2017-2018 OKC Thunder Regular Season Thread Part Deux: Follow the Melo Brick Road

[bondom34]

Which would you rather happen? Re-sign George and keep Billy or miss the playoffs, fire Billy and get a draft pick?

Keep George. Just get the pick over with and be stuck with a moron coach for a few years. Be borderline entertaining. This team w/o PG and with Melo is just unwatchable.

[bondom34]

Did make me think for a minute though.

[slick_watts]

oh come on, guys. look at billy donovan's quotes after this game. especially this one when he said melo is "a proven scorer in this league".

i'm not a fan of donovan, but he's not a lionel hollins level simpleton. there are interviews with him in the past talking about pp100, offensive efficiency, effective field goal percentage, pace, all sorts of things. he's not a dumb coach.

he's saying this things because that's what he's supposed to say to support melo. and he supports melo because that's what westbrook and / or presti wants him to do.

presti's no dummy, either, by the way. i'm sure presti knows melo sucks now. we know he loved kanter. why'd he trade for melo, then?

everything this team has done since kd left has been aligned with one goal: keep russell westbrook happy. i don't think donovan has taken a toe-nail's width step out of line since he's been the coach. that's what they wanted when they let brooks go.

[bondom34]

Yep, that's it. All his evil ways. Oddly they did the same with Durant. And oddly Donovan's never done anything to act on anything he's ever said. Some people just have their players who they don't like. We get it, you hate Westbrook. Heck you've admitted Donovan makes no sense if he's using any of those measures, unless it was Westbrook who wanted Gibson benched too last year, or wanted Waiters playing that much the year prior. Switching narratives on a whim isn't really giving a strong point of contention. I know I shouldn't bother but its old and not even thinly veiled anymore. Sorry.

[Pillendreher]

i'm not a fan of donovan, but he's not a lionel hollins level simpleton. there are interviews with him in the past talking about pp100, offensive efficiency, effective field goal percentage, pace, all sorts of things. he's not a dumb coach.

There's nothing out there to support this notion. Citing some advanced stat does not make you a smart basketball coach. Otherwise, 90 % of RealGM could coach in the NBA.

[Pillendreher]

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Took them long enough. Donovan and Anthony are turning me into a Grant supporter with every decent game he has: 10/5 on 63 TS%/127 ORtG since Robes went down; Russ-Grant-Adams at +11 NetRtG in 142 minutes over that stretch.

I don't like this, but here I am.

[slick_watts]

i'm not a fan of donovan, but he's not a lionel hollins level simpleton. there are interviews with him in the past talking about pp100, offensive efficiency, effective field goal percentage, pace, all sorts of things. he's not a dumb coach.

There's nothing out there to support this notion. Citing some advanced stat does not make you a smart basketball coach. Otherwise, 90 % of RealGM could coach in the NBA.

coaching decisions are motivated by more than putting the best players on the court. managing personalities and a team of super competitive adults who are paid more than you is a difficult job that requires compromises. billy donovan has been around basketball all his life and there is plenty of evidence out there that supports a particular reverence for and understanding of basketball statistics and even analytics.

there are coaches like lionel hollins who actively deride statistics and openly mock anyone who uses analytics to make decisions. donovan has been the opposite of that until shortly after he arrived here. a lot of people were excited for him on dailythunder because of some of the statistics-oriented things he has said in interviews.

you are bemoaning him for making these sort of canned responses that every thunder employee from the top down has made for a decade. he's playing carmelo anthony to keep carmelo anthony happy.

[slick_watts]

Yep, that's it. All his evil ways. Oddly they did the same with Durant. And oddly Donovan's never done anything to act on anything he's ever said. Some people just have their players who they don't like. We get it, you hate Westbrook. Heck you've admitted Donovan makes no sense if he's using any of those measures, unless it was Westbrook who wanted Gibson benched too last year, or wanted Waiters playing that much the year prior. Switching narratives on a whim isn't really giving a strong point of contention. I know I shouldn't bother but its old and not even thinly veiled anymore. Sorry.

you're so melodramatic. and yes donovan has acted on things he's said, particularly on defense. you're the one blinded by hate.

donovan isn't a good coach. but he's a compliant one. the thunder is westbrook's team now.

[anthony00]

Yep, that's it. All his evil ways. Oddly they did the same with Durant. And oddly Donovan's never done anything to act on anything he's ever said. Some people just have their players who they don't like. We get it, you hate Westbrook. Heck you've admitted Donovan makes no sense if he's using any of those measures, unless it was Westbrook who wanted Gibson benched too last year, or wanted Waiters playing that much the year prior. Switching narratives on a whim isn't really giving a strong point of contention. I know I shouldn't bother but its old and not even thinly veiled anymore. Sorry.

you're so melodramatic. and yes donovan has acted on things he's said, particularly on defense. you're the one blinded by hate.

donovan isn't a good coach. but he's a compliant one. the thunder is westbrook's team now.

he is is far from competent. he is garbage rather be coached by a rock

[anthony00]

Why is Donovan a coach?

[Pillendreher]

i'm not a fan of donovan, but he's not a lionel hollins level simpleton. there are interviews with him in the past talking about pp100, offensive efficiency, effective field goal percentage, pace, all sorts of things. he's not a dumb coach.

There's nothing out there to support this notion. Citing some advanced stat does not make you a smart basketball coach. Otherwise, 90 % of RealGM could coach in the NBA.

coaching decisions are motivated by more than putting the best players on the court. managing personalities and a team of super competitive adults who are paid more than you is a difficult job that requires compromises.

Nobody said otherwise.

there is plenty of evidence out there that supports a particular reverence for and understanding of basketball statistics and even analytics.

Oh, there is? Show me.

donovan has been the opposite of that until shortly after he arrived here. a lot of people were excited for him on dailythunder because of some of the statistics-oriented things he has said in interviews.

You can talk all day long; doesn't matter if it doesn't translate to the court.

you are bemoaning him for making these sort of canned responses that every thunder employee from the top down has made for a decade. he's playing carmelo anthony to keep carmelo anthony happy.

I couldn't care less about the bull he serves the media. When it comes to the media, the Thunder are like politicans: Saying a lot lot but actually saying nothing. It does tick me off when it's not just some generic nonsense, but actually flat out idiotic stuff going against facts.

What matters to me is what actually happens on the court. If he actually does know all the things we've been talking about for months and still can't make the according decisions, then he needs to make room for somebody who can. A job being tough is no excuse for doing a bad job. With that kind of salary, you'll find plenty of people who are willing to do his job.

[slick_watts]

Nobody said otherwise.

you made a glib comment about 90% of realgm being able to coach in the nba because 'statistics'. i think that would suggest otherwise.

Oh, there is? Show me.

five seconds of googling: https://www.alligatorarmy.com/2013/2/28/4040312/billy-donovan-florida-gators-efficiency-stats-defense-offense

he knows this stuff. how many nba coaches talk about points per possession or pace in the objective, measurable sense? there's plenty more of this. you were around DT then, and i know you remember.

You can talk all day long; doesn't matter if it doesn't translate to the court.

is success on the court the thunder's only goal? maybe convincing paul george to stay? keeping the 'stars' happy? heck, even lebron gets to pick certain players he wants to play with even if they aren't the best ones.

based on what donovan has said over the course of his career, i don't think it's fair to call him a stupid coach who doesn't understand the game or any nonsense like that. it's pretty clear he's a smart guy and he's made some really insightful comments before. he's also made a lot of dumb comments that support certain players on the team.

What matters to me is what actually happens on the court. If he actually does know all the things we've been talking about for months and still can't make the according decisions, then he needs to make room for somebody who can. A job being tough is no excuse for doing a bad job. With that kind of salary, you'll find plenty of people who are willing to do his job.

his job is about more than optimizing the team, his job is also to keep the team (and, mainly, westbrook + paul george) happy. if he doesn't support carmelo in the media what happens? he goes sour and now we have a rift develop. the thunder do whatever is in their power to make this not happen. it was the same with brooks, but he wasn't as compliant as donovan is, which led to some locker room issues that began with reggie. donovan has no spine in this sense and that's what the thunder want. a company man.

[bondom34]

Yep, that's it. All his evil ways. Oddly they did the same with Durant. And oddly Donovan's never done anything to act on anything he's ever said. Some people just have their players who they don't like. We get it, you hate Westbrook. Heck you've admitted Donovan makes no sense if he's using any of those measures, unless it was Westbrook who wanted Gibson benched too last year, or wanted Waiters playing that much the year prior. Switching narratives on a whim isn't really giving a strong point of contention. I know I shouldn't bother but its old and not even thinly veiled anymore. Sorry.

you're so melodramatic. and yes donovan has acted on things he's said, particularly on defense. you're the one blinded by hate.

donovan isn't a good coach. but he's a compliant one. the thunder is westbrook's team now.

Yes. Westbrook is why Gibson never played and why Waiters got minutes. Hes why Ferguson still plays and why Roberson ( who by the way is best friends with Westbrook) gets reduced minutes.

Donovan is the coach. He hasn't used my thing advanced he's said and you yourself have said he's done these things. You lost reason to hate Westbrook and needed a new angle. Here we are.

No need to be be melodramatic yourself.

And PG has sucked.

[Pillendreher]

Nobody said otherwise.

you made a glib comment about 90% of realgm being able to coach in the nba because 'statistics'. i think that would suggest otherwise.

No. I specifically said that citing advanced statistics does not make people good basketball coaches. I never said that there wasn't more to it.

Oh, there is? Show me.

five seconds of googling: https://www.alligatorarmy.com/2013/2/28/4040312/billy-donovan-florida-gators-efficiency-stats-defense-offense

he knows this stuff. how many nba coaches talk about points per possession or pace in the objective, measurable sense? there's plenty more of this. you were around DT then, and i know you remember.

Again - just talking about it does not translate into good coaching.

You can talk all day long; doesn't matter if it doesn't translate to the court.

is success on the court the thunder's only goal? maybe convincing paul george to stay? keeping the 'stars' happy? heck, even lebron gets to pick certain players he wants to play with even if they aren't the best ones.

To quote the NewsOK beat writers 'They're happy when they're winning'. This idea that they're OK with losing as long as the team caters to them is suspect to say the least.

based on what donovan has said over the course of his career, i don't think it's fair to call him a stupid coach who doesn't understand the game or any nonsense like that. it's pretty clear he's a smart guy and he's made some really insightful comments before. he's also made a lot of dumb comments that support certain players on the team.

I'm gonna call him stupid if he makes stupid decisions. Talk is cheap, always has been. I don't care wether Donovan knows what's ORB% is or not. If he's gonna keep playing 11 man rotations, if everybody keeps standing around offensively, if the team looks like it needs a shock to its system every 3 games or so to actually play with some sort of 'fire, I'm gonna call him a terrible coach.

You yourself have talked about him saying who starts 'doesn't matter' with regards to Ferguson. How is that not being an idiot?

What matters to me is what actually happens on the court. If he actually does know all the things we've been talking about for months and still can't make the according decisions, then he needs to make room for somebody who can. A job being tough is no excuse for doing a bad job. With that kind of salary, you'll find plenty of people who are willing to do his job.

his job is about more than optimizing the team, his job is also to keep the team (and, mainly, westbrook + paul george) happy. if he doesn't support carmelo in the media what happens? he goes sour and now we have a rift develop. the thunder do whatever is in their power to make this not happen. it was the same with brooks, but he wasn't as compliant as donovan is, which led to some locker room issues that began with reggie. donovan has no spine in this sense and that's what the thunder want. a company man.

Like I said: I understand that he doesn't throw him under the bus. But at least don't make up this kind of nonsense. There's a difference between not going after your own players in public and making up stuff just to kiss their asses. You know how this looks? This looks like the head coach is afraid of a past his prime guy. You think the team doesn't know that that's just a bunch of nonsense? Russ and George might still be very delusional about him, but there's no chance in hell Adams doesn't know that Melo is a trash defender.
You focus on Melo, but forget about the rest of the team. There's a guy who's bad at his job this season and yet the coach praises him publicly while calling out those who do their jobs consistently (remember when he publicly went after Adams for getting a 4th or 5th foul early in a game?). What's that gonna do for team chemistry? Accountability within group structures actually does matter.

[Pillendreher]

Donovan is the coach.

And that is what this comes down to: In the end, it doesn't matter if Donovan is doing these things because he wants to or because he wants to cater to Russ or whomever. The personalities on this team are not gonna change unless they leave or get traded. If the head coach is unable to get the team to play the right way and play the right way consistently, he needs to go and they need to find somebody who can.

[slick_watts]

Yes. Westbrook is why Gibson never played and why Waiters got minutes. Hes why Ferguson still plays and why Roberson ( who by the way is best friends with Westbrook) gets reduced minutes.

it is clear for the last decade the thunder make a lot of decisions, including rotation decisions, based on keeping their star players as happy as possible. donovan is far more attuned to this than brooks was. i don't think he's a good coach. but i think it's preposterous to take his canned post-game comments as gospel given what we know of his basketball acumen from interviews in the past.

westbrook and roberson might be friends off the court but don't we have video evidence of westbrook asking donovan to remove roberson from the game and donovan complying?

everyone on the thunder thought waiters was a good player, somehow. but waiters also had the support of both westbrook and durant so he was untouchable.

and you know, i'm not claiming that every decision donovan makes has this sole motivation. but it's an obvious factor. i think it's hilarious someone would take his comments about carmelo and scoring at face value given what we know about donovan over the years. he's not lionel hollins.

Donovan is the coach. He hasn't used my thing advanced he's said and you yourself have said he's done these things. You lost reason to hate Westbrook and needed a new angle. Here we are.

restoring westbrook's usage to normal after the first month or so of tinkering is one thing donovan has implemented positively this year. also, changing how the team defends pick and roll twice since he's been here with the various defensive liabilities he's had to deal with. most of the changes he makes are innocuous when it comes to how durant, westbrook or (now) george would view him. i wonder if that is a coincidence.

No need to be be melodramatic yourself.

moi? bruh, you preface every single reply to me with a promise never to reply again and spurious accusations against my character. can't we just talk basketball?

And PG has sucked.

PG is fourth among small forward on RPM, and even higher than kevin durant! up until dre got hurt he was a monster. he had that hot stretch right after but has bottomed out a bit. maybe fatigued from defense, who knows. must be frustrating for him and adams sometimes.

i've been pleasantly surprised by PG for the most part. but he is a little enigmatic at times.

[bondom34]

Yes. Westbrook is why Gibson never played and why Waiters got minutes. Hes why Ferguson still plays and why Roberson ( who by the way is best friends with Westbrook) gets reduced minutes.

it is clear for the last decade the thunder make a lot of decisions, including rotation decisions, based on keeping their star players as happy as possible. donovan is far more attuned to this than brooks was. i don't think he's a good coach. but i think it's preposterous to take his canned post-game comments as gospel given what we know of his basketball acumen from interviews in the past.

westbrook and roberson might be friends off the court but don't we have video evidence of westbrook asking donovan to remove roberson from the game and donovan complying?

everyone on the thunder thought waiters was a good player, somehow. but waiters also had the support of both westbrook and durant so he was untouchable.

and you know, i'm not claiming that every decision donovan makes has this sole motivation. but it's an obvious factor. i think it's hilarious someone would take his comments about carmelo and scoring at face value given what we know about donovan over the years. he's not lionel hollins.

Donovan is the coach. He hasn't used my thing advanced he's said and you yourself have said he's done these things. You lost reason to hate Westbrook and needed a new angle. Here we are.

restoring westbrook's usage to normal after the first month or so of tinkering is one thing donovan has implemented positively this year. also, changing how the team defends pick and roll twice since he's been here with the various defensive liabilities he's had to deal with. most of the changes he makes are innocuous when it comes to how durant, westbrook or (now) george would view him. i wonder if that is a coincidence.

No need to be be melodramatic yourself.

moi? bruh, you preface every single reply to me with a promise never to reply again and spurious accusations against my character. can't we just talk basketball?

And PG has sucked.

PG is fourth among small forward on RPM, and even higher than kevin durant! up until dre got hurt he was a monster. he had that hot stretch right after but has bottomed out a bit. maybe fatigued from defense, who knows. must be frustrating for him and adams sometimes.

i've been pleasantly surprised by PG for the most part. but he is a little enigmatic at times.

I'm not using hos canned quotes. I'm using his admission he didn't try to coach an offense early on, his conitued use of poor lineuls, his bizarre benching (and please explain why Westbrook of all people would insist on Ferguson playing) of better players (same for Taj here) and actually not sticking up for players in game. You could argue Brooks actually did that but has Donovan been given a technmore than 2 times?

I'm not taking comments at face value but at some point they need to be mpre than just coach speak. I understand it at times. Now is not one.

Your argument here shifts on an unsubstantiated basis to whatever you think paints Westbrook in a poor light. Its been that way for years because you yourself don't like him.

And no, George has, like Durant, managed to avoid criticism. He goes 3 for 15 or whatever and nothing. If its Russ some posters would be killing him for it.
Also Donovan still hasn't made the most glaring changes needed while doing things that make no sense for.anyone to.want.

[slick_watts]

Like I said: I understand that he doesn't throw him under the bus. But at least don't make up this kind of nonsense. There's a difference between not going after your own players in public and making up stuff just to kiss their asses. You know how this looks? This looks like the head coach is afraid of a past his prime guy. You think the team doesn't know that that's just a bunch of nonsense? Russ and George might still be very delusional about him, but there's no chance in hell Adams doesn't know that Melo is a trash defender.
You focus on Melo, but forget about the rest of the team. There's a guy who's bad at his job this season and yet the coach praises him publicly while calling out those who do their jobs consistently (remember when he publicly went after Adams for getting a 4th or 5th foul early in a game?). What's that gonna do for team chemistry? Accountability within group structures actually does matter.

lol i don't even think donovan is a good coach. but a lot of what he says and does is motivated by other things. you guys jump down his throat for every thing that comes out of his mouth in post-game even when it's clear that it's not possible he actually believes these things. if he does then he's somehow lost basketball knowledge in the last three years. he is not stupid.

my interpretation of the handling of melo is that this is the thunder catering to what he wants and, by extension, what westbrook and george want. donovan's comments about him make no sense within the context of knowledge he's demonstrated in the past.

the same exact themes and problems for this team are occurring now that occurred with brooks and with kevin durant as the leader. this isn't a westbrook-specific thing i'm slamming him for. the thunder over played dion waiters and dragged reggie through the mud while scott brooks was coach. it's just the culture of the organization.

there is never, ever going to be a free thinking coach capable of independent thinking who would even deign to bench a star player as a 'message' as long as sam presti is general manager. will. not. happen.

[Dadouv47]

Would you rather play the blazers or Golden State without Curry in the first round? For me clearly second option. Portland match up so well against us

Anyway let's try to go to the playoffs first...

[Balkman32]

Would you rather play the blazers or Golden State without Curry in the first round? For me clearly second option. Portland match up so well against us

Anyway let's try to go to the playoffs first...

GSW - You will have to go through them at some point. might as well do it when their best player is not available. I have a feeling if they get to a game s7 in round 1 Curry will suddenly be available.