Luka Doncic Part III

[UcanUwill]

I remember 19 year old Gallinari in Milan, he was very impressive, I liked him a lot. But he wasn't MVP candidate, and wasn't playing on a contender, far from it. Judging just by Euroleague, Doncic is far better player, not close. In the NBA I remember liking Gallo's potential a lot, but expectations of him weren't as high as for Doncic tho. I feel more worrysome about Doncic, but thats due to a fact he really needs to end up much better than just a decent scorer.

[Bob8]

I remember 19 year old Gallinari in Milan, he was very impressive, I liked him a lot. But he wasn't MVP candidate, and wasn't playing on a contender, far from it. Judging just by Euroleague, Doncic is far better player, not close. In the NBA I remember liking Gallo's potential a lot, but expectations of him weren't as high as for Doncic tho. I feel more worrysome about Doncic, but thats due to a fact he really needs to end up much better than just a decent scorer.

Yes, but yet again Gallinari translated 1:1 in Nba. He isn’t good passer in Nba and he wasn’t in Euroleague. I really can’t understand why people are so afraid for Doncic, especially if we know that modern heavy pick&roll Nba is made for him.

[UcanUwill]

I remember 19 year old Gallinari in Milan, he was very impressive, I liked him a lot. But he wasn't MVP candidate, and wasn't playing on a contender, far from it. Judging just by Euroleague, Doncic is far better player, not close. In the NBA I remember liking Gallo's potential a lot, but expectations of him weren't as high as for Doncic tho. I feel more worrysome about Doncic, but thats due to a fact he really needs to end up much better than just a decent scorer.

Yes, but yet again Gallinari translated 1:1 in Nba. He isn’t good passer in Nba and he wasn’t in Euroleague. I really can’t understand why people are so afraid for Doncic, especially if we know that modern heavy pick&roll Nba is made for him.

Doncic has long way to go, put him in the NBA now, he runs pick and roll fine, but he wouldn't exploit switches very well and his step back shot is very unreliable. He looks like young Harden if he develops, but thats if still.

[Bob8]

I remember 19 year old Gallinari in Milan, he was very impressive, I liked him a lot. But he wasn't MVP candidate, and wasn't playing on a contender, far from it. Judging just by Euroleague, Doncic is far better player, not close. In the NBA I remember liking Gallo's potential a lot, but expectations of him weren't as high as for Doncic tho. I feel more worrysome about Doncic, but thats due to a fact he really needs to end up much better than just a decent scorer.

Yes, but yet again Gallinari translated 1:1 in Nba. He isn’t good passer in Nba and he wasn’t in Euroleague. I really can’t understand why people are so afraid for Doncic, especially if we know that modern heavy pick&roll Nba is made for him.

Doncic has long way to go, put him in the NBA now, he runs pick and roll fine, but he wouldn't exploit switches very well and his step back shot is very unreliable. He looks like young Harden if he develops, but thats if still.

I believe people are missing one important fact. Doncic will play for a 25 wins team. That means 1/3 of their games are blown ups. Nba players are maybe capable of playing better defense than in Europe, but Doncic is in Europe guarded as first weapon of title contender. Coaches are being prepared for playing against him. They put best defenders and double teams on him non stop. Almost all matches are wars. He won’t be defendet like that in Nba, where 1/3 of the teams are tanking 1/2 of the season.

[UcanUwill]

Yes, but yet again Gallinari translated 1:1 in Nba. He isn’t good passer in Nba and he wasn’t in Euroleague. I really can’t understand why people are so afraid for Doncic, especially if we know that modern heavy pick&roll Nba is made for him.

Doncic has long way to go, put him in the NBA now, he runs pick and roll fine, but he wouldn't exploit switches very well and his step back shot is very unreliable. He looks like young Harden if he develops, but thats if still.

I believe people are missing one important fact. Doncic will play for a 25 wins team. That means 1/3 of their games are blown ups. Nba players are maybe capable of players better defense than in Europe, but Doncic is in Europe guarded as first weapon of title contender. Coaches are being prepared for playing against him. They put best defenders and double teams on him non stop. Almost all matches are wars. He won’t be defendet like that in Nba, where 1/3 of the teams are tanking 1/2 of the season.

True, but NBA pick and roll defense is still much better, with all the focus on bigmen who can switch now. Euroleague still has guys like James Augustine who are just pathetic at pick and roll defense.

[BlueSan]

Why are we constantly comparing apples and pears? Why are we constantly comparing players to Dončič and saying that we see him as future X, Y and Z player?

Let us just talk about Dončič and Dončič only. I realize that there will always be comparison, but let us just stick to once in a while time, no need to have the entire thread, debate about those things, let's talk about Dončič?

[Bob8]

Doncic has long way to go, put him in the NBA now, he runs pick and roll fine, but he wouldn't exploit switches very well and his step back shot is very unreliable. He looks like young Harden if he develops, but thats if still.

I believe people are missing one important fact. Doncic will play for a 25 wins team. That means 1/3 of their games are blown ups. Nba players are maybe capable of players better defense than in Europe, but Doncic is in Europe guarded as first weapon of title contender. Coaches are being prepared for playing against him. They put best defenders and double teams on him non stop. Almost all matches are wars. He won’t be defendet like that in Nba, where 1/3 of the teams are tanking 1/2 of the season.

True, but NBA pick and roll defense is still much better, with all the focus on bigmen who can switch now. Euroleague still has guys like James Augustine who are just pathetic at pick and roll defense.

I just want to show that everything is not black and white. Sure Nba has better athletes, but they’re not giving 100% all the time, especially in D. If you’re playing in bad team, who doesn’t qualify for playoffs, it’s very unlikely they will guard you with special attention. Then you have different rules. No 3 second defensive rule in Euroleague means, that paint is full all the time, you don’t have free line. Traveling rules are crucial, first step is much quicker in Nba and finishing with 1 step more helps too. Bigger courts.

[daoneandonly]

Not that it is not possible, anything in this world is. But it makes you think it's less likely dont you think? Can't you understand the skepticism seeing how no one else from that league has reached MVP/superstar level heights in the NBA like Doncic is hyped up to be?

I don't know if you followed my many rants, but I never said he was going to suck. i said he would be like a Joe Ingles, which is a fine player, but because of how much he is being hyped, would be considered a bust.

Joe Ingles is his lowest floor possible, but you are entitled to your own opinion ofc.

In my opininon, what daoneandonly is saying is not even an opinion (it is a super boring fact), because he never actually argumented anything. His only notion is, that he will not be a superstar, because of a statistical improbability. But superstars are superstars exactly because there is such a low probability that someone will be so much better than other players, and only when they achieve this status, they are called superstars. He never gets beyond (or around) this fact (this is what makes the word superstar meaningful) , that it is unlikley for this to happen. And it is totaly meaningles to argue about this whole probability thing. You guys are really feeding a troll. He never argued about what he thinks are his serious limitations AND HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THIS IS TRUE (the best eample of this would be that guy who watched him in fenerbahce and made an analysis of olympiacos games, i think it's Lavta or something like that).
he only tells us, what is true in EVERY THING THAT CONCERNS FUTURE when it concerns humans, i.e. that it is statisticaly unlikley that he will be above average. But we all know that, so why even argue with him, it's pointless.

Actually I've mentioned his utter lack of speed and quickness even though he's a teenager, a damn teenager and he can be outrun by a 30 something. As a Mavs fan I can't stand James harden, but shame on any of you that dare compare Doncic to harden. harden is 47 times the player Doncic is, attacks the rim better, shoots far better, is quicker, and dare I say is even a better defender, and that's saying something. I won't say stronger cause that's expected at their respective ages

Doncic is already a poor defender against C- competition, what is he going to do when he has to guard the likes of a Westbrook, George, Curry, Thompson, Lillard, McCollum, CP3, Harden, Wall, Beal, Irving, Hayward, Derozen, I'll tell you what he's going to play matador defense and let them have career days.

Enough of an argument about his flawed Euroball guard game?

[daoneandonly]

Ekpe Udoh. He was a dominating beast in Euroleague. Now he doesnt even play in Utah Jazz.Teodosic,a superstar in europe is having a so-so season with Clippers. The best transition has been this of Bogdan Bogdanovic, who i think is a fine player (actually i like him more than Doncic) but he will be nothing more that a solid starter in the league. I could go further mentioning names like Malcolm Delaney (superstar in Euroleague, towel waver in Hawks), Sergio Rodrigues, Nick Calathes (a top 3 candidate for euroleague mvp!!)

None of these statements in bold are true.

well Bodiroga was superstar in euroleague as a teenager as well.Never even attempted to play in NBA. Peja was a prolific euroleague scorer from age 19 as well.

That is factually untrue. Bodiroga did not even play in the EuroLeague until the 97-98 season, when he was 24-25.

He averaged 15.8 points, 5.8 rebounds, and 2.3 assists per game, at age 24-25.

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_,Uz02qBnJiADOq5VntEf53.season_1998.roundID_2569.playerID_8684.teamID_1020.html

How could he be a "superstar in EuroLeague as a teenager" when he didn't even play in the league until age 24?

Same with Peja. Simply untrue. He averaged 10 points a game in EuroLeague as a teenager. At age 19, he actually wasn't even playing in EuroLeague, he was in the 2nd tier European League.

94-95 at 17, he averaged 10 a game in EuroLeague, on a bad team (they were below .500).

95-96 = 18, he was playing in the 2nd tier European league.

96-97 = 19, he was playing in the 3rd tier European league.

So no, Peja in fact, was not "a prolific EuroLeague scorer at age 19" - he wasn't even in EuroLeague at that age.

http://www.fibaeurope.com/compID_,Uz02qBnJiADOq5VntEf53.season_1998.roundID_2569.playerID_18339.teamID_1003.html

Gallinari was born in August 88 so when he was performing like this in Euroleague he was 19 years old,same age as Doncic now.There isnt much of a difference as you see.

Gallinari's stats in EuroLeague, on a bad team (they were 2 games below .500 on the season), at age 23.......

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=KRD&seasoncode=E2011

16.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 1.1 assists - that was at age 23, on a bad EuroLeague team. It's really nothing at all that impressive.

How is it not true. Ekpe udoh was EuroLeague Final Four MVP, EuroLeague MVP of the Month, 3 time EuroLeague Weekly MVPs. The guy is nothing more than a bench warmer in the NBA the entire time he was here, but has these accolades in Euroleague, of course, it's a far inferior product.

Calathes won EuroCup MVP awards against Euro guards clearly, yet comes to the NBA and is just another name, he's a Shawn Respert, a Rawlee Marshall, a Mateen Cleaves. I would include Antoine Rigadeau, but nobody is that bad.

[burek3]

Well, not much more to discuss about. Empty thread 'till draft?

What if he doesn't declare/he withdraws after not winning Euroleague?

[burek3]

How is it not true. Ekpe udoh was EuroLeague Final Four MVP, EuroLeague MVP of the Month, 3 time EuroLeague Weekly MVPs. The guy is nothing more than a bench warmer in the NBA the entire time he was here, but has these accolades in Euroleague, of course, it's a far inferior product.

Glad to see another coach Obradovic fan!

[UcanUwill]

Talent doesn't translate lineary, got to judge every player individually. Calathes is better Euroleague player than Rubio, or Ingles, but obviously he is not better player in the NBA. Its a rollercoaster, sometimes NBA will find legit NBA player in Euroleague role player - like P.J. Tucker, and you would think, wow, Europe must be pretty good now. But at the same time you will get Euroleague star, who will end up being completely irrelevant in the NBA.

[baldur]

Mirotic12 strikes again. I dont get it how someone is into european basketball this much and claims ekpe udoh wasn't dominating in fenerbahce. Gtfo man.

[daoneandonly]

Someone made this point already, but Rubio translated as people thought he would. Good defender and passer, but limited offensively and from a shooting standpoint. At the time he was drafted though, no one knew that the NBA today would emphasizes perimeter shooting as much as it has, which kind of limits Rubio's overall impact.

But he didn't bust. In fact, he became exactly what most people thought he would become.

Your other examples are also lacking. Dante Exum has been marred by injuries. It doesn't really have anything to do with what he can or can't do in the NBA. He just hasn't been able to stay healthy long enough to progress and develop. Dennis Schroeder I'd say has surpassed a lot of expectations at this point, and Frank Ntiilkina already looks like he's going to be a defensive stud in this league.

Mario Hezonja is the only one that has outright busted...but that could very much to do with the crap franchise that is the Magic than anything else. Look at what guys like Harris and Oladipo have done since leaving that team. I have a feeling had he been drafted by the Spurs we'd be talking about a different Mario Hezonja, but hey.

I disagree, the hype around Rubio was absurd, it's in line with the hype we keep hearing about Doncic now. They guy was compared to Jason Kidd, he can't take Kidd's under garments to the dry cleaners.

Exum's inability to stay healthy should be counted against him, he's a grown man athlete, his injuries are not just some sheer bad luck, he also has to be accountable for his conditioning and ability to stay on the floor. he's flat out sucked in his limited time playing. Shroeder is fine for where he was picked, I can agree with that, but he is by no means a top PG. And the verdict will be out on Frank, I think he has much more bust potential than star potential, especially considering players drafted after him.

While the Orl argument carries some weight, Harris was palying really well in Mil prior to going to orl and Dipo didn't do much in his 1 year in OKC, so those examples are not exactly painting the correct picture IMHO.

Your test cases have huge holes in them, and almost none of them apply to Luka Doncic.

What holes? Donic is being hyped similarly to how Ricky "What is the playoffs" Rubio, who is a decent player, but nowhere near the hype that came with it. Never has been nor will he ever be an all star, that's Doncic, mark my words. I don't see how Exum can't be labeled as anything other than a unequivocally certified bust at this point

[Bob8]

I disagree, the hype around Rubio was absurd, it's in line with the hype we keep hearing about Doncic now. They guy was compared to Jason Kidd, he can't take Kidd's under garments to the dry cleaners.

Exum's inability to stay healthy should be counted against him, he's a grown man athlete, his injuries are not just some sheer bad luck, he also has to be accountable for his conditioning and ability to stay on the floor. he's flat out sucked in his limited time playing. Shroeder is fine for where he was picked, I can agree with that, but he is by no means a top PG. And the verdict will be out on Frank, I think he has much more bust potential than star potential, especially considering players drafted after him.

While the Orl argument carries some weight, Harris was palying really well in Mil prior to going to orl and Dipo didn't do much in his 1 year in OKC, so those examples are not exactly painting the correct picture IMHO.

Your test cases have huge holes in them, and almost none of them apply to Luka Doncic.

What holes? Donic is being hyped similarly to how Ricky "What is the playoffs" Rubio, who is a decent player, but nowhere near the hype that came with it. Never has been nor will he ever be an all star, that's Doncic, mark my words. I don't see how Exum can't be labeled as anything other than a unequivocally certified bust at this point

Rubio was 6/3/3 guy, with 22% for 3 in his last year.I feel sorry for you, If you believed he will be superstar in Nba. Rubio in Nba is 10x better player than Rubio in Europe.

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=LFW#!careerstats

But I have to agree with others, what’s enough is enough. Ignorant people with always be ignorant.

[daoneandonly]

Your test cases have huge holes in them, and almost none of them apply to Luka Doncic.

What holes? Donic is being hyped similarly to how Ricky "What is the playoffs" Rubio, who is a decent player, but nowhere near the hype that came with it. Never has been nor will he ever be an all star, that's Doncic, mark my words. I don't see how Exum can't be labeled as anything other than a unequivocally certified bust at this point

Rubio was 6/2/2 guy, with 22% for 3. I feel sorry for you, If you believed he will be superstar in Nba. Rubio in Nba is 10x better player than Rubio in Europe.

But I have to agree with others, what’s enough is enough. Ignorant people with always be ignorant.

Rubio as an 17-19 year old yeah, Rubio today would dominate Euroleague while being pedestrian in the NBA. it's funny how you keep talking age of Doncic's current competition vs NCAA kids, yet fail to include this in your logic.

[Bob8]

Mirotic12 strikes again. I dont get it how someone is into european basketball this much and claims ekpe udoh wasn't dominating in fenerbahce. Gtfo man.

Udoh was very important for Fener. But that in numbers means 12/6.5 guy.

[UcanUwill]

What holes? Donic is being hyped similarly to how Ricky "What is the playoffs" Rubio, who is a decent player, but nowhere near the hype that came with it. Never has been nor will he ever be an all star, that's Doncic, mark my words. I don't see how Exum can't be labeled as anything other than a unequivocally certified bust at this point

Rubio was 6/2/2 guy, with 22% for 3. I feel sorry for you, If you believed he will be superstar in Nba. Rubio in Nba is 10x better player than Rubio in Europe.

But I have to agree with others, what’s enough is enough. Ignorant people with always be ignorant.

Rubio as an 17-19 year old yeah, Rubio today would dominate Euroleague while being pedestrian in the NBA. it's funny how you keep talking age of Doncic's current competition vs NCAA kids, yet fail to include this in your logic.

Rubio is just not build to dominate Euroleague, Look how average he looks in every FIBA tournament, and I am biggest Rubio fanboy. He is more like 8 points 6 assists guy in the euroleague,

[Bob8]

What holes? Donic is being hyped similarly to how Ricky "What is the playoffs" Rubio, who is a decent player, but nowhere near the hype that came with it. Never has been nor will he ever be an all star, that's Doncic, mark my words. I don't see how Exum can't be labeled as anything other than a unequivocally certified bust at this point

Rubio was 6/2/2 guy, with 22% for 3. I feel sorry for you, If you believed he will be superstar in Nba. Rubio in Nba is 10x better player than Rubio in Europe.

But I have to agree with others, what’s enough is enough. Ignorant people with always be ignorant.

Rubio as an 17-19 year old yeah, Rubio today would dominate Euroleague while being pedestrian in the NBA. it's funny how you keep talking age of Doncic's current competition vs NCAA kids, yet fail to include this in your logic.

Rubio was 2 years older than Doncic, when he went in Nba.

Prime Rubio was dominated by Dončić and Slovenia in Eurobasket 6 months ago.

[baldur]

Mirotic12 strikes again. I dont get it how someone is into european basketball this much and claims ekpe udoh wasn't dominating in fenerbahce. Gtfo man.

Udoh was very important for Fener. But that in numbers means 12/6.5 guy.

http://www.euroleague.net/main/statistics?mode=Leaders&entity=Players&seasonmode=Single&seasoncode=E2016&cat=TotalRebounds&agg=Accumulated

He was the leading rebounder in Euroleague. Do you realize you play about 28 minutes in Euroleague and don't have 15 rpg like nba.