Game 74: Boston Celtics (49-23) @ Sacramento Kings (24-49) - 6:00 PM ET

[ducler]

[SacKingZZZ]

Another beat up team come on down!

[benchmobbin02]

Brown Tatum Horford and Rozier should get the job done.

[SacKingZZZ]

Bogdans VC post dunk celebration might be the highlight of the year. ha ha ha ha.

[City of Trees]

How many times do the Kings have to hear the other teams media say "we didnt play our best" before the Kings start getting respect?

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[City of Trees]

With that being said I need Boston to go on a run and win this game for the tank.

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[rpa]

In the draft thread I think I said something along the lines of "I'd at least consider Trae Young over Fox" and this game is EXACTLY why.

Fox had more turnovers than 3s, steals, blocks, assists, and rebounds COMBINED. He had 1 assist. In 26 minutes. That's absolutely unreal for a PG. You can't have a PG who's both NOT a good playmaker nor a good shooter (at volume).

I know people love his speed, athleticism, and character, but man--if I had known he'd be this bad at playmaking coming out of school he'd have absolutely plummeted on my draft board.

[benchmobbin02]

I know they could do it.

[SacKingZZZ]

In the draft thread I think I said something along the lines of "I'd at least consider Trae Young over Fox" and this game is EXACTLY why.

Fox had more turnovers than 3s, steals, blocks, assists, and rebounds COMBINED. He had 1 assist. In 26 minutes. That's absolutely unreal for a PG. You can't have a PG who's both NOT a good playmaker nor a good shooter (at volume).

I know people love his speed, athleticism, and character, but man--if I had known he'd be this bad at playmaking coming out of school he'd have absolutely plummeted on my draft board.

You have to admit that the Kings don't really run a PG centric offense. They run him around as many screens and set him up for shots as much as they run sets through him. I think he will eventually benefit from playing off the ball but many of us would love to see more two man game from him and the court spread to make the most of his driving ability. That's where his potential is.

[kingjawn100]

In the draft thread I think I said something along the lines of "I'd at least consider Trae Young over Fox" and this game is EXACTLY why.

Fox had more turnovers than 3s, steals, blocks, assists, and rebounds COMBINED. He had 1 assist. In 26 minutes. That's absolutely unreal for a PG. You can't have a PG who's both NOT a good playmaker nor a good shooter (at volume).

I know people love his speed, athleticism, and character, but man--if I had known he'd be this bad at playmaking coming out of school he'd have absolutely plummeted on my draft board.

You kinda hit it right on the head...essentially what no Kings fan wants to hear. Considering Fox was legitimately in the conversation for the number 1 pick in the draft last year i'd say Fox's rookie season has been a disappointment. It's one of those things you hold your breath because he shows flashes and players around the league all say he's gonna be good but man...there are some glaring weaknesses to his game. It was the same knock on him coming out of high school...his only above average NBA level skill is sprinting down the court faster than everyone else.

The real scary thing: If Fox doesn't turn into a borderline all-star down the road what exactly is this team? i think most kings fans after the draft assumed this was the face of the franchise/primary scoring option for the next 10 years. I don't really see that.

Fox seems like a point guard by title only. There's just no orchestration or creativity from his game in terms of passing.
The Trae Young question is a good one but im not sure if id pull that trigger. To draft a point guard again you'd have to really love the guy you're picking and Trae Young will kill you on the defensive side of the ball. But if we end up falling to 8/9 and it's between Trae and Wendell Carter/kevin Knox etc i might have to take Trae. If we're really trying to win a championship one day, not just fight for an 8-seed you've gotta swing for the fences and that is a big-time boom-or-bust pick. Buddy's trade value is as high right now as it's ever been so maybe you move him for a veteran big man after the draft. All hypothetical.

My hunch is that Vlade is high on Harry and in love with our current backcourt and will take the best SF available...which may not be sound strategy.

[benchmobbin02]

In the draft thread I think I said something along the lines of "I'd at least consider Trae Young over Fox" and this game is EXACTLY why.

Fox had more turnovers than 3s, steals, blocks, assists, and rebounds COMBINED. He had 1 assist. In 26 minutes. That's absolutely unreal for a PG. You can't have a PG who's both NOT a good playmaker nor a good shooter (at volume).

I know people love his speed, athleticism, and character, but man--if I had known he'd be this bad at playmaking coming out of school he'd have absolutely plummeted on my draft board.

You kinda hit it right on the head...essentially what no Kings fan wants to hear. Considering Fox was legitimately in the conversation for the number 1 pick in the draft last year i'd say Fox's rookie season has been a disappointment. It's one of those things you hold your breath because he shows flashes and players around the league all say he's gonna be good but man...there are some glaring weaknesses to his game. It was the same knock on him coming out of high school...his only above average NBA level skill is sprinting down the court faster than everyone else.

The real scary thing: If Fox doesn't turn into a borderline all-star down the road what exactly is this team? i think most kings fans after the draft assumed this was the face of the franchise/primary scoring option for the next 10 years. I don't really see that.

Fox seems like a point guard by title only. There's just no orchestration or creativity from his game in terms of passing.
The Trae Young question is a good one but im not sure if id pull that trigger. To draft a point guard again you'd have to really love the guy you're picking and Trae Young will kill you on the defensive side of the ball. But if we end up falling to 8/9 and it's between Trae and Wendell Carter/kevin Knox etc i might have to take Trae. If we're really trying to win a championship one day, not just fight for an 8-seed you've gotta swing for the fences and that is a big-time boom-or-bust pick. Buddy's trade value is as high right now as it's ever been so maybe you move him for a veteran big man after the draft. All hypothetical.

My hunch is that Vlade is high on Harry and in love with our current backcourt and will take the best SF available...which may not be sound strategy.

I have 2 things to say to this whole discussion.

1. I don't know what people were expecting. This is what he was at Kentucky as well. He is gonna have to develop these parts of his game.

Westbrook was the same way. In college he was 6'3 187. Had a bad jump shot and only avg 4.3 ast a game. He made his bones with his athleticism, defense, getting to the rim and potential.

Fox is 6'3 175. Had a poor jump shot coming in and avg 4.3 ast a game. He made his bones on athleticism, defense, getting to the rim and potential.

It's gonna take time.

2. We have a pretty good play maker starting at the 2. As BB develops I think he will bump his ast up from the avg 3 to avg 6 or 7. He already shows flashes of that with games where he goes for 6,7,8, or even 10 ast. He just needs to work on being more consistent. He'll have one or 2 good games and then disappear. I theorize that the grueling NBA schedule is rough on him with the added stress of being in a new country and culture.

So I say relax. These are rookies.

[jazanetti]

My eyes bleed when Cauley-Stein tries to score. He can do absolutely nothing. I'm starting to think we needed to release him instead of PapaG.

[LightTheBeam]

In the draft thread I think I said something along the lines of "I'd at least consider Trae Young over Fox" and this game is EXACTLY why.

Fox had more turnovers than 3s, steals, blocks, assists, and rebounds COMBINED. He had 1 assist. In 26 minutes. That's absolutely unreal for a PG. You can't have a PG who's both NOT a good playmaker nor a good shooter (at volume).

I know people love his speed, athleticism, and character, but man--if I had known he'd be this bad at playmaking coming out of school he'd have absolutely plummeted on my draft board.

You kinda hit it right on the head...essentially what no Kings fan wants to hear. Considering Fox was legitimately in the conversation for the number 1 pick in the draft last year i'd say Fox's rookie season has been a disappointment. It's one of those things you hold your breath because he shows flashes and players around the league all say he's gonna be good but man...there are some glaring weaknesses to his game. It was the same knock on him coming out of high school...his only above average NBA level skill is sprinting down the court faster than everyone else.

The real scary thing: If Fox doesn't turn into a borderline all-star down the road what exactly is this team? i think most kings fans after the draft assumed this was the face of the franchise/primary scoring option for the next 10 years. I don't really see that.

Fox seems like a point guard by title only. There's just no orchestration or creativity from his game in terms of passing.
The Trae Young question is a good one but im not sure if id pull that trigger. To draft a point guard again you'd have to really love the guy you're picking and Trae Young will kill you on the defensive side of the ball. But if we end up falling to 8/9 and it's between Trae and Wendell Carter/kevin Knox etc i might have to take Trae. If we're really trying to win a championship one day, not just fight for an 8-seed you've gotta swing for the fences and that is a big-time boom-or-bust pick. Buddy's trade value is as high right now as it's ever been so maybe you move him for a veteran big man after the draft. All hypothetical.

My hunch is that Vlade is high on Harry and in love with our current backcourt and will take the best SF available...which may not be sound strategy.

I have 2 things to say to this whole discussion.

1. I don't know what people were expecting. This is what he was at Kentucky as well. He is gonna have to develop these parts of his game.

Westbrook was the same way. In college he was 6'3 187. Had a bad jump shot and only avg 4.3 ast a game. He made his bones with his athleticism, defense, getting to the rim and potential.

Fox is 6'3 175. Had a poor jump shot coming in and avg 4.3 ast a game. He made his bones on athleticism, defense, getting to the rim and potential.

It's gonna take time.

2. We have a pretty good play maker starting at the 2. As BB develops I think he will bump his ast up from the avg 3 to avg 6 or 7. He already shows flashes of that with games where he goes for 6,7,8, or even 10 ast. He just needs to work on being more consistent. He'll have one or 2 good games and then disappear. I theorize that the grueling NBA schedule is rough on him with the added stress of being in a new country and culture.

So I say relax. These are rookies.

Its also funny how hot and cold Kings fans can be on this kid. HES 19, and playing in his first 82 game season. Inconsistency is there for almost every rookie.

Look at his game logs https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/foxde01/gamelog/2018

Hes inconsistent but that is to be expected at his age. Hes shown he can get 8-9-10 assists in a game. Hes also shown the ability to score ESPECIALLY in clutch situations.

Relax, take a deep breathe. Give the kid a year before we figure this thing out. As Mobbin said, Westbrook rookie season 5.9Assists per 36. Fox is at 5.6. The very next year Westbrook jumped to 8.3. Lets give Fox a chance.

[codydaze]

You kinda hit it right on the head...essentially what no Kings fan wants to hear. Considering Fox was legitimately in the conversation for the number 1 pick in the draft last year i'd say Fox's rookie season has been a disappointment. It's one of those things you hold your breath because he shows flashes and players around the league all say he's gonna be good but man...there are some glaring weaknesses to his game. It was the same knock on him coming out of high school...his only above average NBA level skill is sprinting down the court faster than everyone else.

The real scary thing: If Fox doesn't turn into a borderline all-star down the road what exactly is this team? i think most kings fans after the draft assumed this was the face of the franchise/primary scoring option for the next 10 years. I don't really see that.

Fox seems like a point guard by title only. There's just no orchestration or creativity from his game in terms of passing.
The Trae Young question is a good one but im not sure if id pull that trigger. To draft a point guard again you'd have to really love the guy you're picking and Trae Young will kill you on the defensive side of the ball. But if we end up falling to 8/9 and it's between Trae and Wendell Carter/kevin Knox etc i might have to take Trae. If we're really trying to win a championship one day, not just fight for an 8-seed you've gotta swing for the fences and that is a big-time boom-or-bust pick. Buddy's trade value is as high right now as it's ever been so maybe you move him for a veteran big man after the draft. All hypothetical.

My hunch is that Vlade is high on Harry and in love with our current backcourt and will take the best SF available...which may not be sound strategy.

I have 2 things to say to this whole discussion.

1. I don't know what people were expecting. This is what he was at Kentucky as well. He is gonna have to develop these parts of his game.

Westbrook was the same way. In college he was 6'3 187. Had a bad jump shot and only avg 4.3 ast a game. He made his bones with his athleticism, defense, getting to the rim and potential.

Fox is 6'3 175. Had a poor jump shot coming in and avg 4.3 ast a game. He made his bones on athleticism, defense, getting to the rim and potential.

It's gonna take time.

2. We have a pretty good play maker starting at the 2. As BB develops I think he will bump his ast up from the avg 3 to avg 6 or 7. He already shows flashes of that with games where he goes for 6,7,8, or even 10 ast. He just needs to work on being more consistent. He'll have one or 2 good games and then disappear. I theorize that the grueling NBA schedule is rough on him with the added stress of being in a new country and culture.

So I say relax. These are rookies.

Its also funny how hot and cold Kings fans can be on this kid. HES 19, and playing in his first 82 game season. Inconsistency is there for almost every rookie.

Look at his game logs https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/foxde01/gamelog/2018

Hes inconsistent but that is to be expected at his age. Hes shown he can get 8-9-10 assists in a game. Hes also shown the ability to score ESPECIALLY in clutch situations.

Relax, take a deep breathe. Give the kid a year before we figure this thing out. As Mobbin said, Westbrook rookie season 5.9Assists per 36. Fox is at 5.6. The very next year Westbrook jumped to 8.3. Lets give Fox a chance.

Exactly this. Pump the brakes guys. For yesterday's game too it's not like he had 5+ turnovers, he had three. It's not fair to Fox to be going crazy over his game winners and 20 points games and then question his future prospects with a meh game (not even a bad game).

[kingjawn100]

i'm not saying he won't turn into a good/very good player. My issue is it's a little unrealistic to project him as a perennial all-star down the road, which is what most projected him to be when he was drafted. And it's fine if he's not an all-star but that also means if we're going to be a deep playoff run sort of team, the centerpiece of that team probably isn't even on the roster yet, which is kinda scary considering we prob won't have a top 5 pick this year and have no 1st rounder next year.

In some ways Fox has changed as a player since college. He was getting to the line 6 times per game at Kentucky. This year he's at two and a half in virtually the same amount of minutes. That memorable game where he scored 39 vs Lonzo/UCLA in the tournament he got to the line 15 times!! He hasn't hit double figures once this year. Also the playmaking is more of a concern for me than the shooting. That will come.

As i've said before...Long term to me Fox is a dynamic 6th man off the bench where there's not such a burden on him to create for others. I feel the less handcuffed he is to run a traditional offense the better he'll be.

[jazanetti]

i'm not saying he won't turn into a good/very good player. My issue is it's a little unrealistic to project him as a perennial all-star down the road, which is what most projected him to be when he was drafted. And it's fine if he's not an all-star but that also means if we're going to be a deep playoff run sort of team, the centerpiece of that team probably isn't even on the roster yet, which is kinda scary considering we prob won't have a top 5 pick this year and have no 1st rounder next year.

In some ways Fox has changed as a player since college. He was getting to the line 6 times per game at Kentucky. This year he's at two and a half in virtually the same amount of minutes. That memorable game where he scored 39 vs Lonzo/UCLA in the tournament he got to the line 15 times!! He hasn't hit double figures once this year. Also the playmaking is more of a concern for me than the shooting. That will come.

As i've said before...Long term to me Fox is a dynamic 6th man off the bench where there's not such a burden on him to create for others. I feel the less handcuffed he is to run a traditional offense the better he'll be.

Fox gets few FT because of his rookie status. If he will continue to play the same manner his FT numbers will increase.
To me the main concern about Fox's future is Bogi's development)

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[SacKingZZZ]

i'm not saying he won't turn into a good/very good player. My issue is it's a little unrealistic to project him as a perennial all-star down the road, which is what most projected him to be when he was drafted. And it's fine if he's not an all-star but that also means if we're going to be a deep playoff run sort of team, the centerpiece of that team probably isn't even on the roster yet, which is kinda scary considering we prob won't have a top 5 pick this year and have no 1st rounder next year.

In some ways Fox has changed as a player since college. He was getting to the line 6 times per game at Kentucky. This year he's at two and a half in virtually the same amount of minutes. That memorable game where he scored 39 vs Lonzo/UCLA in the tournament he got to the line 15 times!! He hasn't hit double figures once this year. Also the playmaking is more of a concern for me than the shooting. That will come.

As i've said before...Long term to me Fox is a dynamic 6th man off the bench where there's not such a burden on him to create for others. I feel the less handcuffed he is to run a traditional offense the better he'll be.

But is that just his problem or partly a system problem? The Kings are dead last in FTA's per game and for a good reason. They run more of a college oriented offensive system that relies on side to side ball movement, off ball cuts, and mostly transition drives when getting to the rim. They don't clear the paint very often and there is almost always one if not two big men at the rim looking to post, screen, or offensive rebound. The Kings are looking for the mid-range shots and those shots are almost always going to be non-contact. The Kings are 28th FGA's from 5 feet and in, 3rd in shots from 15-19 feet, and 8th in shots from 10-14 feet.

[kingjawn100]

i'm not saying he won't turn into a good/very good player. My issue is it's a little unrealistic to project him as a perennial all-star down the road, which is what most projected him to be when he was drafted. And it's fine if he's not an all-star but that also means if we're going to be a deep playoff run sort of team, the centerpiece of that team probably isn't even on the roster yet, which is kinda scary considering we prob won't have a top 5 pick this year and have no 1st rounder next year.

In some ways Fox has changed as a player since college. He was getting to the line 6 times per game at Kentucky. This year he's at two and a half in virtually the same amount of minutes. That memorable game where he scored 39 vs Lonzo/UCLA in the tournament he got to the line 15 times!! He hasn't hit double figures once this year. Also the playmaking is more of a concern for me than the shooting. That will come.

As i've said before...Long term to me Fox is a dynamic 6th man off the bench where there's not such a burden on him to create for others. I feel the less handcuffed he is to run a traditional offense the better he'll be.

But is that just his problem or partly a system problem? The Kings are dead last in FTA's per game and for a good reason. They run more of a college oriented offensive system that relies on side to side ball movement, off ball cuts, and mostly transition drives when getting to the rim. They don't clear the paint very often and there is almost always one if not two big men at the rim looking to post, screen, or offensive rebound. The Kings are looking for the mid-range shots and those shots are almost always going to be non-contact. The Kings are 28th FGA's from 5 feet and in, 3rd in shots from 15-19 feet, and 8th in shots from 10-14 feet.

Regarding the free throw thing its not as simple as...'as he gets more experience he'll get more calls'. It might be the size/strength of NBA players but fox has seemed very reluctant on the pro level to drive to the rim. There have been games this year when he literally drove to the basket 0, 1 or 2 times the entire game. It's hard to be effective when your outside shot is inconsistent and you never drive to the rack.

Also Bogi and Buddy seem to lack the wiggle/elusiveness to shed their man and get to the rim to draw fouls. For all 3 that's a big step in their development. Buddy can be a legit 20ppg scorer if he figures how to get to the foul line.

[LightTheBeam]

i'm not saying he won't turn into a good/very good player. My issue is it's a little unrealistic to project him as a perennial all-star down the road, which is what most projected him to be when he was drafted. And it's fine if he's not an all-star but that also means if we're going to be a deep playoff run sort of team, the centerpiece of that team probably isn't even on the roster yet, which is kinda scary considering we prob won't have a top 5 pick this year and have no 1st rounder next year.

In some ways Fox has changed as a player since college. He was getting to the line 6 times per game at Kentucky. This year he's at two and a half in virtually the same amount of minutes. That memorable game where he scored 39 vs Lonzo/UCLA in the tournament he got to the line 15 times!! He hasn't hit double figures once this year. Also the playmaking is more of a concern for me than the shooting. That will come.

As i've said before...Long term to me Fox is a dynamic 6th man off the bench where there's not such a burden on him to create for others. I feel the less handcuffed he is to run a traditional offense the better he'll be.

But is that just his problem or partly a system problem? The Kings are dead last in FTA's per game and for a good reason. They run more of a college oriented offensive system that relies on side to side ball movement, off ball cuts, and mostly transition drives when getting to the rim. They don't clear the paint very often and there is almost always one if not two big men at the rim looking to post, screen, or offensive rebound. The Kings are looking for the mid-range shots and those shots are almost always going to be non-contact. The Kings are 28th FGA's from 5 feet and in, 3rd in shots from 15-19 feet, and 8th in shots from 10-14 feet.

Regarding the free throw thing its not as simple as...'as he gets more experience he'll get more calls'. It might be the size/strength of NBA players but fox has seemed very reluctant on the pro level to drive to the rim. There have been games this year when he literally drove to the basket 0, 1 or 2 times the entire game. It's hard to be effective when your outside shot is inconsistent and you never drive to the rack.

Also Bogi and Buddy seem to lack the wiggle/elusiveness to shed their man and get to the rim to draw fouls. For all 3 that's a big step in their development. Buddy can be a legit 20ppg scorer if he figures how to get to the foul line.

I look at that as a coaching issue not a fox issue.

How can you drive to the lane when the entire year we've packed the paint with guys like Koufos, and ZBo. On fast breaks he always goes to the paint, but its almost impossible to expect a 19-20 year old to break down a defense only to run into ZBo posting up on the block.

[KF10]

Both Fox's and Mike Conley's rookie year are almost exact mirrors to each other.

I ain't worried about Fox.

Fox is a Conley & Schröder hybrid.

Relax guys.