebs at my disposal and wah lah...
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4015/jeff-teagueI didnt follow Jeff last year because im not invested in the hawks. I know he lost his job to a younger point guard with more upside because of ability and I think “attitude” (but his attitude could be a issue of the team marginalizing him and him responding to that marginalized role and feeling ‘disrespected’ like anyone would considering he is still in the prime of his career. I watched Wall play Teague when their team was better than the Wiz and Wall was the best player on the floor in the playoffs. I dont think Teague is bad but I dont think ANYONE thinks he is in the same world as Wall. Or ever has been. GMs, coaches and other players have ranked the point guards in various different forums from ESPN ranking, SportsNews, RealGMs polls, Allstar votes, AllNBA votes (not fan related), NBA live, other players vocalizing their top point guards, NBA draft and no one by Jeff Teagues mom (maybe his brother) would take Jeff over John...well and you. But hey...Jeffs 15 and 7 was better than Johns 23 and 11 last year...but hey...I’m sure there is some number some where that makes Jeff better than John... I dont know John personally and I just want the team to be fun to watch and WIN SOMETIMES because it makes the dark days brighter. I even enjoy the trolling and conversation that the broad brings me...I will tell you as someone who travels every week all over the world...but mostly in the states...no one outside of DC or hardened sports fans or ESPN pundits...seem to understand why people are down on JW. I was in Portland and people were like they would trade our back court for theirs because they see ALL the FLAWS in Dame and CJ...but they think John is better both ways than all 3 of the other guys. I may not agree with that ...but the point is, its just odd how little respect and love john gets on the wiz board and ESPN compared to the rest of the world. I guess it may be the detailed analytics that tell us that he isnt as good as advertised...the same analytics would say Otto is better than John...when the eye test says something different that makes the board hate john...but either way.im a wiz fan and ‘not any one player over the wiz’ fan...so i ride and die with MOST of the players on the squad...so I’m home town bias. But i wish you no il-will or venom from my post...i just think you are wrong...but I’m sure you have some justification for your Jeff Teague was better than John last year statement...what is it?
Well, lets just start w/ the fact that Jeff Teague wasn't with the Hawks last year, Cobra. Sheesh....
Moreover, as I've said no more than one hundred #$@king times, I don't discuss good players on the basis of who is "the better player" -- as if there existed some abstract thing called "goodness" & one guy had more of it than the other. What I said -- & let me repeat it -- was that last year, Jeff Teague had a better year than John Wall. It was John's best year, & Teague's numbers were better.
Get to that in a minute. The fact that one or another pundit rates one or another player as great or whatever means absolutely nothing to me. Do you remember me writing her over and over that Paul George was & is an over-rated player? Have you noticed that Indiana is not worse without him but rather they are better? Do you recollect me saying that Cousins was way over-rated? Have you noticed how NO is faring w/o him?
Now, those numbers. You ask how 15 (points) & 7 (assists) can be better than 23 & 11. Respectfully, that question doesn't indicate much depth of analysis. Lets look at the players' numbers per 48 minutes (wch I have handier than per 40 or per 36 -- don't want to depend on my math to convert them this late in the evening)
Points:
Per 48 minutes, John scored 30.6 points to Teague's 22.7 points. Lets start by agreeing that in principle scoring more points is better than scoring fewer points. John is substantially ahead here.
Rebounding:
They're essentially even. Teague slightly outrebounded Wall, but Wall got a little more on the offensive end -- & regression analysis shows that offensive rebounds are a bit more valuable than defensive rebounds. So... even.
Assists:
Per 48 minutes, John dished out 14 assists; Teague had 11.5 -- so far, your intuition that John had the better season looks good.
Steals:
Again, John leads. He's running away with this thing! Per 48 minutes, he had 2.7 steals, while Teague only had 1.8
Blocks:
Oh man... I'm starting to sweat. John had .2 more blocked shots per 48 minutes.
Fouls:
Worse & worse for Teague -- he committed .4 more fouls per 48
Turnovers:
Jeff Teague turned it over 3.9 times per 48 minutes. John Wall turned it over 5.5 times.
That's a big difference. It wipes out the advantage in steals (obviously), renders the slight advantage John had in blocks/fouls irrelevant & contributes to cutting into the advantage of those 2.5 extra assists John got. But, not all the way. On everything but scoring so far, Wall is .85 ahead, & John still has the 7.9 extra points he scored. So, overall, an 8.75 lead
But, points come at the cost of shots, & shots aren't free. You don't get as many shots as you like. Your team only gets so many. That's why it's not just points scored that counts, it's how many shots & FTs you need to score those points. & here is where John's lead goes away.
To get his 7.9 more points than Jeff, John needed to shoot the ball 7.9 more times than Jeff. There goes his advantage over Teague in scoring. Worse, however, he also needed to take 1.4 more FTAs. That takes care of the rest of his advantage over Jeff.
In the end, the two guys had almost exactly the same positive net last season. You could call it slightly for Teague as I did, but really it's awfully close even if I do call it that way -- so, you know what, I'm going to take it back. Rather than say Jeff Teague had a better season last year than John Wall, I'll say he had just as good a season as John Wall.
Fair enough?
But what you don't want to do is repeat that comparison except substitute Harden, Paul, Westbrook, Curry, Conley, IT, or Lowry for Teague. Wall & IT are close, though IT had a bit better season. John wasn't anywhere near as good as the other 5 guys last year.
(You notice, btw, that I didn't have Kyrie Irving on the list of guys who had better years than John in 2016-17. Maybe you'd put him there? He did score more points than John. But, overall, Wall was significantly better than Kyrie last year. Like I say, points aren't everything!)
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