The case against Trae Young

[Def Swami]

Agree with Skin, I'd still gladly take Trae Young top 5. He's an offensive powerhouse. His shooting threat and ability to make plays for others would change any offense. Struggles and all, what he did as a 19 y/o freshman on a really bad roster was impressive. And this team needs a lot of things, but it currently has ZERO playmakers. Young ticks the mark of a shot-maker and playmaker. I really think he'd make things easier for guys like Isaac and Gordon.

Defense will always be a shortcoming for Young, but TBH, I'm less interested in my point guard being lockdown if he can be a superior offensive force nightly, like Kyrie, Lillard, Curry etc. I also believe that point guard defense is less and less valued (unless your Pat Beverly) in a league where star guards are going to beat a good defender 9/10 times.

If you are sitting at 3 or 4, would you take him over Doncic, if both available?

I honestly don't know yet. I just haven't seen enough of Doncic to have a strong opinion of him. I like the idea of Doncic; he'd provide playmaking that the Magic need. I wish Doncic were a better shooter from deep. Every scout, draft expert online is in love with Doncic though. I have rarely found anyone who studies this more than I do that doesn't believe Doncic should go top 2. But just from what I saw, you could talk me into Young over Doncic. I've been on the Trae Young bandwagon from the jump. I like his game and intangibles. I think he has the framework and skills to be more Steve Nash than Steph Curry, and I think the Magic could benefit from that style of play.

It may probably change, but this is how I view it for the Magic right now

1. Ayton
2. Doncic
3. Bagley
4. Young
5. Bamba
6. Bridges
7. JJJ
8. MPJ

[OrlandO]

For a record i have no will to make it another me vs Payton fans debate all over again where i spent like 5 months telling people how bad he is until they finally decided to open eyes. We will see what Young is . I belive he is new Thomas, player that gets offense but sucks so hard on defense that it makes him unplayable if your goal is ever leave first round. Time will tell. Just like it did with "biggest win share on Magic, guy who made some guy fall in love in basketball again " Payton.

I'll just laugh at people who never saw single min of Doncic and because they clicked on youtube clip of him they think they understand his impact on a game. Same people tend to belive that 30 ppg on 42% FG is good so ... yea.. Iverson is GOAT

Dude, you're destroying yourself.

42% FG is not bad at all considering he got to the line on those missed shots and made a secondary living at the FT line (8.6 FTA/Gm - 86% FT Shooter) and more especially since he took 10 3 pointers per game.

His .586 TS% is much more impressive.

Fyi missed shots on fouls don't get counted as attempts... the 42% is on clean attempts.

[pepe1991]

For a record i have no will to make it another me vs Payton fans debate all over again where i spent like 5 months telling people how bad he is until they finally decided to open eyes. We will see what Young is . I belive he is new Thomas, player that gets offense but sucks so hard on defense that it makes him unplayable if your goal is ever leave first round. Time will tell. Just like it did with "biggest win share on Magic, guy who made some guy fall in love in basketball again " Payton.

I'll just laugh at people who never saw single min of Doncic and because they clicked on youtube clip of him they think they understand his impact on a game. Same people tend to belive that 30 ppg on 42% FG is good so ... yea.. Iverson is GOAT

Just wondering.... what does your big board look like?

*alert.... non aggressive post*. lol.... i really am interested on your take and who you really like...without scouring 50 pages. haha

1) Doncic- Ayton
2) whoever falls
3) Bagley
4) JJJ
5) Porter
6) Young
7) Bamba

pick that most teams will pass and regret- Briges.
Sneaky biggest steal in a draw- Sexton.
Player i would never ever draft in first round - Dzanan Musa.
Guy who is walking enigma to me- SG Alexander ( could see him being total prospect but could imagine him being contributor from day one, guy is confusing to watch )

[pepe1991]

LOOOOOOOOL i just figured it out now that you actually DIDN'T know after years of watching basketball that FGA under foul ONLY counts IF IT GOES IN? ??? And you are one who called my basketball knowledge , questioned IQ? My God. This might be biggest example of Dunning–Kruger effect in history.

Well done Skin, feel sorry for other 3 people who's brain on autopilot as well.

[pepe1991]

For a record i have no will to make it another me vs Payton fans debate all over again where i spent like 5 months telling people how bad he is until they finally decided to open eyes. We will see what Young is . I belive he is new Thomas, player that gets offense but sucks so hard on defense that it makes him unplayable if your goal is ever leave first round. Time will tell. Just like it did with "biggest win share on Magic, guy who made some guy fall in love in basketball again " Payton.

I'll just laugh at people who never saw single min of Doncic and because they clicked on youtube clip of him they think they understand his impact on a game. Same people tend to belive that 30 ppg on 42% FG is good so ... yea.. Iverson is GOAT

Dude, you're destroying yourself.

42% FG is not bad at all considering he got to the line on those missed shots and made a secondary living at the FT line (8.6 FTA/Gm - 86% FT Shooter) and more especially since he took 10 3 pointers per game.

His .586 TS% is much more impressive.

Fyi missed shots on fouls don't get counted as attempts... the 42% is on clean attempts.

I just can't stop laughing . This was live suicide of credibility

[RookieStar]

Someone asks if Doncic and Young are there, who do they pick? I think 99% of realgm and the NBA would pick Doncic right now. Doncic was already scouted and followed even before last year while Trae was only noticed when he started in the NCAA.

But yeah, in the combine and stuff before the draft, I think our GM can measure properly if they should take Trae with the pick or not. As it stands however, I'm picking Trae only if the upper tiers of Ayton Bagley Doncic Porter Bamba is gone.. I think he belongs to the JJJ Bridges Trae and CArter tier.

[Skin]

Dude, you're destroying yourself.

42% FG is not bad at all considering he got to the line on those missed shots and made a secondary living at the FT line (8.6 FTA/Gm - 86% FT Shooter) and more especially since he took 10 3 pointers per game.

His .586 TS% is much more impressive.

Fyi missed shots on fouls don't get counted as attempts... the 42% is on clean attempts.

I just can't stop laughing . This was live suicide of credibility

OrlandO is my kryptonite. You guys got me this time!

Somewhere in the past, I knew that too, but I did get my memory mixed up. Doesn't matter. His numbers are still great overall and his skillset is rare and special.

[Skin]

5,2 turnovers per game. 12 in single game.
In 13 games 6 or more turnovers.

Show me the stat when he was responsible for the TO and when his teammates were responsible for the TO. We already know he was on a bad team and the eyeball test says his teammates muffed up a lot of good opportunities.

BTW, do you weigh TOs when you judge guys like Lebron, Westbrook, Curry?

You wanted it - i deliver

"

On Tuesday night, No. 4 Oklahoma went into Kansas State and got whooped, 87-69, as Young shot 8-for-21 from the floor and turned the ball over 12 times. Against the Wildcats, Bruce Weber came up with a game-plan that was as simple as it was effective. They blitzed Young on every ball-screen and dribble-handoff, forcing the ball out of his hands before face-guarding him to try and prevent him from getting the ball back.

That came on the heels on committing nine turnovers against TCU over the weekend. He currently leads the country in turnovers – 5.2 per game, including 39 turnovers in his last five games – and it’s a result of the degree of difficulty of the plays that Young is trying to make; it’s almost as if he’s trying to get an assist, to make a highlight reel pass, on every possession, an issue that gets magnified by the number of layups opponents get off of those turnovers:

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/01/18/whats-wrong-with-trae-young-an-in-depth-look-at-how-defenses-are-adjusting-to-the-oklahoma-superstar/

rest of the article here, you have video clips, in ditail how his turnovers are lot of times product of his poor plays


his bad decisions where he was trapped by double team were all over espn and well documented, from game where he had 12 TOs

Watch on YouTube

there is also interesting video that goes in detail ,with almsot 100 000 clicks why Young will struggle in nba , mostly because clear lack of size

Watch on YouTube

If you want to magnify one game, then to be fair you need to acknowledge that he tied the NCAA record for assists in a game with 22. The dude lead the nation in assists being surrounded by a lack of talent.

I've heard size issues being brought up before and for the PG position size is one of the things least important.

[pepe1991]

Show me the stat when he was responsible for the TO and when his teammates were responsible for the TO. We already know he was on a bad team and the eyeball test says his teammates muffed up a lot of good opportunities.

BTW, do you weigh TOs when you judge guys like Lebron, Westbrook, Curry?

You wanted it - i deliver

"

On Tuesday night, No. 4 Oklahoma went into Kansas State and got whooped, 87-69, as Young shot 8-for-21 from the floor and turned the ball over 12 times. Against the Wildcats, Bruce Weber came up with a game-plan that was as simple as it was effective. They blitzed Young on every ball-screen and dribble-handoff, forcing the ball out of his hands before face-guarding him to try and prevent him from getting the ball back.

That came on the heels on committing nine turnovers against TCU over the weekend. He currently leads the country in turnovers – 5.2 per game, including 39 turnovers in his last five games – and it’s a result of the degree of difficulty of the plays that Young is trying to make; it’s almost as if he’s trying to get an assist, to make a highlight reel pass, on every possession, an issue that gets magnified by the number of layups opponents get off of those turnovers:

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2018/01/18/whats-wrong-with-trae-young-an-in-depth-look-at-how-defenses-are-adjusting-to-the-oklahoma-superstar/

rest of the article here, you have video clips, in ditail how his turnovers are lot of times product of his poor plays


his bad decisions where he was trapped by double team were all over espn and well documented, from game where he had 12 TOs

Watch on YouTube

there is also interesting video that goes in detail ,with almsot 100 000 clicks why Young will struggle in nba , mostly because clear lack of size

Watch on YouTube

If you want to magnify one game, then to be fair you need to acknowledge that he tied the NCAA record for assists in a game with 22. The dude lead the nation in assists being surrounded by a lack of talent.

I've heard size issues being brought up before and for the PG position size is one of the things least important.

I didn't focus on one game, it was just article that covered how he turns the ball over, since you said that you need proof that his teammates are not one to blame for TOs but him.

ESPN video went in depth about it, since that 12 turnovers is big 12 record in TO in single game by one player.

His 22 assists were fantastic. I have him going 6-9 in draft, i don't think he is terrible , i just don't view him as top 3 talent from a draft.

If he goes East he will face Simmons and Giannis ( and Lebron ) for years to come at PG so yea...size will be factor. In last video i posted that guy on youtube goes and tells size of all defenders that he faced during his worst games it looks like every time he had somebody over 6'3 he had issues. Average size for PG in nba is bit over 6'3 .

And i really have no will to argue, especially because there is huge chance that he won't even be drafted by Magic, so who cares right? If he goes here, i'll hope for best. If he goes somwhere else, i wish him nothing but best but i'll keep my eye on him to see how he stacks against nba level talents. We didn't see good PG prospect that translated well in years now. ( Simmons, but he isn't traditional PG and Murray, who isn't traditional PG himself )

[Skin]

Agree with Skin, I'd still gladly take Trae Young top 5. He's an offensive powerhouse. His shooting threat and ability to make plays for others would change any offense. Struggles and all, what he did as a 19 y/o freshman on a really bad roster was impressive. And this team needs a lot of things, but it currently has ZERO playmakers. Young ticks the mark of a shot-maker and playmaker. I really think he'd make things easier for guys like Isaac and Gordon.

Defense will always be a shortcoming for Young, but TBH, I'm less interested in my point guard being lockdown if he can be a superior offensive force nightly, like Kyrie, Lillard, Curry etc. I also believe that point guard defense is less and less valued (unless your Pat Beverly) in a league where star guards are going to beat a good defender 9/10 times.

There's definitely risk with picking him. But the Magic need a home run; no more singles. If the Magic are drafting 4-8, there aren't many other options in that range that I'm head over heels about. It's one thing if we're choosing between Ayton, Doncic, or even Bagley. But I really don't feel that great about Porter Jr.'s back, the idea of JJJ is more impressive than his actual production, you can talk me in to Bamba as a Gobert-like force but there are a surplus of bigs in the NBA, and Bridges is a nice, efficient 3 and D guy but I wish there were more of an off the dribble game to create for himself and others.

Yup. All true. Size and defense are less important at PG than any other position.

These guys eat each other up constantly. Westbrook takes it to Curry, Curry takes it to Westbrook... it's back and forth between the great ones... Paul, Kyrie, Wall, Dillard... Nobody bashes them for defense because that's not their main job. Marcus Smart, Patrick Beverly... good defenders... can't get starting gigs because their scoring and passing don't cut it. Elfrid Payton's size did nothing for him defensively. Not gonna start to make it a reason to make a case against Young.

[Statlanta]

If you expect the floor you won't be disappointed. It's the people projecting next Steph or next ATG PG that's killing him. Also the fact he didn't have hype before the season.

[Skin]

I didn't focus on one game, it was just article that covered how he turns the ball over, since you said that you need proof that his teammates are not one to blame for TOs but him.

ESPN video went in depth about it, since that 12 turnovers is big 12 record in TO in single game by one player.

His 22 assists were fantastic. I have him going 6-9 in draft, i don't think he is terrible , i just don't view him as top 3 talent from a draft.

If he goes East he will face Simmons and Giannis ( and Lebron ) for years to come at PG so yea...size will be factor. In last video i posted that guy on youtube goes and tells size of all defenders that he faced during his worst games it looks like every time he had somebody over 6'3 he had issues. Average size for PG in nba is bit over 6'3 .

And i really have no will to argue, especially because there is huge chance that he won't even be drafted by Magic, so who cares right? If he goes here, i'll hope for best. If he goes somwhere else, i wish him nothing but best but i'll keep my eye on him to see how he stacks against nba level talents. We didn't see good PG prospect that translated well in years now. ( Simmons, but he isn't traditional PG and Murray, who isn't traditional PG himself )

No, I didn't say he has no blame for TOs. I said show me the stat where he is to blame vs when it's his teammates to blame.

...and what are you talking about... he wouldn't face Lebron and Giannis... Point Guards don't typically guard Point Forwards. Lebron has always played next to a PG and Giannis plays with Bledsoe. When Fultz plays, Trae will be match up on him instead of Simmons.

He's the top PG in the draft and we have our biggest need there and none of the other teams in the Top 5 do. Plus, we're slipping out of the Top 5 as we speak. Why is there a huge chance we won't take him?

[fendilim]

For a record i have no will to make it another me vs Payton fans debate all over again where i spent like 5 months telling people how bad he is until they finally decided to open eyes. We will see what Young is . I belive he is new Thomas, player that gets offense but sucks so hard on defense that it makes him unplayable if your goal is ever leave first round. Time will tell. Just like it did with "biggest win share on Magic, guy who made some guy fall in love in basketball again " Payton.

I'll just laugh at people who never saw single min of Doncic and because they clicked on youtube clip of him they think they understand his impact on a game. Same people tend to belive that 30 ppg on 42% FG is good so ... yea.. Iverson is GOAT

Dude, you're destroying yourself.

42% FG is not bad at all considering he got to the line on those missed shots and made a secondary living at the FT line (8.6 FTA/Gm - 86% FT Shooter) and more especially since he took 10 3 pointers per game.

His .586 TS% is much more impressive.

Fyi missed shots on fouls don't get counted as attempts... the 42% is on clean attempts.

Loooooool

[BadMofoPimp]

Chris Paul is only 6'0". But, CP does play elite defense in his prime. The only crack I have against Trae Young is his defense. But, can't be much worse than Jameer after a few NBA seasons.

[zaymon]

Chris Paul is only 6'0". But, CP does play elite defense in his prime. The only crack I have against Trae Young is his defense. But, can't be much worse than Jameer after a few NBA seasons.

If he can position himself in the right places, be smart and have enough stamina he could be average.

[PennytoShaq]

Trae Young is a pretty hard worker on defense. And that is saying a lot considering how much effort he has to put in on offense. Defense is really about work, and he fights through screens and is always trying to contest shots. I don't have a huge issue with his defense most likely not being great as long as he puts the work in and consistently and does not kill us in the pick and roll game.

[Furinkazan]

Dude, you're destroying yourself.

42% FG is not bad at all considering he got to the line on those missed shots and made a secondary living at the FT line (8.6 FTA/Gm - 86% FT Shooter) and more especially since he took 10 3 pointers per game.

His .586 TS% is much more impressive.

Fyi missed shots on fouls don't get counted as attempts... the 42% is on clean attempts.

Loooooool