Luka Doncic Part III

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Mirotic12
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#561 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:33 pm

Grits n Gravy wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
AJ3 wrote:I'm not sure how PIR Works but him missing those 3 3P lowers it right?


(Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks + Fouls Drawn) - (Missed Field Goals + Missed Free Throws + Turnovers + Shots Rejected + Fouls Committed)

Here is a site that gives it in an example form:

https://captaincalculator.com/sports/basketball/performance-index-rating-calculator/

It's a super overrated stat. I have no idea why something like EuroLeague is still so stuck on it.

PIR is basically the old original Tendex stat from the 1960s, minus any weighting measures. So a non weighted version basically of the first advanced stat. Back in the 80s, the Celtics used to basically use PIR like the old hockey plus minus stat (everything good = +1, everything bad = -1).

For some reason Spanish League decided at some point that this was the most important basketball stat in existence, and now it's completely taken over European basketball. It really makes no sense for why a player's worth or value is based on this in Europe, but whatever.

LOL why in the **** is having your shot blocked counted? It's already counting the missed shot right? Who cares if your shot is blocked.


Yeah, that's one of the dumbest things about the stat. Along with it being a supposed advanced stat, but it gives absolutely no weighting at all to any stats, and instead counts each thing equally as either a plus 1, or a minus 1.

Even in the original form of the stat, from back in the 60s, which was called tendex, it used a weighted formula. Something PIR removed from the stat's equation. So for example, PIR becomes very strongly skewed in favor of power forwards and centers. And then when considering also how strict FIBA's rules are for assists, it becomes fairly biased against play makers.
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Re: What is your personal big board right now? 

Post#562 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:57 pm

As to this argument from some here that you judge a player's shooting ability solely by their shooting percentage, and that the NBA 3 point line being further than the one in EuroLeague, automatically means a player will shoot a lower percentage in the NBA....

About 3 years ago, they did a survey in Europe, where they asked the coaches in EuroLeague and EuroCup, and also major national leagues, who was the best shooter in Europe.

The result was Navarro and Spanoulis, and I can't remember who was first and second, but they got together something like 88% of the entire vote, with all other players getting 12% combined.

If you were to look at just percentages, and base everything about shooting, solely on a percentage, with zero context, then neither of them would even have gotten a single vote. But yeah, amazingly, head coaches actually understand that raw stats with zero context can be rather useless.

I never take posts seriously, when they rate a player's shooting ability solely on their shooting percentages. It's ridiculous, because it assumes the shots of every player happen in an equal kind of vacuum or something, with all shots being of exact same type and circumstance, which is just ridiculous.

For a good EuroLeague example (since Doncic is in EuroLeague), take Nick Calathes, a horrible shooter (maybe the worst guard in Europe in terms of shooting), and he is shooting almost every single 3 pointer being left wide open by the defense. Because he can't shoot, so they leave him wide open. His nickname through most of Europe is even "Nick The Brick".

But then take someone like Spanoulis, who is trapped and doubled the whole game, and almost never gets an open look, or catch and shoot. By percentages strictly, they would look not much different as shooters, when in reality, it's one of the best shooters in Europe, versus one of the worst shooters in Europe.

A person judging solely by percentages, would claim they were not much different, in terms of shooting.

Same with NBA comparisons....someone could claim Rubio or Giannis wasn't that much of a worse 3 point shooter than Kobe, going simply by percentage. When in reality, Kobe was light years a better shooter, but he could be framed as being a bad shooter, simply with this "shooting ability is based only on percentages".

You simply can't argue with someone that doesn't understand something like that, and that simply looks at shooting percentage to judge.

The same with the 3 point line distance. It's a totally illogical argument, that simply because the top of the key distance is further in NBA, that it means a lower percentage of shots will be made. First, the distance is virtually the same on the sides of the court. It's really only at the top of the key that there is a difference.

Second, that further distance at the top of the key, allows for more floor spacing, making offense and screen roll easier in the NBA. And it also makes it harder for the defense to recover and to close out to shooters, which means the looks are more open, with the shooters having more time and space to shoot. These factors easily mitigate a difference of 15 inches, which is basically just slightly more than one step of distance anyway.

In reality, it's easier to have the further 3 point line. It gives more spacing for offense, and it gives more space and time to the shooter. And again, the distance is basically the same at the sides. Never mind it's about a step of distance anyway, which is almost a non-factor for professional level players anyway.

So to argue that somehow the difference in the 3 point line, means Doncic will shoot worse in the NBA, is really 100% pure speculation and personal conjecture. There is nothing factual in such comments - it's just pure personal opinion.

That would only matter if the players were just practice shooting in the gym, or it was a 3 point contest or something like that, or if the leagues had exactly the same rules and defense, which they don't.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#563 » by lambchop » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:02 pm

Doncic is a good shooter and will be just fine in the nba. A lot of his shots are contested at the end of the shot clock, step backs etc.
So many people who attain the heights of power in this culture—celebrities, for instance—have to make a show of false humility and modesty, as if they got as far as they did by accident and not by ego or ambition.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#564 » by WalterBenjamin » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:14 pm

Alatan wrote:
WalterBenjamin wrote:Do I overrate how he dribbles the ball?! I don't see many guys his height that dribble the ball as good as he does in the NBA. Top 3-4 ballhandler at his size.


The more important question is is he a good ballhandler for his desired position of primary ballhandler and i would say no. He is average. Maybe even below average if you account for his speed with the ball in half court.

There is no primary ballhandler position. It's a role. Is LeBron a primary ballhandler. Yes he is. Does TJ McConell dribble the ball better than him. Yes he does And you wouldn't say that it's a detterent to LeBron in any way.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#565 » by Alatan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:45 pm

WalterBenjamin wrote:
Alatan wrote:
WalterBenjamin wrote:Do I overrate how he dribbles the ball?! I don't see many guys his height that dribble the ball as good as he does in the NBA. Top 3-4 ballhandler at his size.


The more important question is is he a good ballhandler for his desired position of primary ballhandler and i would say no. He is average. Maybe even below average if you account for his speed with the ball in half court.

There is no primary ballhandler position. It's a role. Is LeBron a primary ballhandler. Yes he is. Does TJ McConell dribble the ball better than him. Yes he does And you wouldn't say that it's a detterent to LeBron in any way.


LeBron is the GOAT at attacking and finishing at the rim with almost no dribbling moves thanks to his immense strength, size, athleticism and great touch around the rim. He doesnt need to dribble to create advantage because once he gets a head of steam he can finish over anyone. That forces defenders to rotate or guard him close, opening up the lanes for his facilitating. Can the same be said for Doncic?
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#566 » by BlueSan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:50 pm

No it can not
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#567 » by WalterBenjamin » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:53 pm

Alatan wrote:
LeBron is the GOAT at attacking and finishing at the rim with almost no dribbling moves thanks to his immense strength, size, athleticism and great touch around the rim. He doesnt need to dribble to create advantage because once he gets a head of steam he can finish over anyone. That forces defenders to rotate or guard him close, opening up the lanes for his facilitating. Can the same be said for Doncic?

Of course. That doesn't negate my question. How many wings are better in your opinion?!

I am trying to find someone dissuading me from beinig to high on Doncic. :D Looking for reasons outside of those I can find my self.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#568 » by BlueSan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:06 pm

Well.

1. His character can lift the kid or it can be also his downfall
2. He needs to get his body in NBA like shape if not again it will be his downfall
3. He needs to improve his ball handling by a lot, his ball handling is not at a high enough level and in the NBA that will show fast if he doesnt improve
4. He needs to improve his shot decision making especially for 3 pointers
5. He needs to work on his defensive awarness, leg work, staying with his man...
6. He needs to get better or rather do more drives at the rim when he will be in NBA
7. He needs to be a full pro like he is now, but his father was not, he was also talented but then started the off court antics, he needs to not fall into that trap.

Enough reasons for you?
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#569 » by Alatan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:06 pm

WalterBenjamin wrote:
Alatan wrote:
LeBron is the GOAT at attacking and finishing at the rim with almost no dribbling moves thanks to his immense strength, size, athleticism and great touch around the rim. He doesnt need to dribble to create advantage because once he gets a head of steam he can finish over anyone. That forces defenders to rotate or guard him close, opening up the lanes for his facilitating. Can the same be said for Doncic?

Of course. That doesn't negate my question. How many wings are better in your opinion?!

I am trying to find someone dissuading me from beinig to high on Doncic. :D Looking for reasons outside of those I can find my self.


Well, what i was trying to explain is that if a player is not an athletic freak with great touch around the rim he needs to really on his ballhandling to create for both himself and others.

As for dissuading you i can only point out the thing i dont like about Doncic.

He has no athletic advantage over most of the NBA if not having a disadvantage against many.
His ballhandling is not good enough for a primary ballhandler. In other words he cant create through his dribble/ speed combination.
His shooting form is suboptimal and his shots are not ''clean'' hits while his misses can be totally off. I doubt he becomes an elite shooter.
He relies to much on fakes, stepbacks and other difficult shots that are going to be hard to pull off on the next level of competition.
He is a below the rim player in traffic.
His defense is not good.
He has a lot experience against better competition witch means he is a more developed prospect. That reduces his upside.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#570 » by WalterBenjamin » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:12 pm

Alatan wrote:
Well, what i was trying to explain is that if a player is not an athletic freak with great touch around the rim he needs to really on his ballhandling to create for both himself and others.

As for dissuading you i can only point out the thing i dont like about Doncic.

He has no athletic advantage over most of the NBA if not having a disadvantage against many.
His ballhandling is not good enough for a primary ballhandler. In other words he cant create through his dribble/ speed combination.
His shooting form is suboptimal and his shots are not ''clean'' hits while his misses can be totally off. I doubt he becomes an elite shooter.
He relies to much on fakes, stepbacks and other difficult shots that are going to be hard to pull off on the next level of competition.
He is a below the rim player in traffic.
His defense is not good.
He has a lot experience against better competition witch means he is a more developed prospect. That reduces his upside.

Yes i understand all that. But seing Lonzo being really effective in some instances of the game i got to be really positive on Doncic. Better than Ball in all aspects of the game. Would you not agree?
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#571 » by Alatan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:17 pm

WalterBenjamin wrote:
Alatan wrote:
Well, what i was trying to explain is that if a player is not an athletic freak with great touch around the rim he needs to really on his ballhandling to create for both himself and others.

As for dissuading you i can only point out the thing i dont like about Doncic.

He has no athletic advantage over most of the NBA if not having a disadvantage against many.
His ballhandling is not good enough for a primary ballhandler. In other words he cant create through his dribble/ speed combination.
His shooting form is suboptimal and his shots are not ''clean'' hits while his misses can be totally off. I doubt he becomes an elite shooter.
He relies to much on fakes, stepbacks and other difficult shots that are going to be hard to pull off on the next level of competition.
He is a below the rim player in traffic.
His defense is not good.
He has a lot experience against better competition witch means he is a more developed prospect. That reduces his upside.

Yes i understand all that. But seing Lonzo being really effective in some instances of the game i got to be really positive on Doncic. Better than Ball in all aspects of the game. Would you not agree?


Well considering i think that Ball is a complete joke of an NBA player and a total bust, i dont see it as evidence that Doncic will be a star.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#572 » by bwgood77 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:31 pm

Alatan wrote:
WalterBenjamin wrote:
Alatan wrote:
LeBron is the GOAT at attacking and finishing at the rim with almost no dribbling moves thanks to his immense strength, size, athleticism and great touch around the rim. He doesnt need to dribble to create advantage because once he gets a head of steam he can finish over anyone. That forces defenders to rotate or guard him close, opening up the lanes for his facilitating. Can the same be said for Doncic?

Of course. That doesn't negate my question. How many wings are better in your opinion?!

I am trying to find someone dissuading me from beinig to high on Doncic. :D Looking for reasons outside of those I can find my self.


Well, what i was trying to explain is that if a player is not an athletic freak with great touch around the rim he needs to really on his ballhandling to create for both himself and others.

As for dissuading you i can only point out the thing i dont like about Doncic.

He has no athletic advantage over most of the NBA if not having a disadvantage against many.
His ballhandling is not good enough for a primary ballhandler. In other words he cant create through his dribble/ speed combination.
His shooting form is suboptimal and his shots are not ''clean'' hits while his misses can be totally off. I doubt he becomes an elite shooter.
He relies to much on fakes, stepbacks and other difficult shots that are going to be hard to pull off on the next level of competition.
He is a below the rim player in traffic.
His defense is not good.
He has a lot experience against better competition witch means he is a more developed prospect. That reduces his upside.


That's quite ridiculous.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#573 » by Alatan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:33 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Alatan wrote:His ballhandling is not good enough for a primary ballhandler. In other words he cant create through his dribble/ speed combination.


That's quite ridiculous.


Is it?
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#574 » by WalterBenjamin » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:37 pm

Alatan wrote:
Well considering i think that Ball is a complete joke of an NBA player and a total bust, i dont see it as evidence that Doncic will be a star.

Just based on shooting or?
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#575 » by Alatan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:46 pm

WalterBenjamin wrote:
Alatan wrote:
Well considering i think that Ball is a complete joke of an NBA player and a total bust, i dont see it as evidence that Doncic will be a star.

Just based on shooting or?


I dont want to derail this thread so il try to keep it short.

Apart from being a complete liability as a scorer, meaning not just OPEN 3 point shooting but complete lack of mid range game and finishing, Ball is bad at creating his shot, penetration, free throw drawing and free throw shooting. Because of his lack of shooting and finishing ability he is useless of ball. His playmaking is only average and the reason he gets 7 assists a game is because he is a pass only player that creates weak or no advantages on his passes. Rebounding as a guard is a nice wrinkle but is not that important at all and his rebounding numbers are inflated by his team rebounding scheme and playing next to Lopez. His team defense is good but is man defense is bad. His team defense is his only redeeming quality and thats why i think he wont end up in China but could be a backup.

He is the same type of player as Marcus Smart, Ricky Rubio, Payton and Rondo but worse and all those guys are borderline starters or bench players.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#576 » by UcanUwill » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:04 am

Alatan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Alatan wrote:His ballhandling is not good enough for a primary ballhandler. In other words he cant create through his dribble/ speed combination.


That's quite ridiculous.


Is it?


His handle is great. He can slide around multiple defenders with his low dribble powers.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#577 » by Rn5ho » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:51 am

I don't watch Philly games, but I'm curious - since there are claims that Doncic can't be the primary ballhandler - how does his handle compare to Simmons? From what I understand, Simmons is primary ballhandler for Philly and I'd be surprised if his handle is better than Doncic's.

I'm also surprised to see claims that his shooting is sub-optimal, when this has been one of the things people/scouts were always saying is great about him and with tons of potential, should just get faster release, but stroke and technique are great.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#578 » by BlueSan » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:00 am

One more thing about Doncic. Since we have kind of a negative atmosphere in the air lately. This guy his 3rd thread already, so he is clearly being talked about loads more then other players... why do you think this is?

I think the answer is clear enough
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#579 » by UcanUwill » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:34 am

BlueSan wrote:One more thing about Doncic. Since we have kind of a negative atmosphere in the air lately. This guy his 3rd thread, so he is clearly being talking about loads more then other players... why do you think this is?

I think the answer is clear enough


He is being talked about because he has numerous Euro fanboys honestly. High profile Euros always gets talked about here. Another reason is that he is on 80 something game schedule, so he plays every other day, where college players play far less games.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#580 » by SportsGuy8 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:48 am

It's at least 5th thread actually, as numerous got locked before they reached the official closure at 100 pages.

Most fanboys exist for a reason, though. He's arguably the best teenager Europe has seen and miles ahead of basically all other European lottery prospects over the past few decades.

It's hard for people unfamiliar with the Euroleague to understand just how special it is what he's been doing. Again, Hezonja & Rubio averaged less than 6ppg in their final seasons in Europe and were top5 picks. Bender averaged like 2 and was 4th pick. :lol:

Doncic's threads have also been used for many heated NCAA vs. Euroleague vs. NBA "debates". That's also the main reason why several of his threads got locked.
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