Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder

[p0peye]

Man Rob should have listened to Skiles and sent Payton packing when he still had value. He still has the same issue Skiles chastised him about, difference is he is veteran now and can't use the young player excuse anymore. What a horrible move that turn out to be.

I'd love to pick Henny's brain and figure out WTF he ever saw in him. He went down with the ship on the USS Elfrid instead of saving his own ass. Instead Henny's career died on that hill and now he's got whatever stupid, fancy title OKC gave him that's code for janitor.

Well, he fully deserves it for dying on that hill. In fact, he's pretty lucky to have any kind of job seeing how Payton fares.

[Skin]

So is it safe to say we won't have any regrets?

[fklt]

I've given up on him earlier this year, so I can understand the current sentiments in some way. but people are acting like his first year never happened. what did rob ever see in him? he was a rookie of the year candidate ffs.

I hope it's fun to ride all the waves

[p0peye]

I've given up on him earlier this year, so I can understand the current sentiments in some way. but people are acting like his first year never happened. what did rob ever see in him? he was a rookie of the year candidate ffs.

I hope it's fun to ride all the waves

Elf had a great rookie season.

Then again, MCW was actual rookie of the year IIRC, and so was Tyreke Evans couple of years before.

Rookie seasons (sophomore too) is the time you look past any contemporary problems and look for flashes of potential greatness instead. Problem with Elfrid is that he never improved and with time actually regressed in some parts of his game, namely defense.

GM's job is to recognize future star, as well as bust when he sees one - especially once that player is on your team and you have all the material and time in the world to pass judgement. It is OK for us as fans to judge him wrong or too late, but professional basketball minds are not to be mislead in the such fashion for so long.

Henny was in Elf's corner when Skiles wanted to trade him, which reportedly lead to clash between Henny and Skiles and eventual coach's demise. Later Vogel too benched Elf and still Henny refused to acknowledge the failure, even though at that point there was fans on this board calling it as they see it.

[fklt]

I've given up on him earlier this year, so I can understand the current sentiments in some way. but people are acting like his first year never happened. what did rob ever see in him? he was a rookie of the year candidate ffs.

I hope it's fun to ride all the waves

Elf had a great rookie season.

Then again, MCW was actual rookie of the year IIRC, and so was Tyreke Evans couple of years before.

Rookie seasons (sophomore too) is the time you look past any contemporary problems and look for flashes of potential greatness instead. Problem with Elfrid is that he never improved and with time actually regressed in some parts of his game, namely defense.

GM's job is to recognize future star, as well as bust when he sees one - especially once that player is on your team and you have all the material and time in the world to pass judgement. It is OK for us as fans to judge him wrong or too late, but professional basketball minds are not to be mislead in the such fashion for so long.

Henny was in Elf's corner when Skiles wanted to trade him, which reportedly lead to clash between Henny and Skiles and eventual coach's demise. Later Vogel too benched Elf and still Henny refused to acknowledge the failure, even though at that point there was fans on this board calling it as they see it.

I agree with you in that we should have traded him after the 2nd season. I agree Hennigan made a lot of mistakes regarding him. but this doesn't make picking him a bad decision and doesn't mean elf wasn't an exciting player in his first year.

drafting players is a lottery in itself. sometimes players with a high percentage to pan out, don't pan out. you can't control the things outside of your reach. and your later mistakes don't erase your past good decisions. excuse me if I'm weirded out by the fact that everybody is now acting like they knew he was a bust from the very start and baffled by the fact that some people thought he was worth a shot. including people who hated his trade to suns.

[p0peye]

I've given up on him earlier this year, so I can understand the current sentiments in some way. but people are acting like his first year never happened. what did rob ever see in him? he was a rookie of the year candidate ffs.

I hope it's fun to ride all the waves

Elf had a great rookie season.

Then again, MCW was actual rookie of the year IIRC, and so was Tyreke Evans couple of years before.

Rookie seasons (sophomore too) is the time you look past any contemporary problems and look for flashes of potential greatness instead. Problem with Elfrid is that he never improved and with time actually regressed in some parts of his game, namely defense.

GM's job is to recognize future star, as well as bust when he sees one - especially once that player is on your team and you have all the material and time in the world to pass judgement. It is OK for us as fans to judge him wrong or too late, but professional basketball minds are not to be mislead in the such fashion for so long.

Henny was in Elf's corner when Skiles wanted to trade him, which reportedly lead to clash between Henny and Skiles and eventual coach's demise. Later Vogel too benched Elf and still Henny refused to acknowledge the failure, even though at that point there was fans on this board calling it as they see it.

I agree with you in that we should have traded him after the 2nd season. I agree Hennigan made a lot of mistakes regarding him. but this doesn't make picking him a bad decision and doesn't mean elf wasn't an exciting player in his first year.

drafting players is a lottery in itself. sometimes players with a high percentage to pan out, don't pan out. you can't control the things outside of your reach. and your later mistakes don't erase your past good decisions. excuse me if I'm weirded out by the fact that everybody is now acting like they knew he was a bust from the very start and baffled by the fact that some people thought he was worth a shot. including people who hated his trade to suns.

There's not disagreement there. I considered Elfrid the real prize in 2014 draft and don't think there was many who doubted Elf his first two seasons here. Brows were raised the moment Vogel too benched him, and from that point on some fans took off the pink glasses and started inspecting Elf's play, not only from advanced statistics perspective.

Let me be clear: Elf had real potential. He just didn't realize not even a tiny bit. From whatever reason, there was no fire, no drive to improve and play this game. In some ways he was mini Darko reincarnated, without punk part.

[pepe1991]

10 months ago debate was is he next star or how he is "easly above average starter". There are some people here who thought Holiday and Dragić are worst than him. And ofc, Kyle Lowry and late bloomers....
Today argument is- is he even nba player.

I was always his "hater" (actually i don't hate him ,i just don't find him good as a player ) ,but even I didn't expect this sh***show he does with Suns. He is bound for bench contract now and can be happy if he can land long tearm one as well.

[bargnanimvp]

10 months ago debate was is he next star or how he is "easly above average starter". There are some people here who thought Holiday and Dragić are worst than him. And ofc, Kyle Lowry and late bloomers....
Today argument is- is he even nba player.

I was always his "hater" (actually i don't hate him ,i just don't find him good as a player ) ,but even I didn't expect this sh***show he does with Suns. He is bound for bench contract now and can be happy if he can land long tearm one as well.

I never hated him, i liked him, but my view after his first season was that he would be a good bench player not a starter on a good team.

[p0peye]

Sentinel comes hard at Payton yesterday.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-sp-orlando-magic-improved-defense-0327-story.html

Something has changed with the Orlando Magic over their last 20 games.

Their defense, one of the NBA’s worst for most of the season, has improved — improved enough to call itself above-average.

Statistics say so.

Over their first 53 games, the Magic ranked 27th in the NBA in points allowed per possession, according to the league’s figures.

But since Feb. 8, a period that accounts for almost one-quarter of a season, the Magic have ranked 13th.

Perhaps the biggest argument Vogel has in his favor is that he inherited a subpar roster, including a starting point guard, Elfrid Payton, who struggled mightily on defense throughout his four-year NBA career and was especially vulnerable guarding pick-and-rolls. The Magic traded Payton on Feb. 8, and his absence no doubt has contributed to the Magic’s defensive improvement.

[Audi]

The crazy thing is you’ve got Suns fans talking about the 4th quarter with 3:33 left on the clock and Elf essentially giving up. Yet there was a time we all witnessed just a mere season+ ago, where that last 3:33 was when he seemed to play his best ball - often bringing us back into games single handedly with intensity on both ends.

[bargnanimvp]

Sentinel comes hard at Payton yesterday.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-sp-orlando-magic-improved-defense-0327-story.html

Something has changed with the Orlando Magic over their last 20 games.

Their defense, one of the NBA’s worst for most of the season, has improved — improved enough to call itself above-average.

Statistics say so.

Over their first 53 games, the Magic ranked 27th in the NBA in points allowed per possession, according to the league’s figures.

But since Feb. 8, a period that accounts for almost one-quarter of a season, the Magic have ranked 13th.

Perhaps the biggest argument Vogel has in his favor is that he inherited a subpar roster, including a starting point guard, Elfrid Payton, who struggled mightily on defense throughout his four-year NBA career and was especially vulnerable guarding pick-and-rolls. The Magic traded Payton on Feb. 8, and his absence no doubt has contributed to the Magic’s defensive improvement.

Some of us used to point out to the people who heaped all our defence woes on Vuc's shoulders that the fact our guards couldn't stay in front of their men, could't switch correctly and couldn't navigate screens correctly was making Vuc look worse than he was. These numbers help back that up in my opinion. And no i'm not saying Vuc is a good defender, he's passable 1v1 but his shot blocking and movement to help is bad but good teams would be able to lessen how bad it looks by not allowing so many guards/wings to get by and drive on him.

[Driguez]

I say we LID

[NBAchamps2017]

.... Henny refused to acknowledge the failure, even though at that point [about two years ago] there was fans [one of them is me] on this board calling it as they see it.

Before you lid

[GameOver25]

I will say I was a defender at one point, had the Sig and all. But if you look at Elf from pure basketball perspective only, you have to question his mentality. I mean there's G-league players, overseas players, former players out of the league who die for a NBA roster spot and it's as if Elf is slowly killing himself softly out of the league or becoming permanent journeyman.

He needs to wake up.

[J the Drafter]

I must have missed something in my time away from following the Magic, because I’d never have described Elfrid as a mediocre player. He plummeted hard this year. FO is betting on this not being an abberation (if they weren’t just trying to tank, of course).

[cedric76]

Man Rob should have listened to Skiles and sent Payton packing when he still had value. He still has the same issue Skiles chastised him about, difference is he is veteran now and can't use the young player excuse anymore. What a horrible move that turn out to be.

Skiles would have taken us to playoff

[cedric76]

I think elf is a haircut away from greatness

Sent from my SM-A310F using RealGM mobile app

[RickB-Orlando]

Elf had a great rookie season.

Then again, MCW was actual rookie of the year IIRC, and so was Tyreke Evans couple of years before.

Rookie seasons (sophomore too) is the time you look past any contemporary problems and look for flashes of potential greatness instead. Problem with Elfrid is that he never improved and with time actually regressed in some parts of his game, namely defense.

GM's job is to recognize future star, as well as bust when he sees one - especially once that player is on your team and you have all the material and time in the world to pass judgement. It is OK for us as fans to judge him wrong or too late, but professional basketball minds are not to be mislead in the such fashion for so long.

Henny was in Elf's corner when Skiles wanted to trade him, which reportedly lead to clash between Henny and Skiles and eventual coach's demise. Later Vogel too benched Elf and still Henny refused to acknowledge the failure, even though at that point there was fans on this board calling it as they see it.

I agree with you in that we should have traded him after the 2nd season. I agree Hennigan made a lot of mistakes regarding him. but this doesn't make picking him a bad decision and doesn't mean elf wasn't an exciting player in his first year.

drafting players is a lottery in itself. sometimes players with a high percentage to pan out, don't pan out. you can't control the things outside of your reach. and your later mistakes don't erase your past good decisions. excuse me if I'm weirded out by the fact that everybody is now acting like they knew he was a bust from the very start and baffled by the fact that some people thought he was worth a shot. including people who hated his trade to suns.

There's not disagreement there. I considered Elfrid the real prize in 2014 draft and don't think there was many who doubted Elf his first two seasons here. Brows were raised the moment Vogel too benched him, and from that point on some fans took off the pink glasses and started inspecting Elf's play, not only from advanced statistics perspective.

Let me be clear: Elf had real potential. He just didn't realize not even a tiny bit. From whatever reason, there was no fire, no drive to improve and play this game. In some ways he was mini Darko reincarnated, without punk part.

I completely agree wit this last part. Going into that draft I was hopeful we would draft Elf and disappointed when Philly grabbed him. I was thrilled when we traded for him and then quickly came to realize he wasn't going to cut it.

This kid put his college team on his back and carried them. He willed them into the NCAA tournament and looked like he had all the tools to me, including that intangible "will to win" that special players have. Then he got here and it was like "I'm reached my goal of playing in the NBA, I can relax now." It's a shame because we kept seeing flashes of what he *could* be, but he was never ever able to put it all together and sustain that level of play.

I don't think we did him any favors replacing Skiles with Vogel. Skiles had the ability to really teach him to be the fiery, explosive Point if only he could build the desire. Vogel just doesn't seem to fire anybody up.

[OrlandoNed]

Sentinel comes hard at Payton yesterday.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-sp-orlando-magic-improved-defense-0327-story.html

Something has changed with the Orlando Magic over their last 20 games.

Their defense, one of the NBA’s worst for most of the season, has improved — improved enough to call itself above-average.

Statistics say so.

Over their first 53 games, the Magic ranked 27th in the NBA in points allowed per possession, according to the league’s figures.

But since Feb. 8, a period that accounts for almost one-quarter of a season, the Magic have ranked 13th.

Perhaps the biggest argument Vogel has in his favor is that he inherited a subpar roster, including a starting point guard, Elfrid Payton, who struggled mightily on defense throughout his four-year NBA career and was especially vulnerable guarding pick-and-rolls. The Magic traded Payton on Feb. 8, and his absence no doubt has contributed to the Magic’s defensive improvement.

Some of us used to point out to the people who heaped all our defence woes on Vuc's shoulders that the fact our guards couldn't stay in front of their men, could't switch correctly and couldn't navigate screens correctly was making Vuc look worse than he was. These numbers help back that up in my opinion. And no i'm not saying Vuc is a good defender, he's passable 1v1 but his shot blocking and movement to help is bad but good teams would be able to lessen how bad it looks by not allowing so many guards/wings to get by and drive on him.

Vuc is an average defender on a good day, but because of how slow he is he got terribly exposed in 1/5 pick and rolls due to Payton being the absolute worst defender of pick and roll plays. Payton never did Vuc any favors on defense.

[Mauro Pedrosa]

I will say I was a defender at one point, had the Sig and all. But if you look at Elf from pure basketball perspective only, you have to question his mentality. I mean there's G-league players, overseas players, former players out of the league who die for a NBA roster spot and it's as if Elf is slowly killing himself softly out of the league or becoming permanent journeyman.

He needs to wake up.

Well said. I think he's not the sharpest tool in the box. If you're as good as Russell Westbrook, feel free to wear whatever you want and have the haircut that you want, but when you're struggling to remain a starter and there are questions about your hair messing with your game, you gotta cut that ****