2018 MVP Discussion Pt III

[BallerTalk]

Why?

He's been the leading candidate all season and no player has come close to rivaling him from October to, currently, March.

He won't get that honor because voters have a personal vendetta against him, but there's honestly no player more deserving for a first place MVP vote for the 2017-18 season than James Harden.

Says who?

Spoiler:

Michelle Beadle says,"Hellooooo!!!"

[dynamic duo]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

[BallerTalk]

A team that makes the playoffs is not a lousy team... I’m getting sick of this obsession w/ team success - “team” success led to Dragic and Draymond Green being all stars...

I found this comment pretty funny... and notably self-serving for Thunder/Westbrook fan.

Team success should be (and almost always has been) a part of any conversation about the league MVP because it speaks to a player's ability to lead and elevate the players around him.

The league is full of players who could likely put up great numbers on mediocre to crappy teams.
Ricky Davis averaged nearly 21/6/5 for a Cavs team that won only 17 games that year.
Mike James put up 20 points and 6 assists a night for a 27 win Raptors squad.
Those are career role players whose numbers didn't even get them in the All-Star conversation because most people understand numbers are hollow if they don't correlate to team success.

These are individual awards - what was Houston’s record when Harden was out hurt?

The Rockets were 4-3 when Harden was out with his hamstring injury.
They are 26-2 since his return.

[NBAFan93]

A team that makes the playoffs is not a lousy team... I’m getting sick of this obsession w/ team success - “team” success led to Dragic and Draymond Green being all stars...

I found this comment pretty funny... and notably self-serving for Thunder/Westbrook fan.

Team success should be (and almost always has been) a part of any conversation about the league MVP because it speaks to a player's ability to lead and elevate the players around him.

The league is full of players who could likely put up great numbers on mediocre to crappy teams.
Ricky Davis averaged nearly 21/6/5 for a Cavs team that won only 17 games that year.
Mike James put up 20 points and 6 assists a night for a 27 win Raptors squad.
Those are career role players whose numbers didn't even get them in the All-Star conversation because most people understand numbers are hollow if they don't correlate to team success.

These are individual awards - what was Houston’s record when Harden was out hurt?

The Rockets were 4-3 when Harden was out with his hamstring injury.
They are 26-2 since his return.

I’m not talking about deep in the lottery teams, but a team that has a winning record is successful enough that their main guy should be MVP-worthy if they are having a great year. The Cavs have had their issues, but LeBron has more than proved his value this season to be a MVP candidate.

Again Dragic was made an All Star cause of Miami’s team success (at the time)...that was ridiculous. I just saw someone saying Clint Cappella should make an All NBA team cause of team success when that is laughable compared to the other quality candidates at his position. People take team success just too far sometimes.

[Dupp]

Harden is clearly the mvp but there’s a lot of double standards regarding Lebron. AD was apparently skyrocketing up the standings while Lebron was dismissed as a candidate even though team record is similar and lebrons playing better over the course of the season.

[Gus McCrae]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

If we’re ignoring team record I’d vote Anthony Davis over both of them.

[Beffiosa]

Harden is clearly the mvp but there’s a lot of double standards regarding Lebron. AD was apparently skyrocketing up the standings while Lebron was dismissed as a candidate even though team record is similar and lebrons playing better over the course of the season.

I do agree with this.

[Grillman]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

This speaks more on your obsession with Lebron then your bball knowledge. You can’t me an MVP when you quit on your team for a 1/4 of the season. It doesn’t work like that.

[dynamic duo]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

This speaks more on your obsession with Lebron then your bball knowledge. You can’t me an MVP when you quit on your team for a 1/4 of the season. It doesn’t work like that.

did i say lebron was mvp? no.

[NBAFan93]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

This speaks more on your obsession with Lebron then your bball knowledge. You can’t me an MVP when you quit on your team for a 1/4 of the season. It doesn’t work like that.

Harden had a very recently quit on his team moment as well...Harden’s quit had worse consequences for his team.

[Boarder Patrol]

He's been the leading candidate all season and no player has come close to rivaling him from October to, currently, March.

He won't get that honor because voters have a personal vendetta against him, but there's honestly no player more deserving for a first place MVP vote for the 2017-18 season than James Harden.

Says who?

It's abundantly clear that 80% of people that follow the NBA hate Harden's style of play. We have archives on Twitter of verified accounts from basketball writers that constantly complained about Harden's game and it's human nature to hold a grudge for those type of players that frustrate you. That's why you see Harden getting 3rd and 4th place votes in multiple two-man races for league MVP, or see him completely snubbed from an All-NBA team, or see him undervalued as an overall talent when he leads teams to 50 wins in his sleep.

No, realGM is a small subset of NBA fans that actually take the ticky tacky fouls to heart. In the eyes of the overall fan base Harden is very well liked and popular I'd say only behind a few guys (LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, maybe Kyrie is really all I can think of). Every media MVP prediction I've seen has him winning. I don't deny they exist but I've never seen a verified accoaunt hate on him either aside from posting clips of egregious calls in his favor.

There are also tons of weird MVP votes every year. Look through guys full ballots and a good 1/4-1/3 of them have at least one placement that's ridiculous to almost every realGM fan.

I think Harden fans take the hate he gets on realGM and extrapolate it to the media and casuals. It's not a clean comparison.

[RightToCensor]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

This speaks more on your obsession with Lebron then your bball knowledge. You can’t me an MVP when you quit on your team for a 1/4 of the season. It doesn’t work like that.

Harden had a very recently quit on his team moment as well...Harden’s quit had worse consequences for his team.

Enlighten me on how that's relevant to the 2018 season.

[RightToCensor]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

This speaks more on your obsession with Lebron then your bball knowledge. You can’t me an MVP when you quit on your team for a 1/4 of the season. It doesn’t work like that.

did i say lebron was mvp? no.

You're implying a voter will give LeBron a 1st place vote after that disasterous January, the underwhelming record his team has had after the Isaiah trade, and the uncertainty he put on the Cavaliers about his future plans that led to them not trading for Lou Williams or DeAndre Jordan. LeBron is bigger than box score stats, you'd expect more from him.

[Jurassic_Park]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

here you go actually.. funny how you omitted steals, AND used FG%

Lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 1.5 STL, 62 TS%, WS/48 0.213, BPM 9.4, Mins/game 37.1, H2H 0-2
Harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 1.9 STL, 62.5 TS%, WS/48 0.31, BPM 11.3, Mins/game 35.5, H2H 2-0

[Grillman]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

This speaks more on your obsession with Lebron then your bball knowledge. You can’t me an MVP when you quit on your team for a 1/4 of the season. It doesn’t work like that.

did i say lebron was mvp? no.

You certainly implied he deserved a vote.

[LoneyROY]

lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 54.5 FG%
harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 45.1 FG%

harden is playing on a stacked team while lebron has to carry a injury riddled team in his 15th season all season long.

unanimous mvp you say

here you go actually.. funny how you omitted steals, AND used FG%

Lebron: 27.1 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 9 APG, 1 BPG, 1.5 STL, 62 TS%, WS/48 0.213, BPM 9.4, Mins/game 37.1, H2H 0-2
Harden: 31 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 8.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 1.9 STL, 62.5 TS%, WS/48 0.31, BPM 11.3, Mins/game 35.5, H2H 2-0

And he leads in PER, VORP, and RPM.

I love me some Bron, but let's be real here.

[HurricaneKid]

Says who?

It's abundantly clear that 80% of people that follow the NBA hate Harden's style of play. We have archives on Twitter of verified accounts from basketball writers that constantly complained about Harden's game and it's human nature to hold a grudge for those type of players that frustrate you. That's why you see Harden getting 3rd and 4th place votes in multiple two-man races for league MVP, or see him completely snubbed from an All-NBA team, or see him undervalued as an overall talent when he leads teams to 50 wins in his sleep.

No, realGM is a small subset of NBA fans that actually take the ticky tacky fouls to heart. In the eyes of the overall fan base Harden is very well liked and popular I'd say only behind a few guys (LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, maybe Kyrie is really all I can think of). Every media MVP prediction I've seen has him winning. I don't deny they exist but I've never seen a verified accoaunt hate on him either aside from posting clips of egregious calls in his favor.

There are also tons of weird MVP votes every year. Look through guys full ballots and a good 1/4-1/3 of them have at least one placement that's ridiculous to almost every realGM fan.

I think Harden fans take the hate he gets on realGM and extrapolate it to the media and casuals. It's not a clean comparison.

LeBron got every vote except for 1 vote for Melo several years ago.

Melo? I thought.

So I reached out and emailed him. To my surprise, he e-mailed back. And we had a little back and forth. And to my surprise he was just a woefully uninformed NY writer, who of course would vote for the guy the town was talking about.

The problem with the media voting isn't people with bias; its people who don't live the NBA, having a less than robust understanding of the league and the game getting votes.

[ken6199]

Good that you will have the voter's name displayed next to their votes.

If you are ignorant, at least put in the work, do your research. First vote really isn't hard this year, but you can put a case around AD/Giannis/Lillard/Westbrook/Lebron, or even Curry and Butler simply by comparing their team results with and without them.

However, I am afraid the media is going to vote Lebron as the overwhelming runner up, which imo would be a disgusting result.

[ProfessorJM]

You can't underestimate the Fred Hickmans out there as they are human beings with their own ideas or biases while voting for an award. Harden to me is a runaway MVP but I would not be shocked if a handful of voters don't vote him first.

[BallerTalk]

A team that makes the playoffs is not a lousy team... I’m getting sick of this obsession w/ team success - “team” success led to Dragic and Draymond Green being all stars...

I found this comment pretty funny... and notably self-serving for Thunder/Westbrook fan.

Team success should be (and almost always has been) a part of any conversation about the league MVP because it speaks to a player's ability to lead and elevate the players around him.

The league is full of players who could likely put up great numbers on mediocre to crappy teams.
Ricky Davis averaged nearly 21/6/5 for a Cavs team that won only 17 games that year.
Mike James put up 20 points and 6 assists a night for a 27 win Raptors squad.
Those are career role players whose numbers didn't even get them in the All-Star conversation because most people understand numbers are hollow if they don't correlate to team success.

These are individual awards - what was Houston’s record when Harden was out hurt?

The Rockets were 4-3 when Harden was out with his hamstring injury.
They are 26-2 since his return.

I’m not talking about deep in the lottery teams, but a team that has a winning record is successful enough that their main guy should be MVP-worthy if they are having a great year. The Cavs have had their issues, but LeBron has more than proved his value this season to be a MVP candidate.

...
People take team success just too far sometimes.

If players from middling teams should be eligible why not players from bottom feeders?
Doesn't the difference between those two represent the same bias toward team success as the difference between a mediocre team and a contender?

That's one of the problems with diminishing the onus on winning.
If you deprioritize the value of team success then fairness dictates you open it up for all teams. Unfortunately, that ultimately presents the specter of rewarding guys putting up hollow stats on awful teams. Guys who don't have the pressure and expectations of guys leading contending squads.

That's why Westbrook's MVP remains controversial even for some voters.
Once the novelty of the triple double wears off you're left with the reality that the league's preeminent award was given to a guy on a 6th seeded team that, as expected, got eviscerated in the post season.
It's not unreasonable that some fans and voters would have an issue with giving that type of accolade to a player on a team that has virtually no expectation of post-season success.
It undermines the precept that the game is about winning.

Again, I can understand why a Thunder fan would feel the way you do. Lack of team success was one of the biggest knocks on Westbrook's award winning season last year.
But, Russ' MVP was the textbook definition of an anomaly. It was the convergence of several factors (Durant's defection, Triple Double spectacle, Scrub teammates narrative) that culminated in a situation where voters felt comfortable eschewing tradition MVP standards for what was viewed as a unique set of circumstances.

However, it wasn't a shift from the widely held belief that team success is an integral measure for a league MVP.
Notice that, despite putting up similar numbers, Westbrook may not even finish in the top 5 MVP voting this year.