The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[_Joker]

Simmons is incredible. Just about to pass his home town on the train (I live one suburb over)... To think a genuine NBA star came from Box Hill.

[PLO]

That being said i dont think that Simmons is better than Mitchell at many things. Simmons is currently a better defender due to size, a better rebounder again due to size

I'm still laughing at this quote. I guess Mitchell will be a better defender and rebounder when he grows another 8 inches at 21 years of age, or Simmons shrinks like a woolen after a hot wash. It's a bit like saying I'd be a better basketball player than Lebron James if Lebron had no arms.

[phifans]

That being said i dont think that Simmons is better than Mitchell at many things. Simmons is currently a better defender due to size, a better rebounder again due to size

I'm still laughing at this quote. I guess Mitchell will be a better defender and rebounder when he grows another 8 inches at 21 years of age, or Simmons shrinks like a woolen after a hot wash. It's a bit like saying I'd be a better basketball player than Lebron James if Lebron had no arms.

He forgot to add that Simmons is a better facilitator due to size ...

Oh wait ...

[Sasashi]

Im a sixers fan and I hope mitchell wins the award. That will burn Simmons so bad that he will go crazy to start fixing his shot starting in the summer.

I really don’t care about the award....( see MCW) but if Simmons ever gets his outside shot/ free throw shot to just AVERAGE, he will not only become an all star, but will develop into a perennial MVP candidate. That’s the ceiling we are seeing with Simmons here as he is very good to elite in all other facets of the game already and a decent shot will further unlock the rest of his game.

Can donovan mitchell realistically reach mvp caliber player? I could be wrong but I dont think he has the package to get there.


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[SmartWentCrazy]

This thread was better before it turned into a pissing contest between Mitchell and Simmons fans.

I can get propping your guy up or believing that he should be ROY, but the disparaging of the other player is absolutely bananas to me. Both players are awesome and very fun to watch.

[Snotbubbles]

If Ben Simmons was Peter Dinklage's size I'm not sure he'd be as good at basketball tbh.

He'd be TJ McConnell.

[Trugger]

Finally worked out how to look at minutes played , the last 3 months Mitchell has played a ton more minutes,, his stats should be killing Simmons, and he takes a ton more shots ,, wonder why he scores more ???

[Young gun 6]

Simmons last night was the first rookie EVER to record 15 assists with 0 turnovers.

He is that good

[FinNasty]

Can we get any discussion about rookies other than just Simmons and Mitchell?

[bebopdeluxe]

This thread was better before it turned into a pissing contest between Mitchell and Simmons fans.

I can get propping your guy up or believing that he should be ROY, but the disparaging of the other player is absolutely bananas to me. Both players are awesome and very fun to watch.

As someone who has spent a fair amount of time repping Simmons, I hear you. That is why I wrote my last post. Both players are great. From a standpoint of sheer entertainment, I can understand why people would love watching Mitchell play - especially in crunchtime. Guys who SCORE THE BALL will always be a lot of fun to watch, and Mitchell's impressive ability to do that as a rookie is amazing. However, in terms of sheer impact on his team - on both offense and DEFENSE - Simmons is simply on another level...and his advanced stats reflect that.

And this doesn't even touch on Tatum, Kuzma, Lauri and the other great rookies this season. What an influx of talent.

[cl2117]

Simmons was obviously the rookie to talk about from last night. I'll be honest I don't think his actual performance in some of these triple-double games have been as impressive as the numbers suggest (not suggesting they're empty stats or anything, just that the numbers can overstate the impact a bit). That being said what is truly impressive to me is the ease with which he does it all. It comes to him in the flow of the game, he's not trying to do these things. He's a game changing talent for sure.

I'm a little late to be hyping it, but Tatum had a really good game on Sunday. Celtics got routed in the end, but with Kyrie and Brown out Tatum showed some much needed aggressiveness while maintaining his efficiency. It was interesting to see a glimpse of what Tatum's season could look like if he were on a lottery team. I'm hoping that as Stevens rests guys down the stretch, Tatum cements that same aggressiveness into his roleplayer function when guys are back healthy. C's really need that scoring punch he could provide.

This is one of my favorite times of year for rookie as a lot of guys are starting to get extended run. Here's a couple that I think have flown under the Mitchell/Simmons dominated radar that I liked:

Ante Zizic- an oft forgotten part of the Kyrie trade, I had big hopes for him as a stashed prospect when he was on the C's even though he didn't look ready in his summer minutes. He's finally getting some run this month and he's averaging 9/4 in 14 mins. If he can be a viable rotation piece for them that'll be a big boost. Not to mention how nice it'll be to have another positive from that trade.

Dillon Brooks- not his best game last night, but he's still averaging 18/3/2 in March on 44% from the floor and 41% from 3. Great 2nd round find thus far.

Luke Kennard- he's not been incredibly special at any point, but he's also shot 40% from 3 almost every month this year. That's a skill that is going to age well in this league.

Bam Adebayo- He's more "highlight reel" impressive than he is in terms of actual on court production, but he's someone on my list to watch. Great length, great athleticism, great hustle, great name. I'm a fan.

This thread was better before it turned into a pissing contest between Mitchell and Simmons fans.

I can get propping your guy up or believing that he should be ROY, but the disparaging of the other player is absolutely bananas to me. Both players are awesome and very fun to watch.

New rule should be that you can only mention Simmons OR Mitchell in your post.

[cksdayoff]

if ben simmons went rebound hunting every game from the first quarter, he’d average over 10 boards per game

[Kolkmania]

Read on Twitter

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I thought that selecting Bam in the lottery was a reach, but I was so wrong. He's basically the prototypical modern non-stretching center. Can handle the ball in a motion offense, massive lob threat and incredible light feet in P&R defense. You can feel that Spoelstra prefers him over Whiteside at times.

[bebopdeluxe]

Completely agree on Bam. I am a fan as well...I had no idea his game was so well-rounded.

A guy who reminds me a lot of Bam is Omari Spellman. Think he can be a 2019 lottery pick for many of the same reasons - physical defender...can face the basket...plays with an edge.

[yoyoboy]

Zizic has been playing really solid for us since he started getting playing time 8 games ago. 8.5 ppg, 4 rpg, and 1 bpg while shooting 82% from the field in 12.5 mpg. He's still not in game shape and has been working on his conditioning with ways to go, which is why it's hard to play him too many minutes at the moment, along with the fact that our coaching staff prefers to play guys like Jeff Green at center for 30 minutes a game.

[commentatorer]

Simmons will finish his rookie season with more than 8rpg and 8apg.
Currently at 7.8rpg and 7.9apg....and rising dramatically.

[APettyJ]

Anyone else think that Mitchell is a more versatile player than Simmons?

Simmons does do a lot of things well but i think Mitchell does more.
Mitchell is a good shooter, ball handler, finisher, athlete, man defender, team defender, off ball player, isolation player, shot creator and has impressed me with his play making ability recently.

The guy does everything good. He quickly became my favorite player. He makes a rookie mistake from time to time but once he tightens up his game he will be one of the best players in this league.

No.

You mention a number of things that Mitchell is good at, the only problem with your argument being that Simmons is better. It's a given that Mitchell is the better shooter, but Simmons would be ahead in most of the other qualities that you mentioned.

Well that doesnt prove my argument wrong at all. Even if Simmons was better at most things and he is not.
Being more versatile means that you have more skills at an average or above average level not that you are better at more skills.

That being said i dont think that Simmons is better than Mitchell at many things. Simmons is currently a better defender due to size, a better rebounder again due to size and a better passer but i think Mitchell is quickly developing that aspect of his game. Mitchell, on the other hand is a better scorer and off ball player. It would look like a tie but Mitchell is a good defender and looks like a good passer where Simmons is not good without the ball and is not a good scorer. So even the argument that Simmons is better at more things is invalid.

Simmons currently fills the stat sheet better than Mitchell but i dont think that he is a better player. His rebounds are easily replaceable, his assists are inflated by him being the dominant ball handler and his efficiency is bolstered by the fact that he is not the primary or even secondary scoring option. Again not saying Simmons is not good, he is a legit allstar level player, but i think Mitchell is better.

Mitchell is a better shooter. Simmons is the better scorer. Not only is he more efficient, as evidenced by his higher percentages in all the fg% categories, Simmons is by far the better finisher, being 74.1% at the rim vs 64.5% for Mitchell. Finally, less of Simmons' points come off assists, which is a defining attribute of being a "scorer" rather than just a "shooter". Simmons is assisted on just 33.9% of his FGs, compared to 36.3% for Mitchell. Again, Mitchell is very good, it's just that Simmons is better.

[sfernald]

Simmons average games are just sick these days..

Last game: 3rd triple double out of four games...
11/15/12 with 3 steals, 0 turnovers and a +30 on the night.

Damn man, can’t believe a rookie is doing this ****.

[Litany]

No.

You mention a number of things that Mitchell is good at, the only problem with your argument being that Simmons is better. It's a given that Mitchell is the better shooter, but Simmons would be ahead in most of the other qualities that you mentioned.

Well that doesnt prove my argument wrong at all. Even if Simmons was better at most things and he is not.
Being more versatile means that you have more skills at an average or above average level not that you are better at more skills.

That being said i dont think that Simmons is better than Mitchell at many things. Simmons is currently a better defender due to size, a better rebounder again due to size and a better passer but i think Mitchell is quickly developing that aspect of his game. Mitchell, on the other hand is a better scorer and off ball player. It would look like a tie but Mitchell is a good defender and looks like a good passer where Simmons is not good without the ball and is not a good scorer. So even the argument that Simmons is better at more things is invalid.

Simmons currently fills the stat sheet better than Mitchell but i dont think that he is a better player. His rebounds are easily replaceable, his assists are inflated by him being the dominant ball handler and his efficiency is bolstered by the fact that he is not the primary or even secondary scoring option. Again not saying Simmons is not good, he is a legit allstar level player, but i think Mitchell is better.

Mitchell is a better shooter. Simmons is the better scorer. Not only is he more efficient, as evidenced by his higher percentages in all the fg% categories, Simmons is by far the better finisher, being 74.1% at the rim vs 64.5% for Mitchell. Finally, less of Simmons' points come off assists, which is a defining attribute of being a "scorer" rather than just a "shooter". Simmons is assisted on just 33.9% of his FGs, compared to 36.3% for Mitchell. Again, Mitchell is very good, it's just that Simmons is better.

When looking at scoring efficiency what matters is TS%, not just simply looking at FG%. Simmons and Mitchell have pretty much identical TS% with Simmons at 55.0% and Mitchell at 54.6%.

And I have to disagree with your "Mitchell is a shooter" and Simmons is a scorer. I don't think you can consider Simmons a scorer when he has no jumpshot, no 3-pt shot, and is as bad a FT shooter as a lot of bad bigs. If anyone is a scorer, it is Mitchell. He has so many tools in his scoring toolbox, it's kind of unbelievable. That's what I love about Donovan, you take something away of his, he will kill you with something else. You take away his driving lanes? Fine, he will have his 3-pointer to use in your face. You shadow him or double him, he will use his handle and hesitations to create room and drive on you and finish (often off the wrong foot to make you less able to time your contesting his shot). He truly reminds me of Wade and Harden. He is a rookie and to be showing all of the different ways he scores at this point already is unreal. In the playoffs, his wide variety of scoring tools will become even more vital as the half-court becomes such a factor. I know Simmons is HUGE for what position he plays as the primary faciliator, and that helps him so much to create scoring opportunities. I think he is a smart enough player to work on his areas of weakness, but I can't see him being an efficient jump shooter or 3-point shooter. He is so young and seems to work on his game so I can see the FT% climbing over the years.

Mitchell has a great overall contribution at 19.9 ppg, 3.7 Reb, 3.6, Ast 1.4 Stls.

As others have pointed out, the Jazz play a motion offense, which means Assist numbers are distributed...in Snyders system we will never see a 10 assist average again (in the nba anymore, thats rare really).

I can see Mitchell as the #1 option, so Batman, where I see Simmons more as Robin. Simmons isn't gonna be your go-to guy when you need a last shot, he will be dependent on Embiid or another player to finish. Just as Magic was reliant on the success of kareem , Simmons will create a scoring opportunity to score, but he will need the person he sets up to finish while Mitchell will do it himself with all of the different ways he can kill you.

As I've said a lot, both of these guys are phenomenal talents, I'm just a little sick of people acting like Simmons flaws aren't serious while Mitchell's weaknesses are this huge thing. Mitchell is a good perimeter defender and those saying he's not aren't watching Jazz games. Simmons is great and will make All defense teams in the future, but Donovan is a good defender.

[Alatan]

No.

You mention a number of things that Mitchell is good at, the only problem with your argument being that Simmons is better. It's a given that Mitchell is the better shooter, but Simmons would be ahead in most of the other qualities that you mentioned.

Well that doesnt prove my argument wrong at all. Even if Simmons was better at most things and he is not.
Being more versatile means that you have more skills at an average or above average level not that you are better at more skills.

That being said i dont think that Simmons is better than Mitchell at many things. Simmons is currently a better defender due to size, a better rebounder again due to size and a better passer but i think Mitchell is quickly developing that aspect of his game. Mitchell, on the other hand is a better scorer and off ball player. It would look like a tie but Mitchell is a good defender and looks like a good passer where Simmons is not good without the ball and is not a good scorer. So even the argument that Simmons is better at more things is invalid.

Simmons currently fills the stat sheet better than Mitchell but i dont think that he is a better player. His rebounds are easily replaceable, his assists are inflated by him being the dominant ball handler and his efficiency is bolstered by the fact that he is not the primary or even secondary scoring option. Again not saying Simmons is not good, he is a legit allstar level player, but i think Mitchell is better.

Mitchell is a better shooter. Simmons is the better scorer. Not only is he more efficient, as evidenced by his higher percentages in all the fg% categories, Simmons is by far the better finisher, being 74.1% at the rim vs 64.5% for Mitchell. Finally, less of Simmons' points come off assists, which is a defining attribute of being a "scorer" rather than just a "shooter". Simmons is assisted on just 33.9% of his FGs, compared to 36.3% for Mitchell. Again, Mitchell is very good, it's just that Simmons is better.

You are interpreting stats without context. Simmons is not a better scorer.

FG % is not the definitive measure of efficiency, PPP is much better. Simmons takes 15 possesions to score 16 points. Mitchell takes 18.5 to score 20. Meaning Mitchell gives you more points per possession than Simmons.

You didnt factor in volume of scoring or offensive role. Players that are not the main offensive players and only take shots they can make will naturally have a higher efficiency.

You disregard scoring versatility in favor of stats. More versatile young players project to be much better scorers than those that are not.

Then you completely spin why is Simmons assisted on his shots less than Mitchell. Il give you a hint, its because Simmons is not good playing off ball and plays a drive and kick game where he has the ball for the majority of time while Mitchell is great at it and plays in a wonderful motion offense.

There is also the fact that Simmons had a full year of NBA training compared to Mitchells college training witch means that Simmons had time to learn the ropes of the NBA while Mitchell needed to test what works and what doesnt, sacrificing his efficiency.

Simmons is not a good scorer. He doesnt have a mid range game, doesnt shoot off the dribble or off ball and his finishing at the rim is mostly right handed. He relies on overpowering the defender and finishing in a predictable manner. He is also a liability on the line.

Mitchell on the other hand is a Swiss army knife when it comes to scoring. Once he masters his 3s of the dribble watch out.