The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

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Who wins? (May select 2 options.)

Simmons
361
38%
Ball
35
4%
Kuzma
39
4%
Tatum
103
11%
Markkanen
78
8%
Smith Jr
7
1%
Fox
5
1%
Mitchell
280
30%
Anunoby
18
2%
Other
14
1%
 
Total votes: 940

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Re: RE: Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1921 » by Winglish » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:40 am

Lattimer wrote:Found this interesting. Rudy Gobert is leading the league in Defensive Win Shares (not surprising), but Donovan Mitchell is sitting in 8th place and Ben Simmons is at 12th :D .

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1

What is Defensive Win Shares - DWS?
A metric that estimates the number of wins a player produces for his team due to his defensive ability. This number is generally calculated using full-season statistics.


Annnnd Donovan has a Defensive Rating of 101.6 and Ben Simmons has a rating of 102.9 (Lower number is better of course, for example, Gobert is at 97.0) :)

:rockon:
But guys who don't know basketball will continue to try to assert that Donovan Mitchell is not a good defender.

The guy was drafted based on his ability to defend the perimeter. He was by and large considered one of the best, if not the best, perimeter defender in college basketball.

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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1922 » by PLO » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:50 am

If Ben Simmons was Peter Dinklage's size I'm not sure he'd be as good at basketball tbh.
LakersDynasty14 wrote:Lonzo Ball is literally on a Hall of Fame trajectory at this point. This thread is so full of fail.


shakes0 wrote:I hope they put Simmons on Trae. He'll foul him out by the 3rd quarter. plus Simmons can't stay in front of Trae. No one can.
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Re: RE: Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1923 » by HotelVitale » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:51 am

Winglish wrote:
Lattimer wrote:Found this interesting. Rudy Gobert is leading the league in Defensive Win Shares (not surprising), but Donovan Mitchell is sitting in 8th place and Ben Simmons is at 12th :D . https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1
What is Defensive Win Shares - DWS? A metric that estimates the number of wins a player produces for his team due to his defensive ability. This number is generally calculated using full-season statistics.
Annnnd Donovan has a Defensive Rating of 101.6 and Ben Simmons has a rating of 102.9 (Lower number is better of course, for example, Gobert is at 97.0) :)
But guys who don't know basketball will continue to try to assert that Donovan Mitchell is not a good defender. The guy was drafted based on his ability to defend the perimeter. He was by and large considered one of the best, if not the best, perimeter defender in college basketball.

Mitchell is awesome and I'm jealous you all have him, but DRTG is notoriously stupid and DWS is the same thing (it's calculated by dividing DRTG among team wins). It definitely does not accurately capture how many 'wins' a player adds with his defense; all it's going to tell you is that the player plays on a team that's pretty good at defense.
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1924 » by Stonk » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:00 am

MItchell is amazing, but comparing his defense to simmons is stupid.

Simmons is almost elite already. would not be surprised if he made all-defense
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1925 » by downtownpie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:03 am

Simmons leads the NBA for assists in March averaging 10.6.
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Re: RE: Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1926 » by Winglish » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:14 am

downtownpie wrote:Simmons leads the NBA for assists in March averaging 10.6.
That's awesome. I'm impressed! Not many NBA guys get over 10 a game anymore.

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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1927 » by LordCovington33 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:19 am

Stonk wrote:MItchell is amazing, but comparing his defense to simmons is stupid.

Simmons is almost elite already. would not be surprised if he made all-defense

They don't give major awards to rookies.
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Re: RE: Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1928 » by phifans » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:32 am

Winglish wrote:
downtownpie wrote:Simmons leads the NBA for assists in March averaging 10.6.
That's awesome. I'm impressed! Not many NBA guys get over 10 a game anymore.

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So you have difficulties to figure out the difference between "average " and "one game" ?
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1929 » by FinNasty » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:39 am

FinNasty wrote:
Read on Twitter


Blah blah blah Simmons... blah blah blah Mitchell.

Bam eats your soul...
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1930 » by Moonbeam » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:25 am

Good to see Simmons dominating again. I think this race is his to lose at this stage, though Mitchell is my favorite rookie and would be a worthy winner of any ROY race of the past 5 years at least.
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1931 » by Tomjas » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:34 am

It's pretty pointless to compare the play of Mitchell and Simmons as they impact the game in altogether different ways

Anyway, I'm a sixers fan but have no problem with Mitchell winning ROTY as his success has been far less expected than Ben's
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1932 » by Winglish » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:35 am

phifans wrote:
Winglish wrote:
downtownpie wrote:Simmons leads the NBA for assists in March averaging 10.6.
That's awesome. I'm impressed! Not many NBA guys get over 10 a game anymore.

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So you have difficulties to figure out the difference between "average " and "one game" ?
WTF man? Why the hate? I gave the guy a compliment.



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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1933 » by Winglish » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:37 am

Most 25 point games by a rookie in the last 20 years:

1. Carmelo Anthony (30)

2. Blake Griffin (28)

3. Lebron James (24)

4. Donovan Mitchell (23 and counting)

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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1934 » by QPR » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:56 am

Winglish wrote:Most 25 point games by a rookie in the last 20 years:

1. Carmelo Anthony (30)

2. Blake Griffin (28)

3. Lebron James (24)

4. Donovan Mitchell (23 and counting)

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You can probably stop posting random stats now, he's definitely got second place sewn up.
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1935 » by bebopdeluxe » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:00 am

Fifteen assists. ZERO turnovers.
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1936 » by Dundalis » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:57 am

Alatan wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
Alatan wrote:Anyone else think that Mitchell is a more versatile player than Simmons?

Simmons does do a lot of things well but i think Mitchell does more.
Mitchell is a good shooter, ball handler, finisher, athlete, man defender, team defender, off ball player, isolation player, shot creator and has impressed me with his play making ability recently.

The guy does everything good. He quickly became my favorite player. He makes a rookie mistake from time to time but once he tightens up his game he will be one of the best players in this league.


No.

You mention a number of things that Mitchell is good at, the only problem with your argument being that Simmons is better. It's a given that Mitchell is the better shooter, but Simmons would be ahead in most of the other qualities that you mentioned.


Well that doesnt prove my argument wrong at all. Even if Simmons was better at most things and he is not.
Being more versatile means that you have more skills at an average or above average level not that you are better at more skills.

That being said i dont think that Simmons is better than Mitchell at many things. Simmons is currently a better defender due to size, a better rebounder again due to size and a better passer but i think Mitchell is quickly developing that aspect of his game. Mitchell, on the other hand is a better scorer and off ball player. It would look like a tie but Mitchell is a good defender and looks like a good passer where Simmons is not good without the ball and is not a good scorer. So even the argument that Simmons is better at more things is invalid.

Simmons currently fills the stat sheet better than Mitchell but i dont think that he is a better player. His rebounds are easily replaceable, his assists are inflated by him being the dominant ball handler and his efficiency is bolstered by the fact that he is not the primary or even secondary scoring option. Again not saying Simmons is not good, he is a legit allstar level player, but i think Mitchell is better.

Lot's of garbage in this post. Simmons is a better rebounder and passer by a significant margin, but Mitchell being a better scorer (by not near as significant a margin), and off the ball player (thinking this is in any way equivalent to key basketball skills like passing and rebounding is funny), makes him better.

Not to mention the Simmons is a better defender due to size comment. Simmons is primarily a perimeter defender who can guard almost anyone. He can guard PG's effectively at 6'10. That's not due to size. Or else teams wouldn't hesitate using their 6'10 centers to guard PG's. Simmons is a better rebounder partly due to size (plenty of smaller guards have been great rebounders). His size advantage isn't going away any time soon. You say it as though these are things Mitchell can overcome. He's not going to end up 6'10 by putting work in the gym. Simmons ability to guard 1-5 in many situations is an incredible weapon for a team to have.

Just say you like Mitchell better and leave it at that, because using stats to back up your opinion doesn't work.
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1937 » by bebopdeluxe » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:14 am

Dundalis wrote:
Alatan wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
No.

You mention a number of things that Mitchell is good at, the only problem with your argument being that Simmons is better. It's a given that Mitchell is the better shooter, but Simmons would be ahead in most of the other qualities that you mentioned.


Well that doesnt prove my argument wrong at all. Even if Simmons was better at most things and he is not.
Being more versatile means that you have more skills at an average or above average level not that you are better at more skills.

That being said i dont think that Simmons is better than Mitchell at many things. Simmons is currently a better defender due to size, a better rebounder again due to size and a better passer but i think Mitchell is quickly developing that aspect of his game. Mitchell, on the other hand is a better scorer and off ball player. It would look like a tie but Mitchell is a good defender and looks like a good passer where Simmons is not good without the ball and is not a good scorer. So even the argument that Simmons is better at more things is invalid.

Simmons currently fills the stat sheet better than Mitchell but i dont think that he is a better player. His rebounds are easily replaceable, his assists are inflated by him being the dominant ball handler and his efficiency is bolstered by the fact that he is not the primary or even secondary scoring option. Again not saying Simmons is not good, he is a legit allstar level player, but i think Mitchell is better.

Lot's of garbage in this post. Simmons is a better rebounder and passer by a significant margin, but Mitchell being a better scorer (by not near as significant a margin), and off the ball player (thinking this is in any way equivalent to key basketball skills like passing and rebounding is funny), makes him better.

Not to mention the Simmons is a better defender due to size comment. Simmons is primarily a perimeter defender who can guard almost anyone. He can guard PG's effectively at 6'10. That's not due to size. Or else teams wouldn't hesitate using their 6'10 centers to guard PG's. Simmons is a better rebounder partly due to size (plenty of smaller guards have been great rebounders). His size advantage isn't going away any time soon. You say it as though these are things Mitchell can overcome. He's not going to end up 6'10 by putting work in the gym. Simmons ability to guard 1-5 in many situations is an incredible weapon for a team to have.

Just say you like Mitchell better and leave it at that, because using stats to back up your opinion doesn't work.


The raw stats, as well as the majority of advanced stats (especially on defense) point to Simmons. There is a reason why Simmons simply crushes Mitchell in the world of advanced stats - points are great, but they simply cannot stand against the weight of the polluted stat sheet that Simmons produces - like he did tonight.

Three triple doubles in the last four games.

I totally get people saying that Mitchell is their favorite rookie to watch...while acknowledging that Simmons is the best rookie.
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Re: RE: Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1938 » by Winglish » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:24 am

bebopdeluxe wrote:Fifteen assists. ZERO turnovers.
Most impressive thing Simmons and maybe anyone else has done this year, IMO. That is FOR REAL.

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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1939 » by LordCovington33 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:29 am

Winglish wrote:Most 25 point games by a rookie in the last 20 years:

1. Carmelo Anthony (30)

2. Blake Griffin (28)

3. Lebron James (24)

4. Donovan Mitchell (23 and counting)

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Where does he rank in FGAs?
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Re: The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III 

Post#1940 » by QPR » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:48 am

LordCovington33 wrote:
Winglish wrote:Most 25 point games by a rookie in the last 20 years:

1. Carmelo Anthony (30)

2. Blake Griffin (28)

3. Lebron James (24)

4. Donovan Mitchell (23 and counting)

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Where does he rank in FGAs?


16.7 FGA, 6.9 3FGA, 3.5 FTA.

Bron was 18.9/2.7/5.8
Melo 17.9/2.6/6.4
Griffin 16.8/0.3/8.5

So shoots less, takes significantly more threes and as expected gets to the line less.

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