The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[TFK]

The beauty is they won’t be asking him to play the minutes they expected of him back in preseason. They simply want him to come off the bench and provide what the team lacks... a shot creator. If it works, they go from scary team nobody wants to play in the playoffs to “holy ****, this team could actually compete in the ECF this year”

[LakersSoul]

Here you go to all the Lonzo lovers.

Watch on YouTube

[PierceFan4ever]

Fun duo between Tatum and Jackson. Each scored 23 points and both seemed to play with a little edge. Rookie class worth the hype

[_Joker]

In the AFL the equivalent of the rookie of the year - the 'AFL Rising Star' - has a good way to classify the eligible players:

A player has to be under 21 years old as of 01 January that season, and cannot have played more than 10 games in total. Our season goes for 22 games + finals.

So something similar could potentially be adopted, with an age limit cap and also a games-played cap. So if a player is injured, or does not play much if at all during his first season, then they could still be eligible the following season.

[3toheadmelo]

studs

Watch on YouTube

[QPR]

In the AFL the equivalent of the rookie of the year - the 'AFL Rising Star' - has a good way to classify the eligible players:

A player has to be under 21 years old as of 01 January that season, and cannot have played more than 10 games in total. Our season goes for 22 games + finals.

So something similar could potentially be adopted, with an age limit cap and also a games-played cap. So if a player is injured, or does not play much if at all during his first season, then they could still be eligible the following season.

Or we could just accept that you are a rookie if you haven't played an NBA game prior to the season. It's a complete non-issue being made into an issue because Mitchell is likely to miss out on the award.

[Wilfried]

Ben Simmons has a 4.45/1 ass/TO ratio in his last 9 games (almost 11 assists per game)

[KillaMayo]

I don't know if it's just me but in my mind Fultz made a pretty good argument for ROY with today's game. Definitely top 3 IMO, edging Tatum by a fingernail. It's still a close race though
1. Simmons
2. Mitchell
3. Fultz
4. Tatum

[Theocy]

I don't know if it's just me but in my mind Fultz made a pretty good argument for ROY with today's game. Definitely top 3 IMO, edging Tatum by a fingernail. It's still a close race though
1. Simmons
2. Mitchell
3. Fultz
4. Tatum

Yeah true that. 10 points and 8 assists. Played 4 games in the season. Clearly ROY material. Hell i would go all the way and say he made a statement for MVP

1. Fultz
2. Harden



3. Anyone else

[nurseryc]

I don't know if it's just me but in my mind Fultz made a pretty good argument for ROY with today's game. Definitely top 3 IMO, edging Tatum by a fingernail. It's still a close race though
1. Simmons
2. Mitchell
3. Fultz
4. Tatum

You sound over tired. Did you have a big day at kindergarten?

[LakersSoul]

Ben Simmons has a 4.45/1 ass/TO ratio in his last 9 games (almost 11 assists per game)

Crazy numbers for BS... However, over the whole season:

BS has a 2.29 assist to TO ratio for the year.
Lonzo has a 2.81 assist to TO ratio for the year.

[RB34]

Ben Simmons has a 4.45/1 ass/TO ratio in his last 9 games (almost 11 assists per game)

Crazy numbers for BS... However, over the whole season:

BS has a 2.29 assist to TO ratio for the year.
Lonzo has a 2.81 assist to TO ratio for the year.

Hasn’t Lonzo missed 20+ games?

[Dundalis]

my simple question specificaly to Utah Jazz fans....

if Bryan Colangelo this summer calls your GM and proposes a straight up trade , Utah gets Ben Simmons and the Sixers receive Donovan Mitchell? Would you agree to it ?? Has nothing to do with Rookie of the Year, but would just like to see your answers.

Im not a Jazz fan but if is was i would say no. Simmons fans think that Simmons is more talented because he is a 6 10 pg but the thing is that he is very difficult to build around because he needs the ball in his hands and a ton of shooting to be effective. Mitchell, on the other hand, can play on any team and be great.

Apart from facilitating (witch is hindered by his lack of offensive threats to open up space and lanes) and rebounding (witch is easily replaceable by role players) Simmons has no advantages over Mitchell.
Stats put Simmons as a better defender than Mitchell but i think that the stats are skewed because of Simmons rebounding role and weak defensive backups. From what ive seen of Simmons, as big as he is, he is not much of a rim protector so he basically guards 1-3. Same as Mitchell. And they are both good at it.

On the other hand Mithcell is a much better shooter, shot creator and offball player witch helps his team in a way stats dont present.

If you put Simmons on the Jazz or other teams that dont have tons of shooting he wouldnt be half as effective as he is now. If you want to add another star player that needs the ball in his hands Simmons wouldnt be half as effective.

I also think that Simmons' game is easy to gameplan for. Start defending him at around 16 feet from the basket. Defend the pass and make him attack the rim. Paddle back and contest at the rim. Force him to to his left hand and let him shoot his running hooks. If it is the case, we will see in the playoffs.

The funny thing is the fact you don't know that defenders consistently do exactly this. Unless the defender gets help they don't have the speed or the strength to prevent penetration, and when he looks to actually go to the hole rather than pass he gets right to the basket often for a layup or dunk, because he's a freight train with a head of steam that will run people over. Not to mention a 6'10 guy with elite passing skills that gets penetration will make angles to find guys if the offensive movement is good enough. But asking guys not to help will result in Simmons going straight to the hole play after play.

Yeah playoffs will be a massive test, because the defense and the defenders will be better, but it'll be a test for Mitchell too for the same reason.

As for what you've seen of Simmons, it's probably not much, he rolls through 1-5 whoever needs to be switched onto. It's not who he guards consistently, because that would absolutely be perimeter players, it's the fact he's proven he can guard 1-5 and almost never look overmatched in on ball defense. He's not a rim protector, so his help defense on the interior isn't really there, but his man on man defense inside against all but the largest of bigs is pretty damn good, and he can do everything at a high level defensively on the perimeter. So, not the same as Mitchell at all, because if Mitchell gets stuck inside on a big through rotations, he's not going to fare well. You can play Simmons as a big or small in a big or small lineup. The matchups from a defensive perspective using him are almost infinite, and teams have already spoken about the nightmare gameplanning for him not just offensively, but defensively. There are very few players you can say that about in the NBA. Simmons defensive versatility is incredibly rare.

Again with the minimizing passing and rebounding. Plenty of role players you can get to create off the ball movement, with great shooting too. 76ers have plenty of those. So your put down of rebounding as replaceable applies no less to shooting and off ball movement. So I guess the only relevant attribute is shot creation. Which absolutely the 76ers need. We'll see if Simmons can develop his shot over the years like Magic did, but if you actually watch him throughout a game offensively, he could score 20 ppg simply by looking to be more consistently aggressive (ala Giannis) and score on his drives more rather than looking to pass as well as finishing better at the rim (which players tend to improve on with experience). He could also actually work on adding some real post moves, given he constantly looks for entry passes inside when he's off the ball. These are things that are almost certainly going to improve in year 2 and 3. We'll see how the jumper develops, but there's not many players I'd take over a 20/10/10 point guard who can defend any position, even without a reliable jumper. And that to me is worst case scenario for Simmons in his prime.

[cl2117]

WHAT A NIGHT FOR ROOKIES! GOD DAMN.

We finally got to see the top 4 picks from 2017 play last night and they were all pretty damn impressive. I've been watching the replays all morning.

Fultz- I thought he was actually just OK and that stat line was misleading, but he showed glimpses of why he was the #1 pick. His shot still looks a little funky and he's got to work out what he can get away with in the NBA (which is why I think he got swatted so much), but his speed hasn't changed and his ability to get to the rack/in the paint was impressive. The 8 assists is pretty drastically inflated, but he did show he could handle the ball well (only 1 turnover on the first possession and then clean from there on out) and that he'd be a willing facilitator (pair him with JJ all day). He had a spinning layup that he missed, but on which the move he made literally made me stand up. Great to finally see him.

Ball- OOOOO boy that Ball boy balled out last night. His shot is still one of the ugliest things I've seen on a basketball court, but when he's not bricking 9/10 threes and can get some of that mid-range stuff falling, I can appreciate the Jason Kidd comparisons. Ball is actually one of my favorite type of players. I've always loved guys like Kidd, Rubio, Rondo, Jason Williams. Ball is in that mold. It's hard not to enjoy watching him play. I love the steals in the backcourt, the long passes, the hustle for boards, the defense and the occasionally ugly shot that banks in (and I don't think he means to). He's still a rookie and I'm not going to waste time prognosticating on his future, I'm just going to enjoy the show he puts on (good or bad).

Tatum- This kid is legit. I was saying it a couple pages back, but you let this kid take 18 shots a game and he's going to give you 20+ points and that's just what happened last night. He does end up resigning himself to his long mid-range game, but he's MONEY from his spots. His stroke is soooo smooth and his ability to get to the rack is hugely underrated. He's got crazy length that makes up for him not being the quickest guy and allows him to turn the corner when it looks like he has no shot. He's got superstar potential with his ability to rise up and drain contested shots. That's a 4th quarter killer in the making. I'd like to see him round out his game better (he should get getting a couple more boards and I think he can create for others better off of the dribble), but I'll settle for elite shooting and defense right now.

Jackson- Josh was the most athletic of the bunch from last night and that's saying something. I've long said that he reminds me of Jaylen Brown: elite athleticism, but a questionable jumper. He looked better than Brown last night. His scoring is coming along nicely, good to see him get more consistent on that front (7 straight games with 15+ points). He played some great D on Tatum and then turned around and scored against Tatum playing great D. Was an amazing duel to watch at the start of the game. I can't say enough about his athleticism though, that's what really shown through last night. Basically like Ball and Fultz, if this guy gets consistent with his shooting, watch the **** out.

While I'm writing a novel of a post there are 2 other guys I wanted to point out, one good and one bad.

Ntkilina- I was going to say he doesn't have flashy stats, but he does. His PnR defense is ELITE: currently #2 PnR defender in the league (behind Lou Williams and in front of Holiday and Paul). He's going to fly under the radar because defense isn't as sexy as offense, but this is a real bright spot for the Knicks. I haven't watched much of the Knicks this year, but when I've watched Frank I've been pleasantly surprised. I'm rooting for the kid.

Kennard- I've been dropping his name in here occasionally due to his consistent shooting from 3, but now I gotta go in the other direction and call him out. I watched the bulk of the LAL/DET game and was disappointed with his hustle. I felt like he was more than content sitting in the background and waiting to launch a 3 than chasing down loose balls. The thing that really grinded my gears was when Lonzo got a cheeky steal and started heading uncontested to the basket, Luke just kind of let him go. He resigned himself to that being a made bucket. Luke you're not good enough to not hustle on every single possession. Lonzo was long striding to the hoop for an easy dunk, Kennard could have at least made him rush it a little. I probably wouldn't have noticed if he had 4/5 from 3 instead of 1/5, but that's the whole point, you're not good enough to be laying in the cut. You gotta hustle every possession.

[Wilfried]

Im not a Jazz fan but if is was i would say no. Simmons fans think that Simmons is more talented because he is a 6 10 pg but the thing is that he is very difficult to build around because he needs the ball in his hands and a ton of shooting to be effective. Mitchell, on the other hand, can play on any team and be great.

Well, that 'ton of shooting' is about the easiest (and cheapest) thing to find in the NBA (look at Bellinelli and Ersan). Don't need to get nervous, we will be fine.

And if you want to build around Mitchell, you will need length and a good defensive point guard to mask his defficiencies too.
Which the Utah Jazz have btw.

I also think that Simmons' game is easy to gameplan for. Start defending him at around 16 feet from the basket. Defend the pass and make him attack the rim. Paddle back and contest at the rim. Force him to to his left hand and let him shoot his running hooks. If it is the case, we will see in the playoffs.

We will see indeed, but if it's that easy, why aren't teams doing it.
Simmons is the type of player that can impact games without scoring. That's to a lot lesser extent the case with Donovan Mitchell, who I really, really like btw.

But all the stats tell there's a reasonable gap between the two.

[_Joker]

In the AFL the equivalent of the rookie of the year - the 'AFL Rising Star' - has a good way to classify the eligible players:

A player has to be under 21 years old as of 01 January that season, and cannot have played more than 10 games in total. Our season goes for 22 games + finals.

So something similar could potentially be adopted, with an age limit cap and also a games-played cap. So if a player is injured, or does not play much if at all during his first season, then they could still be eligible the following season.

Or we could just accept that you are a rookie if you haven't played an NBA game prior to the season. It's a complete non-issue being made into an issue because Mitchell is likely to miss out on the award.

Yeah, that's a fair bit simpler.

[QPR]

In the AFL the equivalent of the rookie of the year - the 'AFL Rising Star' - has a good way to classify the eligible players:

A player has to be under 21 years old as of 01 January that season, and cannot have played more than 10 games in total. Our season goes for 22 games + finals.

So something similar could potentially be adopted, with an age limit cap and also a games-played cap. So if a player is injured, or does not play much if at all during his first season, then they could still be eligible the following season.

Or we could just accept that you are a rookie if you haven't played an NBA game prior to the season. It's a complete non-issue being made into an issue because Mitchell is likely to miss out on the award.

Yeah, that's a fair bit simpler.

I do like the concept of the rising star award, but that is often won by someone who has been in an AFL system for 1-2 years beforehand.

[SmartWentCrazy]

That Jackson-Tatum duel was fun. Those guys are both gunna be a problem for this league one day.

It was nice to see Lonzo have a great game, too. Hes been crazy to watch this season— his peaks are incredibly high and his valleys are increcibly low. Ive tried to stay even keel on him, but the high variance of his play makes it tough on both ends of the spectrum.

[stitches]

I really like Fultz, hopefully he overcomes his yips. He's such a smooth and skilled player. I love his talent. A lot of his game is predicated on his jumpshot and if he manages to get back to Washington level, he will be trouble in the league.

[Litany]

Question for people who have not read all the Fultz articles...why are people so skeptical that he can get back to what made him so appealing as the top pick? Is it just some stupid narrative that isn't fair or is there something to legitimately be concerned about? It was nice to see him out there...I'm sure this has been the longest year for him trying to get back. Cool surprise when i tuned into the games.