Luka Doncic Part III

[Donka_fan]

Hybrid of Bird and Pistol Pete, but I'll settle for a bit better than Harden
As I said his work ethic and will to win are something the NBA has yet to see from a white EURO.
You'll see soon enough.

You guys are hilarious
And I think he actually is 6ft 9 or 6 ft 10. Larry Bird height.

[Nikson]

Hybrid of Bird and Pistol Pete, but I'll settle for a bit better than Harden
As I said his work ethic and will to win are something the NBA has yet to see from a white EURO.
You'll see soon enough.

You guys are hilarious
And I think he actually is 6ft 9 or 6 ft 10. Larry Bird height.

That’s my boy!

[Johnny Firpo]

there is absolutely nothing in common between Doncic and Harden or Klay Thompson.He has nowhere the first step or ball handling of Harden or quick release and defensive ability of Thompson.But ppl are desperate to find some relatively unathletic superstars to compare Doncic to,because saying that he's the new Gallinari or Turkoglu,which he is, doesnt sound that exciting for a potential #1 pick

Peja, you can't be that daft... You have to compare him to 19-year-old Harden and Klay Thompson. Why in the world would you compare him to 27-year-old Harden and 27-year-old Klay, players already in their peak?

[RookieStar]

Hybrid of Bird and Pistol Pete, but I'll settle for a bit better than Harden
As I said his work ethic and will to win are something the NBA has yet to see from a white EURO.
You'll see soon enough.

You guys are hilarious
And I think he actually is 6ft 9 or 6 ft 10. Larry Bird height.

Are you a troll account or are you starting the annual Anthony "Magic" Randolph season where players magically increase their heights to 2-3inches and either a.) gain 10-15 lbs of muscle or b.) lose 10-15 lbs of fat depending on the player.

Seriously, I like Doncic as much as the next tanking team fan but BSing his height or falsely hyping him up just makes even fans like me hate. But to each his own.

P.S. I actually like the prime Hedo comparison. Hedo, if he wasn't overshadowed by prime DH and probably the best stretch PF outside of Dirk at the time in Lewis, would have been an all-star with his triple-double threat.

[Mirotic12]

Yeah because those guards like Exum, Rubio, Hezonja and soon to be Nkinnia never pan out as expected regardless of skin tone, that makes no difference or has any barring. Maybe it's a product of never playing against elite level competition in their youth, i don't know. but it does not seem to impact the bigs as much as evidenced by Dirk (white), Giannis, dad Sabonis (white), Jokic (white), and Porzingas (white). It's a factor GM's should be mindful of when taking someone so high, if we were talking picks 7 and beyond, sure, take Doncic no worries.

That's why I brought up Ingles and Turk, you can take those guys ideally with mid/late firsts, but even late lottery. You don't take them with a top 5, let alone top 2 pick when not ONE has panned out as of 2018. And like you pointed out, Ingles is a good shooter, so heck he's better than Doncic.

As nice as Ingles is, how many fans would be happy having suffered through a horrible tanking season only to end up with a player like Ingles? As a Mavs fan, I wouldn't and I'd guess as a Suns fan, nor would you.

You make it sound like the NBA and European club basketball has existed for like 5 years. You keep saying this same stuff over and over, despite that we already numerous times listed a whole bunch of "Eastern Hemisphere" guards that were decent NBA players, good NBA players, played better in NBA than they did in Europe, etc.

But you keep pretending none of that ever happened, and only mention a few examples from just recent years.

Again...........

Marko Jaric - Was a starter in NBA, was just as good in NBA as he was in Europe. Not a bust.

Gordan Giricek - Was a starter in NBA, was probably better in NBA than he was win Europe. Not a bust.

Goran Dragic - starter in NBA, and a good player (has been in 3rd team NBA once, and an all-star once). Personally, for me he's better in NBA than he is in Europe, although some people want to count one 9 game tournament that he had in his whole international career as proof otherwise - regardless, he was certainly better in NBA than he was in EuroLeague specifically. Not a bust. Also, when he played in Europe during the NBA lockout, he wasn't as good as Doncic is now in the same leagues.

Tomas Satoransky - Since he has been starting in the NBA, he's had a bit better production in the NBA (11/4/6), than he did in EuroLeague (9/3/4 in his best EuroLeague season). Not a bust.

Jose Calderon - Was a starter in NBA. He was way better in NBA than he was in Europe. Not a bust.

Ricky Rubio - a starter in NBA (you keep using him as an example of a failure), yet he undeniably performs better in NBA than he did in EuroLeague, or than he ever has with Spain's senior national team. Not a bust.

Alexey Shved - He was a rotation player in NBA, and he could have stayed in the NBA if he wanted to. But he got a huge amount of money in Russia. He's had NBA offers since, it just can't compete with his Russian contract. He's been better in Europe, than he was in the NBA, but then again, in his team in Europe, he is a first option, and as a 3rd option on the Knicks, he wasn't all that bad really (averaging 15/5/4 for the Knicks). Not a bust.

Alex Abrines - he's basically got the same role in the NBA that he had in Barca in EuroLeague. Pretty much no worse an NBA player at all than what he was in Europe. He was a catch and shoot role player with good athleticism in Barca, and that's what he is in the NBA. Not a bust.

Rudy Fernandez - Another so-called "bust". But he was a rotation player in NBA for 4 years, and he could have kept playing in the NBA, if he wanted to, but he went back to Spain for more money and personal issues (he was also offered NBA deals after he left for Spain). This one is kind of hard to quantify, since in Europe he's a small forward, and that's his natural position. But in NBA, he was a two guard. Really, look at his EuroLeague numbers - 11/3/3 for his career....playing out of position, and with some injury problems, he was a 4 year rotation player in NBA (again, not an actual bust at all, under any objective analysis).

Nicolas Batum - He's played a lot at SF, but he's also played at lot at SG, and is basically a 2/3. He's been a starter in NBA for years. He's also pretty much been better in NBA than he has with the French NT. Not a bust. Also, when he played in EuroLeague during the NBA lockout, he wasn't as good as Doncic is now.

Jiri Welsch - was a rotation player in NBA, even a starter at one point with the Celtics...he was miles better in NBA than he ever was in Europe. Hell, he spent most of his career in Europe in joke teams. Not a bust.

Tony Parker - had a very good NBA career, and he was really no more effective in Europe, than in NBA. At his best with France's national team, he was basically the same player he was on the Spurs. Was a starter for years, won 4 NBA championships, as a starter, and was Finals MVP once. Not a bust.

Bogdan Bogdanovic - seems to be doing fairly OK so far in NBA, as a rookie. Just about same numbers he had in EuroLeague. Not a bust.

Roko Ukic - he didn't do much in the NBA, despite some chances, but in reality, he didn't do much in Europe either. It's not like he was a bust either, because no one should have expected anything from him in NBA. He hasn't even established himself as a EuroLeague player since he left NBA, and has been playing mainly in 2nd and 3rd tier European leagues, even though he's a better player now, than when he was in NBA.

Sergio Rodriguez - fact is, he was a rotation player in NBA for 5 years, and could have played his whole career in NBA, if he wanted to, but he chose to leave the NBA twice, for more money in Europe. Another so-called "bust", but he averaged 8/5 last year in NBA...while he averages 14/5 right now in EuroLeague (in what is probably the best season he ever had in EuroLeague). Again, that's not actually "a bust" to anyone with sense and objectivity.

Sasha Vujacic - years as a rotation player in the NBA, he was miles and miles better in NBA than in Europe. Dude has been a flat out scrub every time he played in EuroLeague. Sure, he was a bad NBA player obviously, but the point is, he was an even worse EuroLeague player, yet somehow managed to stay in NBA for years, and even get consistent playing time. Not a bust.

Milos Teodosic - doing OK for a rookie, and with some injuries. Not a bust so far.

Beno Udrih - was a rotation player for years and years in NBA. He was way better in NBA than he was in Europe. One of those players NBA fans claimed would have "dominated" EuroLeague.....he averages an incredible 2.2 points and 1.1 assists this year in EuroLeague...not a bust.

Raul Lopez - he came into the NBA already with bad knees, after injuries, and was still a rotation player. His career after NBA in Europe, was basically about the same numbers he had in NBA and still with injury issues. Not a bust.

Sasha Pavlovic - he was a rotation player in NBA for quite a long time. Never did a thing in Europe, in club or national team play. Was awful in EuroLeague after he left NBA. Was one of those players NBA fans claimed would have "dominated" EuroLeague, yet was terrible there. Not a bust.

Drazen Petrovic - After getting benched for 2 years by Rick Adelman in Portland, he was averaging over 22 a game, and was in 3rd all NBA team at the time he died with the Nets. Not a bust.

Sarunas Jasikevicius - called a bust, but with the Pacers he was a rotation player, and had averages of 13/5 per 36 minutes (pretty similar to his EuroLeague numbers). His main problem was defense, but with today's NBA rules, he wouldn't have had anywhere near the same problems on defense. He was a better defender than Teodosic for example. This example of a "bust", isn't even a good one really, because when he got playing time, he had similar numbers on offense as in Europe. The defense issue again isn't the same now. With today's rules, he would just be another guard that provides no defense. He could have stayed in NBA, as he had an offer from the Cavs, but went back to Europe for more money. Not really a bust, if you objectively analyze it.

Juan Carlos Navarro - also called a bust for some reason, but he was a 6th man as a rookie, and averaged something like 13 points a game whenever he got 25 minutes of playing time (pretty much the same as his EuroLeague numbers). The Grizzlies and Lakers offered him full MLE contracts, which he turned down for personal and financial reasons. He could not have been that bad of a player, if 2 teams made full MLE offers, after a rookie season. If he stayed in NBA, he would have probably been a bigger version of Jason Terry. Another example of a "bust", that really wasn't actually a bust, with objective analysis.

Sasha Danilovic - was a decent rotation player in the NBA, you called him a scrub, but he was averaging 13 on a Miami team that made the playoffs, and 17 a game on a bad Dallas team (you said he was awful and sucked on Dallas). Not a bust.

Sarunas Marciulionis - he was probably one of the 2-3 best 6th men in NBA history, and he was better in NBA than he was in Europe. Not a bust.

Dennis Schroder - seems to be having no problems so far in NBA, is a starter, and has fairly good production. Not a bust.

Evan Fournier - same case as Schroder basically. Not a bust.

Marco Belinelli - he's been a rotation player in NBA for years now, and a was a starter for a couple years. Frankly, he's always been better in the NBA than he has been whenever he played for Italy's national team. Not a bust.

Nando de Colo - OK, I will grant you that his case qualifies as a bust. Considering his level in Europe, then what he did in NBA, and that he did get plenty of chances in NBA. Still, let's not pretend that he can't play in NBA. There is no doubt that he could be a rotation player in an NBA team that gave him a chance. So even in this case, where yes, you could qualify it as a "bust", it still is a player that can be a rotation player in NBA right now. I mean, he is absolutely for sure better than many current NBA players. And he's had NBA offers since he was in Russia. So even in some of these actual real bust examples, it does not mean what you are implying it means (not good enough to play in the NBA).


Also, they didn't originate from Europe, but Huertas, Delfino, Prigioni and Ginobili made their basic basketball development in Europe, and played there for years before coming to the NBA (they are also of Italian descent and nationality, if we want to get technical), anyway, the point is, they were developed in Europe..

Marcelo Huertas - yeah, he was not good in the NBA, and was mostly riding the bench. Still, he was effective on offense in pick and roll, and his awful defense was the same problem he had in Europe. He came to NBA several years past his prime, and still made NBA rosters for a couple of years. For comparison, he's been awful this year in EuroLeague. Not a bust.

Pablo Prigioni - came to NBA years after he was well past his prime, and was still a rotation player in NBA, in his mid to late 30s. For comparison, when he came back to EuroLeague, he lasted about 2 weeks before getting cut. Not a bust.

Manu Ginobili - he might be the best 6th man ever in NBA, and he was a key player in 4 NBA champion teams. Not a bust.

Carlos Delfino - He played a lot as a SF, but he was a SG/SF swingman. He was 6th man / starter in NBA...and honestly, he was better in NBA than he was in EuroLeague. Not a bust.

But you keep going on and on with this "no Eastern hemisphere guard has ever been good in the NBA" shtick. That they were all busts, that none exceot Popovic coached players were even contributors. That Rubio was a superstar in Europe....that all of them were better in Europe than in NBA, and dominated and were stars in Europe, but awful in NBA, etc.

Even in the cases you name over and over....

Exum - has been injured almost 2 whole seasons and was never considered anything but a talented project. Was playing high school basketball in Australia before being drafted....even his production now is probably higher than what any reasonable person could have expected. Not a bust.

Hezonja - was the 10th man on Barca, his team in Spain. Was never a good player at the senior level in Europe. Pretty much had a better rookie season in NBA, than his last year in Europe....averages 9 a game now as a rotation player, which is pretty much about what any reasonable person that saw him play in Europe thought he was going to do...Not a bust.

Rubio - it's already been discussed by so many people here....he was like a 6 and 3 player in Europe, and everyone knew he couldn't shoot, or score around the basket. He's also never been good with Spain's senior national team, even in current times. On the other hand, his NBA production is actually way above his Spanish League, EuroLeague, and FIBA production (again, even in current years)...yet you keep using him as some kind of proof that Doncic will be worse in NBA, or won't amount to anything in NBA...never mind the glaringly obvious thing that Doncic can shoot and Rubio can't, and again, Rubio isn't a bust either.

Ntilikina - why are you even using him as an example? He was averaging like 5 points a game in French League and Champions League, hardly comparable to EuroLeague...basically mid level European leagues. 5 points a game, anyone with basic basketball knowledge could see he was the team's shooting guard, not it's point guard (he did almost no play making for SIG at all), and he was seen in Europe as a project. So now this 19 year old project, that was playing shooting guard in Europe, averaging 5 points a game in mid level European leagues, is an example of a bust, because he's not doing much as a 19 year old starting point guard in NBA....and somehow we are supposed to take your word for it, that this means Doncic can't be trusted as a draft pick, and will obviously do worse or even bust in NBA. Seriously? Really? And yeah, for anyone with even the slightest bit of objectivity, Ntilikina isn't a bust either. He was a project on his French team for crying out loud.

I already discussed the issue of guys like Sasha Djordjevic, Sergey Bazarevich, Antoine Rigaudeau, Vassilis Spanoulis, Arvydas Macijauskas....you can't even fairly judge those cases of busts, because they got no real fair chance from their coaches. So cases also labeled as "busts", but in objectivity, you can't even know what a player would have done, when their coach refused to play them. Same thing happened to Drazen Petrovic for 2 years in Portland, so let's not pretend that some NBA coaches didn't have a bias against European players in those past times. It happened to even guys that could be very good players.

If it happened to Drazen, then of course it could happen to any European guard in the past. Rigaudeau was about 6-7, or 6-8, and was a really good shooter, so he would have gotten a chance today. Djordjevic was one of the best European players ever, and much worse players than him from Europe made a career in NBA. Spanoulis has had the best career in Europe of the last 15-20 years, and was always much better than guys like Calderon and Udrih, that made NBA careers at the same time. Let's call these cases the actual "busts".......yet, even in these cases, I am 100% sure that two of them (Djordjevic and Spanoulis), would have been NBA starters today, without some of the same coaching biases being so strong that existed at the time they were in the NBA. And in the case of Spanoulis specifically, the Rockets wanted to keep him, and so did the Spurs, and he was offered contracts after that. But even if you count them all as "busts", it still does not match your claim here for the bust rate you are claiming (which is almost all "Eastern Hemisphere guards")........

You keep claiming this huge "bust rate" for "Eastern Hemisphere guards"...however, actual history and facts show they have a much lower bust rate than NCAA guards from the Western Hemisphere have. Even your basic premise, of the bust rate, is factually wrong.

[RookieStar]

wow.. not only are we comparing USA players vs Euro players but we are even dividing them between East and West?

Also, Im.not Euro soI could be wrong but isnt France and Germany Western Europe? Juat wondering cuz you have Parker there in your list.

You could also include our old magic headscratcher in your list in M.Pietrus... great defender, dumb in almost evrything else

[bwgood77]

wow.. not only are we comparing USA players vs Euro players but we are even dividing them between East and West?

Also, Im.not Euro soI could be wrong but isnt France and Germany Western Europe? Juat wondering cuz you have Parker there in your list.

You could also include our old magic headscratcher in your list in M.Pietrus... great defender, dumb in almost evrything else

I believe one user was mentioning all european players as "eastern hemisphere" because when Ginobili was brought up as someone who has done well, since he is from Argentina, that is "western hemisphere".

[RookieStar]

wow.. not only are we comparing USA players vs Euro players but we are even dividing them between East and West?

Also, Im.not Euro soI could be wrong but isnt France and Germany Western Europe? Juat wondering cuz you have Parker there in your list.

You could also include our old magic headscratcher in your list in M.Pietrus... great defender, dumb in almost evrything else

I believe one user was mentioning all european players as "eastern hemisphere" because when Ginobili was brought up as someone who has done well, since he is from Argentina, that is "western hemisphere".

Lol this keeps getting better and better.

[Mirotic12]

wow.. not only are we comparing USA players vs Euro players but we are even dividing them between East and West?

Also, Im.not Euro soI could be wrong but isnt France and Germany Western Europe? Juat wondering cuz you have Parker there in your list.

You could also include our old magic headscratcher in your list in M.Pietrus... great defender, dumb in almost evrything else

I remember Pietrus as a SF, and you could argue he was "Western Hemisphere", even though he was developed in France.

As far as the Western Hemisphere and Eastern Hemisphere, that refers to anything in New World, North America and South America is Western Hemisphere, and everything else (Asia, Africa, Europe, Oceania) is Eastern Hemisphere.

I am saying that because daoneandonly keeps saying that no "Eastern Hemisphere" guard has ever done anything in the NBA, and not been a bust. Although he did change that later on to say none that were not coached by Popovic (as in Tony Parker, or Manu), after someone mentioned them, and then later he added, that didn't come from NCAA (when some people pointed out guys like Ben Simmons are from Eastern Hemisphere).

So using his criteria that he keeps setting here (guards from Eastern Hemisphere that didn't play in NCAA - so for example that would exclude guys like Matt Dellavedova and Patty Mills)....I am simply pointing out, he's factually wrong. He's factually wrong that they were all busts. He's factually wrong that they all did worse in NBA than in Europe. He's most definitely factually wrong, when he keeps claiming they have a higher bust rate than American NCAA players do.

I don't know why he keeps making that same argument, and then he keeps mentioning guys like Exum, Hezonja, and Ntilikina, which no one seriously thought were anything but projects at the time they were drafted. So using these arguments as reasons as to why Doncic will somehow flop in the NBA, really make no sense.

That's what I was trying to point out.

[RookieStar]

Just respect each others opinion when it comes to predicting the future cuz lets face it, declaring someone to be a bust or a bonafide star even BEFORE the draft is crystal ball ish territory.

Now if you are claiming Doncic is 6'10 just because you think so even without proof or what.. or say he is unathletic or fat because you saw a pic that shows he has extra bulge.. then thats debatable.

[Mirotic12]

Just respect each others opinion when it comes to predicting the future cuz lets face it, declaring someone to be a bust or a bonafide star even BEFORE the draft is crystal ball ish territory.

Now if you are claiming Doncic is 6'10 just because you think so even without proof or what.. or say he is unathletic or fat because you saw a pic that shows he has extra bulge.. then thats debatable.

Doncic is about 6-8 in shoes, and he could stand to lose a little baby fat, which is perfectly normal for a 19 year old. His athleticism is OK. I don't even really think anyone here is predicting that Doncic will be some huge star....I have not really seen any serious posts saying that, other than a few random posts about him being next Bird or next Magic. There are some people saying they think he could be a star, but not predicting or guaranteeing that.

On the other hand though, we have tons and tons of posts in all the Doncic threads with people outright declaring that he will definitely be a bust.

[RookieStar]

We have posts that claim Doncic is 6'10, is comparable to Larry Legend and is the Euro Harden. Just balance those with the posts about him being the next EuroBust...

Also, why are the Doncic fanboys so mad at him being compares to prime Hedo? Seriosuly, the guy was good when he was with us. If thats his floor theb thats a top5 pick worth well spent.

[Mirotic12]

We have posts that claim Doncic is 6'10, is comparable to Larry Legend and is the Euro Harden. Just balance those with the posts about him being the next EuroBust...

Also, why are the Doncic fanboys so mad at him being compares to prime Hedo? Seriosuly, the guy was good when he was with us. If thats his floor theb thats a top5 pick worth well spent.

Those posts are very few and far between. The amount of posts saying he will be a bust are quite commonplace and frequent.

I'm not a Doncic fan boy. But I do think comparing him to Hedo is quite an insult to Doncic. He's much better at age 19 than Hedo ever was. That's my personal opinion, but my personal opinion is based on objective basketball analysis. Doncic is better at Hedo on basically everything, except rebounding, where Doncic is still probably better, but he's also not 6-10 like Hedo was, so that does matter for that.

For me, the Ingles and Hedo comparisons are basically ridiculous. And I am certainly no Dancic fan boy. But I saw Hedo his whole career, and Ingles for years now (in Europe, with Australian NT, and in NBA), and neither one of them is anywhere close to having Doncic's skills or game.

[RookieStar]

How would you say its different when Hedo was our playmaker (supposedly doncic is a point fowrward as well ) we had no real PG cuz our short guards were mainly for scoring. Hedo was the one driving to give Shard open looks or tossing lobs to DH.

Also, Hedo had to guard the *star* SF of the other team ( granted all anyone had to do was funnel them to DH but still )

Lastly, he could score from anywhere. 3pt threat, driving using his full 6'10 or even posting up and shooting over. And or course, he was clutch. Hownmany teams did he kill with his dagger points.

So how is Doncic different from what Hedo does?

[baldur]

He can be similar to hedo and better than him at the same time.

[SportsGuy8]

Mirotic12 just made a very good list of European perimeter players actually translating well to the NBA. It's probably going to get ignored by the doubters and haters, not realising what it really means. The thing is, if Doncic translates similarly as most of these players, that means around 15-5-5 in 25 minutes. However, unlike most of the players Mirotic12 mentioned, this is such a good stat-line for 25 minutes that is surely going to warrant getting starters' minutes, meaning he shouldn't have much problems putting up something like 20-7-7.

Bottom line is this: the majority of European perimeter players translate very well to the NBA, their production per minute (or per36) stays in the same ballpark, the question is only if that's going to warrant getting star minutes and role. In Doncic's case it really should.

[daoneandonly]

Yeah because those guards like Exum, Rubio, Hezonja and soon to be Nkinnia never pan out as expected regardless of skin tone, that makes no difference or has any barring. Maybe it's a product of never playing against elite level competition in their youth, i don't know. but it does not seem to impact the bigs as much as evidenced by Dirk (white), Giannis, dad Sabonis (white), Jokic (white), and Porzingas (white). It's a factor GM's should be mindful of when taking someone so high, if we were talking picks 7 and beyond, sure, take Doncic no worries.

That's why I brought up Ingles and Turk, you can take those guys ideally with mid/late firsts, but even late lottery. You don't take them with a top 5, let alone top 2 pick when not ONE has panned out as of 2018. And like you pointed out, Ingles is a good shooter, so heck he's better than Doncic.

As nice as Ingles is, how many fans would be happy having suffered through a horrible tanking season only to end up with a player like Ingles? As a Mavs fan, I wouldn't and I'd guess as a Suns fan, nor would you.

You make it sound like the NBA and European club basketball has existed for like 5 years. You keep saying this same stuff over and over, despite that we already numerous times listed a whole bunch of "Eastern Hemisphere" guards that were decent NBA players, good NBA players, played better in NBA than they did in Europe, etc.

But you keep pretending none of that ever happened, and only mention a few examples from just recent years.

Again...........

Marko Jaric - Was a starter in NBA, was just as good in NBA as he was in Europe. Not a bust.

Gordan Giricek - Was a starter in NBA, was probably better in NBA than he was win Europe. Not a bust.

Goran Dragic - starter in NBA, and a good player (has been in 3rd team NBA once, and an all-star once). Personally, for me he's better in NBA than he is in Europe, although some people want to count one 9 game tournament that he had in his whole international career as proof otherwise - regardless, he was certainly better in NBA than he was in EuroLeague specifically. Not a bust. Also, when he played in Europe during the NBA lockout, he wasn't as good as Doncic is now in the same leagues.

Tomas Satoransky - Since he has been starting in the NBA, he's had a bit better production in the NBA (11/4/6), than he did in EuroLeague (9/3/4 in his best EuroLeague season). Not a bust.

Jose Calderon - Was a starter in NBA. He was way better in NBA than he was in Europe. Not a bust.

Ricky Rubio - a starter in NBA (you keep using him as an example of a failure), yet he undeniably performs better in NBA than he did in EuroLeague, or than he ever has with Spain's senior national team. Not a bust.

Alexey Shved - He was a rotation player in NBA, and he could have stayed in the NBA if he wanted to. But he got a huge amount of money in Russia. He's had NBA offers since, it just can't compete with his Russian contract. He's been better in Europe, than he was in the NBA, but then again, in his team in Europe, he is a first option, and as a 3rd option on the Knicks, he wasn't all that bad really (averaging 15/5/4 for the Knicks). Not a bust.

Alex Abrines - he's basically got the same role in the NBA that he had in Barca in EuroLeague. Pretty much no worse an NBA player at all than what he was in Europe. He was a catch and shoot role player with good athleticism in Barca, and that's what he is in the NBA. Not a bust.

Rudy Fernandez - Another so-called "bust". But he was a rotation player in NBA for 4 years, and he could have kept playing in the NBA, if he wanted to, but he went back to Spain for more money and personal issues (he was also offered NBA deals after he left for Spain). This one is kind of hard to quantify, since in Europe he's a small forward, and that's his natural position. But in NBA, he was a two guard. Really, look at his EuroLeague numbers - 11/3/3 for his career....playing out of position, and with some injury problems, he was a 4 year rotation player in NBA (again, not an actual bust at all, under any objective analysis).

Nicolas Batum - He's played a lot at SF, but he's also played at lot at SG, and is basically a 2/3. He's been a starter in NBA for years. He's also pretty much been better in NBA than he has with the French NT. Not a bust. Also, when he played in EuroLeague during the NBA lockout, he wasn't as good as Doncic is now.

Jiri Welsch - was a rotation player in NBA, even a starter at one point with the Celtics...he was miles better in NBA than he ever was in Europe. Hell, he spent most of his career in Europe in joke teams. Not a bust.

Tony Parker - had a very good NBA career, and he was really no more effective in Europe, than in NBA. At his best with France's national team, he was basically the same player he was on the Spurs. Was a starter for years, won 4 NBA championships, as a starter, and was Finals MVP once. Not a bust.

Bogdan Bogdanovic - seems to be doing fairly OK so far in NBA, as a rookie. Just about same numbers he had in EuroLeague. Not a bust.

Roko Ukic - he didn't do much in the NBA, despite some chances, but in reality, he didn't do much in Europe either. It's not like he was a bust either, because no one should have expected anything from him in NBA. He hasn't even established himself as a EuroLeague player since he left NBA, and has been playing mainly in 2nd and 3rd tier European leagues, even though he's a better player now, than when he was in NBA.

Sergio Rodriguez - fact is, he was a rotation player in NBA for 5 years, and could have played his whole career in NBA, if he wanted to, but he chose to leave the NBA twice, for more money in Europe. Another so-called "bust", but he averaged 8/5 last year in NBA...while he averages 14/5 right now in EuroLeague (in what is probably the best season he ever had in EuroLeague). Again, that's not actually "a bust" to anyone with sense and objectivity.

Sasha Vujacic - years as a rotation player in the NBA, he was miles and miles better in NBA than in Europe. Dude has been a flat out scrub every time he played in EuroLeague. Sure, he was a bad NBA player obviously, but the point is, he was an even worse EuroLeague player, yet somehow managed to stay in NBA for years, and even get consistent playing time. Not a bust.

Milos Teodosic - doing OK for a rookie, and with some injuries. Not a bust so far.

Beno Udrih - was a rotation player for years and years in NBA. He was way better in NBA than he was in Europe. One of those players NBA fans claimed would have "dominated" EuroLeague.....he averages an incredible 2.2 points and 1.1 assists this year...not a bust.

Raul Lopez - he came into the NBA already with bad knees, after injuries, and was still a rotation player. His career after NBA in Europe, was basically about the same numbers he had in NBA and still with injury issues. Not a bust.

Sasha Pavlovic - he was a rotation player in NBA for quite a long time. Never did a thing in Europe, in club or national team play. Was awful in EuroLeague after he left NBA. Was one of those players NBA fans claimed would have "dominated" EuroLeague, yet was terrible there. Not a bust.

Drazen Petrovic - After getting benched for 2 years by Rick Adelman in Portland, he was averaging over 22 a game, and was in 3rd all NBA team at the time he died with the Nets. Not a bust.

Sarunas Jasikevicius - called a bust, but with the Pacers he was a rotation player, and had averages of 13/5 per 36 minutes (pretty similar to his EuroLeague numbers). His main problem was defense, but with today's NBA rules, he wouldn't have had anywhere near the same problems on defense. He was a better defender than Teodosic for example. This example of a "bust", isn't even a good one really, because when he got playing time, he had similar numbers on offense as in Europe. The defense issue again isn't the same now. With today's rules, he would just be another guard that provides no defense. He could have stayed in NBA, as he had an offer from the Cavs, but went back to Europe for more money. Not really a bust, if you objectively analyze it.

Juan Carlos Navarro - also called a bust for some reason, but he was a 6th man as a rookie, and averaged something like 13 points a game whenever he got 25 minutes of playing time (pretty much the same as his EuroLeague numbers). The Grizzlies and Lakers offered him full MLE contracts, which he turned down for personal and financial reasons. He could not have been that bad of a player, if 2 teams made full MLE offers, after a rookie season. If he stayed in NBA, he would have probably been a bigger version of Jason Terry. Another example of a "bust", that really wasn't actually a bust, with objective analysis.

Sasha Danilovic - was a decent rotation player in the NBA, you called him a scrub, but he was averaging 13 on a Miami team that made the playoffs, and 17 a game on a bad Dallas team (you said he was awful and sucked on Dallas). Not a bust.

Sarunas Marciulionis - he was probably one of the 2-3 best 6th men in NBA history, and he was better in NBA than he was in Europe. Not a bust.

Dennis Schroder - seems to be having no problems so far in NBA, is a starter, and has fairly good production. Not a bust.

Evan Fournier - same case as Schroder basically. Not a bust.

Marcelo Huertas - yeah, he was not good in the NBA, and was mostly riding the bench. Still, he was effective on offense in pick and roll, and his awful defense was the same problem he had in Europe. He came to NBA several years past his prime, and still made NBA rosters for a couple of years. For comparison, he's been awful this year in EuroLeague. Not a bust.

Marco Belinelli - he's been a rotation player in NBA for years now, and a was a starter for a couple years. Frankly, he's always been better in the NBA than he has been whenever he played for Italy's national team. Not a bust.

Nando de Colo - OK, I will grant you that his case qualifies as a bust. Considering his level in Europe, then what he did in NBA, and that he did get plenty of chances in NBA. Still, let's not pretend that he can't play in NBA. There is no doubt that he could be a rotation player in an NBA team that gave him a chance. So even in this case, where yes, you could qualify it as a "bust", it still is a player that can be a rotation player in NBA right now. I mean, he is absolutely for sure better than many current NBA players. And he's had NBA offers since he was in Russia. So even in some of these actual real bust examples, it does not mean what you are implying it means (not good enough to play in the NBA).


Also, they didn't originate from Europe, but Delfino, Prigioni and Ginobili made their basic basketball development in Europe, and played there for years before coming to the NBA (they are also of Italian descent and nationality, if we want to get technical), anyway, the point is, they were developed in Europe..

Pablo Prigioni - came to NBA years after he was well past his prime, and was still a rotation player in NBA, in his mid to late 30s. For comparison, when he came back to EuroLeague, he lasted about 2 weeks before getting cut. Not a bust.

Manu Ginobili - he might be the best 6th man ever in NBA, and he was a key player in 4 NBA champion teams. Not a bust.

Carlos Delfino - He played a lot as a SF, but he was a SG/SF swingman. He was 6th man / starter in NBA...and honestly, he was better in NBA than he was in EuroLeague. Not a bust.

But you keep going on and on with this "no Eastern hemisphere guard has ever been good in the NBA" shtick. That they were all busts, that none exceot Popovic coached players were even contributors. That Rubio was a superstar in Europe....that all of them were better in Europe than in NBA, and dominated and were stars in Europe, but awful in NBA, etc.

Even in the cases you name over and over....

Exum - has been injured almost 2 whole seasons and was never considered anything but a talented project. Was playing high school basketball in Australia before being drafted....even his production now is probably higher than what any reasonable person could have expected. Not a bust.

Hezonja - was the 10th man on Barca, his team in Spain. Was never a good player at the senior level in Europe. Pretty much had a better rookie season in NBA, than his last year in Europe....averages 9 a game now as a rotation player, which is pretty much about what any reasonable person that saw him play in Europe thought he was going to do...Not a bust.

Rubio - it's already been discussed by so many people here....he was like a 6 and 3 player in Europe, and everyone knew he couldn't shoot, or score around the basket. He's also never been good with Spain's senior national team, even in current times. On the other hand, his NBA production is actually way above his Spanish League, EuroLeague, and FIBA production (again, even in current years)...yet you keep using him as some kind of proof that Doncic will be worse in NBA, or won't amount to anything in NBA...never mind the glaringly obvious thing that Doncic can shoot and Rubio can't, and again, Rubio isn't a bust either.

Ntilikina - what are you even using him as an example? He was averaging like 5 points a game in French League and Champions League, hardly comparable to EuroLeague...basically mid level European leagues. 5 points a game, anyone with basic basketball knowledge could see he was the team's shooting guard, not it's point guard (he did almost no play making for SIG at all), and he was seen in Europe as a project. So now this 19 year old project, that was playing shooting guard in Europe, averaging 5 points a game in mid level European leagues, is an example of a bust, because he's not doing much as a 19 year old starting point guard in NBA....and somehow we are supposed to take your word for it, that this means Doncic can't be trusted as a draft pick, and will obviously do worse or even bust in NBA. Seriously? Really? And yeah, for anyone with even the slightest bit of objectivity, Ntilikina isn't a bust either. He was a project on his French team for crying out loud.

I already discussed the issue of guys like Sasha Djordjevic, Sergey Bazarevich, Antoine Rigaudeau, Vassilis Spanoulis, Arvydas Macijauskas....you can't even fairly judge those cases of busts, because they got no real fair chance from their coaches. So cases also labeled as "busts", but in objectivity, you can't even know what a player would have done, when their coach refused to play them. Same thing happened to Drazen Petrovic for 2 years in Portland, so let's not pretend that some NBA coaches didn't have a bias against European players in those past times. It happened to even guys that could be very good players.

If it happened to Drazen, then of course it could happen to any European guard in the past. Rigaudeau was about 6-7, or 6-8, and was a really good shooter, so he would have gotten a chance today. Djordjevic was one of the best European players ever, and much worse players than him from Europe made a career in NBA. Spanoulis has had the best career in Europe of the last 15-20 years, and was always much better than guys like Calderon and Udrih, that made NBA careers at the same time. Let's call these cases the actual "busts".......yet, even in these cases, I am 100% sure that two of them (Djordjevic and Spanoulis), would have been NBA starters today, without some of the same coaching biases being so strong that existed at the time they were in the NBA. And in the case of Spanoulis specifically, the Rockets wanted to keep him, and so did the Spurs, and he was offered contracts after that. But even if you count them all as "busts", it still does not match your claim here for the bust rate you are claiming (which is almost all "Eastern Hemisphere guards")........

You keep claiming this huge "bust rate" for "Eastern Hemisphere guards"...however, actual history and facts show they have a much lower bust rate than NCAA guards from the Western Hemisphere have. Even your basic premise, of the bust rate, is factually wrong.

And you keep mistaking good/decent for superstar, these tiers are not interchangeable. I never said all those guys suck, some of them absolutely, but some of them are indeed pretty good players as you mentioned. Heck, I live in the DC area and see Satoransky all the time, I wish the Mavs had him, the guy is good. None however have become superstars, none have ever been worthy of a top 5 pick, let alone top 2. I am not going to ride some tidal wave and believe we finally have the guy after all these years, heck decades, cause chances are much higher we don't than we do. That's what I've been stressing.

[daoneandonly]

wow.. not only are we comparing USA players vs Euro players but we are even dividing them between East and West?

Also, Im.not Euro soI could be wrong but isnt France and Germany Western Europe? Juat wondering cuz you have Parker there in your list.

You could also include our old magic headscratcher in your list in M.Pietrus... great defender, dumb in almost evrything else

I believe one user was mentioning all european players as "eastern hemisphere" because when Ginobili was brought up as someone who has done well, since he is from Argentina, that is "western hemisphere".

Actually that is incorrect, no one has ever brought up Manu here, feel free to use your mod powers and do a search in case I missed it or if people feel I'm being untruthful. The Hemisphere was distinction was brought up so we could include "out for the season" Exum in the list of guys nowhere near worthy of where they were drafted.

[AJ3]

So i've been reading about the rules of draft etc, and i'm confused on how exactly it Works with Luka. Does he need to declare? And if so when is the last day that he can declare?

[burek3]

http://www.nba.com/article/2018/01/23/2018-nba-draft-important-dates-know

He has to apply by 20180422, and can withdraw until 20180611