The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Alatan]

And if you want to build around Mitchell, you will need length and a good defensive point guard to mask his defficiencies too.
Which the Utah Jazz have btw.

Mitchell is a good defender and has great length and size for his position of PG. He doesnt need a good defender next to him, he is a good defender.

We will see indeed, but if it's that easy, why aren't teams doing it.
Simmons is the type of player that can impact games without scoring. That's to a lot lesser extent the case with Donovan Mitchell, who I really, really like btw.

I disagree, Simmons needs the ball in his hands and relies on shooters hitting their shots to impact the game. Once teams start to defend him like Rondo his impact will fall of the cliff. Team are just scared of his size so they over help on him, but he almost always finishes with his right and is not a great leaper when attacking the rim so a single defender is all you need to make him inefficient. If the defender is bulkier or longer i think he can completely shut down Simmons. Maybe im wrong, we shall see.

But all the stats tell there's a reasonable gap between the two.

Stats lie. They reward impact for simple passes, correlate defense with rebounding, gambling and bad backups and presume efficiency is the same with any load in any role.
Simmons stats are inflated by having the ball so much, being a pass first guy, not having a scoring load, having a rebounding role and playing in front of weak backups.

Mitchell stats are deflated by sharing the ball in a motion offense (witch i think is great), playing as a primary scoring option in a team with bad spacing and playing in mixed lineups in a good defensive system.

Simmons is a good player but too limited. If he gets a jumper and starts finishing with his left hand he will be a much better player than he is now and then we can compare him to Mithcell.

So...to sum up:

1) Stats lie; and
2) Mitchell is better than Simmons because...because...because I said so.

Ladies and gentleman - welcome to the United States of America in 2018. Where stats lie, alternative facts rule, and if you say something long enough and loud enough, the value of fact-based arguments are drowned out.

And it is not just that this post is nothing but 100% subjective opinion, what is REALLY special is the poster actually comes out and says, in essence, “yeah...the statitistics say X, but I say that the statistics are not factual. They lie. So, I will simply choose to not recognize these statistics as having any value, because what I subjectively believe is the truth is all that matters.”

Awesome.

Box score stats are facts, king of if you exclude the subjective element of assists, fouls and some other plays. Advanced stats that try to calculate impact are not. They are conclusions using assumptions and broad correlations.

Player A getting 10 rebounds a game is a fact. Player B getting 9 rebounds a game is a fact. Player A is a better rebounder than player B is a conclusion and it might be wrong based on context. Or do you want to argue that Westbrook is a better rebounder than Adams?

[Black Mage]

“Simmons relies on shooters hitting their shots”. Yep, that’s generally how assists and the game of basketball works. He relies on dunkers dunking their dunks too. Luckily for Ben he does so many other things well.

How can you use that as a negative of Simmons when Mitchell is a volume shooter?

Does he create easy looks for them or are they shooting contested 3 pointers half of the time ? Its one thing to give someone an easy look and another to just pass to someone and get credit if they hit a contested shot. Beside the shots he does create currently will be gone when times stop overhelping on his drives.

Dario Saric has been assisted on 100% of his made threes. The majority of those are from Simmons. Of those from Simmons, the majority of his shots are taken with defenders about 6 feet away.

Roco is experiencing a career high in uncontested threes, many on assists from Simmons.

So I think it is safe to say that he does indeed create easy looks for his teammates.

[Alatan]

“Simmons relies on shooters hitting their shots”. Yep, that’s generally how assists and the game of basketball works. He relies on dunkers dunking their dunks too. Luckily for Ben he does so many other things well.

How can you use that as a negative of Simmons when Mitchell is a volume shooter?

Does he create easy looks for them or are they shooting contested 3 pointers half of the time ? Its one thing to give someone an easy look and another to just pass to someone and get credit if they hit a contested shot. Beside the shots he does create currently will be gone when times stop overhelping on his drives.

Dario Saric has been assisted on 100% of his made threes. The majority of those are from Simmons. Of those from Simmons, the majority of his shots are taken with defenders about 6 feet away.

Roco is experiencing a career high in uncontested threes, many on assists from Simmons.

So I think it is safe to say that he does indeed create easy looks for his teammates.

Ok. Maybe i am underrating the impact of drive and kick players. If people think that it is Simmons' driving that makes Saric, Cowington, Redick and others shoot significantly better than they would by able to in other systems with average PGs so be it.

[michaelm]

Mitchell is a good defender and has great length and size for his position of PG. He doesnt need a good defender next to him, he is a good defender.


I disagree, Simmons needs the ball in his hands and relies on shooters hitting their shots to impact the game. Once teams start to defend him like Rondo his impact will fall of the cliff. Team are just scared of his size so they over help on him, but he almost always finishes with his right and is not a great leaper when attacking the rim so a single defender is all you need to make him inefficient. If the defender is bulkier or longer i think he can completely shut down Simmons. Maybe im wrong, we shall see.

Stats lie. They reward impact for simple passes, correlate defense with rebounding, gambling and bad backups and presume efficiency is the same with any load in any role.
Simmons stats are inflated by having the ball so much, being a pass first guy, not having a scoring load, having a rebounding role and playing in front of weak backups.

Mitchell stats are deflated by sharing the ball in a motion offense (witch i think is great), playing as a primary scoring option in a team with bad spacing and playing in mixed lineups in a good defensive system.

Simmons is a good player but too limited. If he gets a jumper and starts finishing with his left hand he will be a much better player than he is now and then we can compare him to Mithcell.

So...to sum up:

1) Stats lie; and
2) Mitchell is better than Simmons because...because...because I said so.

Ladies and gentleman - welcome to the United States of America in 2018. Where stats lie, alternative facts rule, and if you say something long enough and loud enough, the value of fact-based arguments are drowned out.

And it is not just that this post is nothing but 100% subjective opinion, what is REALLY special is the poster actually comes out and says, in essence, “yeah...the statitistics say X, but I say that the statistics are not factual. They lie. So, I will simply choose to not recognize these statistics as having any value, because what I subjectively believe is the truth is all that matters.”

Awesome.

Box score stats are facts, king of if you exclude the subjective element of assists, fouls and some other plays. Advanced stats that try to calculate impact are not. They are conclusions using assumptions and broad correlations.

Player A getting 10 rebounds a game is a fact. Player B getting 9 rebounds a game is a fact. Player A is a better rebounder than player B is a conclusion and it might be wrong based on context. Or do you want to argue that Westbrook is a better rebounder than Adams?

In which case Simmons, a player who threatens to have a triple double in most games, and has been getting same without playing much in the 4th quarter in recent games, must be a good player by your own argument, although paradoxically you have discounted his raw statistics as well in other posts.

He is a rather good point guard who happens to be 6' 10". If he had a jumpshot of middling quality, he would be LeBron James, which he isn't at this point in time obviously. However he can rebound better than most point guards and defend a wider range of positions than pretty much any other PG because of his height and size while still having the athleticism and agility to be a point guard at that size, as well as court vison etc.

[bebopdeluxe]

Mitchell is a good defender and has great length and size for his position of PG. He doesnt need a good defender next to him, he is a good defender.


I disagree, Simmons needs the ball in his hands and relies on shooters hitting their shots to impact the game. Once teams start to defend him like Rondo his impact will fall of the cliff. Team are just scared of his size so they over help on him, but he almost always finishes with his right and is not a great leaper when attacking the rim so a single defender is all you need to make him inefficient. If the defender is bulkier or longer i think he can completely shut down Simmons. Maybe im wrong, we shall see.

Stats lie. They reward impact for simple passes, correlate defense with rebounding, gambling and bad backups and presume efficiency is the same with any load in any role.
Simmons stats are inflated by having the ball so much, being a pass first guy, not having a scoring load, having a rebounding role and playing in front of weak backups.

Mitchell stats are deflated by sharing the ball in a motion offense (witch i think is great), playing as a primary scoring option in a team with bad spacing and playing in mixed lineups in a good defensive system.

Simmons is a good player but too limited. If he gets a jumper and starts finishing with his left hand he will be a much better player than he is now and then we can compare him to Mithcell.

So...to sum up:

1) Stats lie; and
2) Mitchell is better than Simmons because...because...because I said so.

Ladies and gentleman - welcome to the United States of America in 2018. Where stats lie, alternative facts rule, and if you say something long enough and loud enough, the value of fact-based arguments are drowned out.

And it is not just that this post is nothing but 100% subjective opinion, what is REALLY special is the poster actually comes out and says, in essence, “yeah...the statitistics say X, but I say that the statistics are not factual. They lie. So, I will simply choose to not recognize these statistics as having any value, because what I subjectively believe is the truth is all that matters.”

Awesome.

Box score stats are facts, king of if you exclude the subjective element of assists, fouls and some other plays. Advanced stats that try to calculate impact are not. They are conclusions using assumptions and broad correlations.

Player A getting 10 rebounds a game is a fact. Player B getting 9 rebounds a game is a fact. Player A is a better rebounder than player B is a conclusion and it might be wrong based on context. Or do you want to argue that Westbrook is a better rebounder than Adams?

It is clear that you do not understand advanced statistics and analytics. They aren’t “conclusions”. They are not based on assumptions. They are calculations of statistical outcomes. They are FACTS. They are mathematical formulas that analyze player and team production...and they are completely agnostic as to the subjective ish that you are throwing out there.

The issue is you don’t like what the FACTS say. You don’t like what the ANALYSIS shows. So, you do what is all-too-common in America today - you try to delegitimize the stats...say they “lie”. Say they don’t matter...because what REALLY matters is what you “think”...what you “feel”...and if you scream it loud enough, you hope to tear down the validity of what the stats say.

Nice.

[Alatan]

So...to sum up:

1) Stats lie; and
2) Mitchell is better than Simmons because...because...because I said so.

Ladies and gentleman - welcome to the United States of America in 2018. Where stats lie, alternative facts rule, and if you say something long enough and loud enough, the value of fact-based arguments are drowned out.

And it is not just that this post is nothing but 100% subjective opinion, what is REALLY special is the poster actually comes out and says, in essence, “yeah...the statitistics say X, but I say that the statistics are not factual. They lie. So, I will simply choose to not recognize these statistics as having any value, because what I subjectively believe is the truth is all that matters.”

Awesome.

Box score stats are facts, king of if you exclude the subjective element of assists, fouls and some other plays. Advanced stats that try to calculate impact are not. They are conclusions using assumptions and broad correlations.

Player A getting 10 rebounds a game is a fact. Player B getting 9 rebounds a game is a fact. Player A is a better rebounder than player B is a conclusion and it might be wrong based on context. Or do you want to argue that Westbrook is a better rebounder than Adams?

In which case Simmons, a player who threatens to have a triple double in most games, and has been getting same without playing much in the 4th quarter in recent games, must be a good player by your own argument, although paradoxically you have discounted his raw statistics as well in other posts.

He is a rather good point guard who happens to be 6' 10". If he had a jumpshot of middling quality, he would be LeBron James, which he isn't at this point in time obviously. However he can rebound better than most point guards and defend a wider range of positions than pretty much any other PG because of his height and size while still having the athleticism and agility to be a point guard at that size, as well as court vison etc.

I think that Simmons is a good player, but i think that his impact is currently overrated. He has some crazy tools but he also has significant weaknesses that prevent him form using those tools in full measure. Having no jump shot seems like a single weakness but it is far from the truth. It is like having no ability to jump. Shooting doesnt only affect how much you can score but also affects how many offensive threats you have to create plays from. It also affects how useful you are without the ball by creating space and being able to finish plays that others create for you. Simmons is also a limited finisher at the rim. Mostly using his right hand even as he shoots jumpers with his left hand (he should switch to his right as he has far more touch with it). He is a limited offensive threat witch limits his playmaking options. He is also a good defender but again overrated due to his high rebound numbers. He is versatile but not as much as it would seam because he is a not a good rim protector or from what ive seen and is not so good at defending bigs.

I think that he is a good player but not as much as his stats portray him as and not better than Mitchell.

[Alatan]

So...to sum up:

1) Stats lie; and
2) Mitchell is better than Simmons because...because...because I said so.

Ladies and gentleman - welcome to the United States of America in 2018. Where stats lie, alternative facts rule, and if you say something long enough and loud enough, the value of fact-based arguments are drowned out.

And it is not just that this post is nothing but 100% subjective opinion, what is REALLY special is the poster actually comes out and says, in essence, “yeah...the statitistics say X, but I say that the statistics are not factual. They lie. So, I will simply choose to not recognize these statistics as having any value, because what I subjectively believe is the truth is all that matters.”

Awesome.

Box score stats are facts, king of if you exclude the subjective element of assists, fouls and some other plays. Advanced stats that try to calculate impact are not. They are conclusions using assumptions and broad correlations.

Player A getting 10 rebounds a game is a fact. Player B getting 9 rebounds a game is a fact. Player A is a better rebounder than player B is a conclusion and it might be wrong based on context. Or do you want to argue that Westbrook is a better rebounder than Adams?

It is clear that you do not understand advanced statistics and analytics. They aren’t “conclusions”. They are not based on assumptions. They are calculations of statistical outcomes. They are FACTS. They are mathematical formulas that analyze player and team production...and they are completely agnostic as to the subjective ish that you are throwing out there.

The issue is you don’t like what the FACTS say. You don’t like what the ANALYSIS shows. So, you do what is all-too-common in America today - you try to delegitimize the stats...say they “lie”. Say they don’t matter...because what REALLY matters is what you “think”...what you “feel”...and if you scream it loud enough, you hope to tear down the validity of what the stats say.

Nice.

I think that you FEEL that advanced statistics are facts. Advanced statistics try to calculate impact using the best available measurements in box score stats. Since box score stats tell a part of the story of what happened on the court but not how and why, so formulas are invented using assumptions and correlations to try to explain how much the player has actually affected the game. Or maybe you think that advanced stats formulas are the underlying rules of nature that govern the basketball reality?

[levon]

Good quote from an old data science/data visualizations book from a few years ago:

Date cannot lie, but it can deceive.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Who's better in 2018:

Josh Jackson - Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals, 2PT%
Jayson Tatum - Blocks, 3PT%, FT%

[Catchall]

They should just share the award, imo.

That would be a cop-out.

Then just give the award to Mitchell. Or give it to Jordan Bell. He's got the highest FG% of any rookie at 64.6% and averages over 9 rebounds and 2.4 blocks per 36 mins. Pretty impressive.

[michaelm]

Box score stats are facts, king of if you exclude the subjective element of assists, fouls and some other plays. Advanced stats that try to calculate impact are not. They are conclusions using assumptions and broad correlations.

Player A getting 10 rebounds a game is a fact. Player B getting 9 rebounds a game is a fact. Player A is a better rebounder than player B is a conclusion and it might be wrong based on context. Or do you want to argue that Westbrook is a better rebounder than Adams?

In which case Simmons, a player who threatens to have a triple double in most games, and has been getting same without playing much in the 4th quarter in recent games, must be a good player by your own argument, although paradoxically you have discounted his raw statistics as well in other posts.

He is a rather good point guard who happens to be 6' 10". If he had a jumpshot of middling quality, he would be LeBron James, which he isn't at this point in time obviously. However he can rebound better than most point guards and defend a wider range of positions than pretty much any other PG because of his height and size while still having the athleticism and agility to be a point guard at that size, as well as court vison etc.

I think that Simmons is a good player, but i think that his impact is currently overrated. He has some crazy tools but he also has significant weaknesses that prevent him form using those tools in full measure. Having no jump shot seems like a single weakness but it is far from the truth. It is like having no ability to jump. Shooting doesnt only affect how much you can score but also affects how many offensive threats you have to create plays from. It also affects how useful you are without the ball by creating space and being able to finish plays that others create for you. Simmons is also a limited finisher at the rim. Mostly using his right hand even as he shoots jumpers with his left hand (he should switch to his right as he has far more touch with it). He is a limited offensive threat witch limits his playmaking options. He is also a good defender but again overrated due to his high rebound numbers. He is versatile but not as much as it would seam because he is a not a good rim protector or from what ive seen and is not so good at defending bigs.

I think that he is a good player but not as much as his stats portray him as and not better than Mitchell.

He is contributing significantly to his team winning at a good rate, same as Mitchell, which is what is most important. I think Mitchell is closer to being the new Dwayne Wade than Simmons is to being the new Magic Johnston, but while he obviously would be even more valuable with a decent jump shot he already does much to help his team without such a shot.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but you ignore objective evidence that Simmons is a very valuable player while providing only subective arguments as to why you believe him to be over-rated, with your dismissal of his rebounding ability particularly convenient for your line of argument. It is hardly as if Embiid is forgoing rebounds as Adams perhaps does. I also don't see the problem with his finishing given he finishes at 69% inside 5 feet.

[LakersSoul]

Gary Payton's top 5 defensive guards.

1. Paul
2. Beverly
3. Smart
4. Rondo
5. Ball!!

You guys that dont watch the Lakers dont see it but Lonzo has been the defensive resurgence for the Lakers.

Watch on YouTube

[CoreyGallagher]

They should just share the award, imo.

That would be a cop-out.

Then just give the award to Mitchell. Or give it to Jordan Bell. He's got the highest FG% of any rookie at 64.6% and averages over 9 rebounds and 2.4 blocks per 36 mins. Pretty impressive.

Sharing the award isn't something that can be planned, voters will vote without knowing how the others have. They rank 1 through 3 and points are allotted based on placement, if those points happen to be a tied then they split the award. Unlikely, at least.

[deflated]

Can you point to any actual measure or a particular set of games this season to support your theories as 'Stats lie' ain't much of an argument.

Last game, for example, he was completely passive, yet his stats look good. 11 assists yet he created maybe 3-4 plays. The rest was passing to shooter without creating much advantage. Teams wrongly fear his drives and pack the pain against him witch gives shooters a slightly better but still contested shots. Once teams realize he is not LeBron and there is no need to pack so many players in the paint that advantage will be gone. Chandler alone has stopped a couple of his drives because he couldnt push him aside due to his bulk. Plumlee also stopped a couple of his drives. There is absolutely no need to have 2 help defenders when Simmons drives. Let him attempt to score every single time and he will tire out so quickly that he will be useless for the rest of the game.

This is the bit where no-one else is seeing what you see. Looking at the Nuggets game his assists included:
- a full-court pass to Belinelli from a rebound for the easy layup
- a bounce pass through 3 defenders to Amir for the easy layup
- working Chandler on the block then hitting TJ cutting down the lane for the easy layup
- leading Saric through 2 defenders in transition for the layup
- an odd sort of scoop pass/'statue of liberty'-type thing to a trailing Saric in transition
Those are not simple passes to well-covered shooters who happen to make a shot; when you cite that game as an example where he was passive and failed to create an advantage for his team it makes no sense.

Teams have had most of a season to look at him now. His scoring is slightly down but at higher efficiency; that is more than offset by a big jump in his assist numbers from around 7.5 to 10.5 apg in March. As teams have played him differently he has become more selective as a scorer while doing a great job of working his teammates into the offence. All this while playing 30+ minutes in a traditional PG role for one of the best 5-6 teams since the break. And don't forget the defence - he's the guy that has been taking LeBron and Westbrook for the best defensive team this side of Utah.

I get people who prefer Mitchell's scoring over Simmons' hybrid game, there are different ways to get it done. I can't understand someone arguing Simmons is an ineffective player in the face of a season's worth of evidence to the contrary.

[Alatan]

In which case Simmons, a player who threatens to have a triple double in most games, and has been getting same without playing much in the 4th quarter in recent games, must be a good player by your own argument, although paradoxically you have discounted his raw statistics as well in other posts.

He is a rather good point guard who happens to be 6' 10". If he had a jumpshot of middling quality, he would be LeBron James, which he isn't at this point in time obviously. However he can rebound better than most point guards and defend a wider range of positions than pretty much any other PG because of his height and size while still having the athleticism and agility to be a point guard at that size, as well as court vison etc.

I think that Simmons is a good player, but i think that his impact is currently overrated. He has some crazy tools but he also has significant weaknesses that prevent him form using those tools in full measure. Having no jump shot seems like a single weakness but it is far from the truth. It is like having no ability to jump. Shooting doesnt only affect how much you can score but also affects how many offensive threats you have to create plays from. It also affects how useful you are without the ball by creating space and being able to finish plays that others create for you. Simmons is also a limited finisher at the rim. Mostly using his right hand even as he shoots jumpers with his left hand (he should switch to his right as he has far more touch with it). He is a limited offensive threat witch limits his playmaking options. He is also a good defender but again overrated due to his high rebound numbers. He is versatile but not as much as it would seam because he is a not a good rim protector or from what ive seen and is not so good at defending bigs.

I think that he is a good player but not as much as his stats portray him as and not better than Mitchell.

He is contributing significantly to his team winning at a good rate, same as Mitchell, which is what is most important. I think Mitchell is closer to being the new Dwayne Wade than Simmons is to being the new Magic Johnston, but while he obviously would be even more valuable with a decent jump shot he already does much to help his team without such a shot.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but you ignore objective evidence that Simmons is a very valuable player while providing only subective arguments as to why you believe him to be over-rated, with your dismissal of his rebounding ability particularly convenient for your line of argument. It is hardly as if Embiid is forgoing rebounds as Adams perhaps does. I also don't see the problem with his finishing given he finishes at 69% inside 5 feet.

Fair enough, since i dont have concrete evidence to support my claims i will stop arguing about him. If he continues to produce the way he has after teams adjust to his play style and it is conductive of winning i will admit that i was wrong about him being overrated.

[Alatan]

Can you point to any actual measure or a particular set of games this season to support your theories as 'Stats lie' ain't much of an argument.

Last game, for example, he was completely passive, yet his stats look good. 11 assists yet he created maybe 3-4 plays. The rest was passing to shooter without creating much advantage. Teams wrongly fear his drives and pack the pain against him witch gives shooters a slightly better but still contested shots. Once teams realize he is not LeBron and there is no need to pack so many players in the paint that advantage will be gone. Chandler alone has stopped a couple of his drives because he couldnt push him aside due to his bulk. Plumlee also stopped a couple of his drives. There is absolutely no need to have 2 help defenders when Simmons drives. Let him attempt to score every single time and he will tire out so quickly that he will be useless for the rest of the game.

This is the bit where no-one else is seeing what you see. Looking at the Nuggets game his assists included:
- a full-court pass to Belinelli from a rebound for the easy layup
- a bounce pass through 3 defenders to Amir for the easy layup
- working Chandler on the block then hitting TJ cutting down the lane for the easy layup
- leading Saric through 2 defenders in transition for the layup
- an odd sort of scoop pass/'statue of liberty'-type thing to a trailing Saric in transition
Those are not simple passes to well-covered shooters who happen to make a shot; when you cite that game as an example where he was passive and failed to create an advantage for his team it makes no sense.

Teams have had most of a season to look at him now. His scoring is slightly down but at higher efficiency; that is more than offset by a big jump in his assist numbers from around 7.5 to 10.5 apg in March. As teams have played him differently he has become more selective as a scorer while doing a great job of working his teammates into the offence. All this while playing 30+ minutes in a traditional PG role for one of the best 5-6 teams since the break. And don't forget the defence - he's the guy that has been taking LeBron and Westbrook for the best defensive team this side of Utah.

I get people who prefer Mitchell's scoring over Simmons' hybrid game, there are different ways to get it done. I can't understand someone arguing Simmons is an ineffective player in the face of a season's worth of evidence to the contrary.

Ok it was not 3-4 but 4-5 plays. And the rest 6-7? Maybe small windows of opportunity is all his teammates need and Simmons provides that gravity in a way any other slasher couldnt.

I wouldnt call him ineffective but overrated as his role could be filled by players of lesser renown. 76ers are built perfectly for his game and i think teams have yet to adjust to his play style making the stats portray it as his impact on the team and not the other way around. But that again is a subjective opinion so il leave it be.

Lets see how he fairs in the playoffs and il admit if i was wrong.

[deflated]

Last game, for example, he was completely passive, yet his stats look good. 11 assists yet he created maybe 3-4 plays. The rest was passing to shooter without creating much advantage. Teams wrongly fear his drives and pack the pain against him witch gives shooters a slightly better but still contested shots. Once teams realize he is not LeBron and there is no need to pack so many players in the paint that advantage will be gone. Chandler alone has stopped a couple of his drives because he couldnt push him aside due to his bulk. Plumlee also stopped a couple of his drives. There is absolutely no need to have 2 help defenders when Simmons drives. Let him attempt to score every single time and he will tire out so quickly that he will be useless for the rest of the game.

This is the bit where no-one else is seeing what you see. Looking at the Nuggets game his assists included:
- a full-court pass to Belinelli from a rebound for the easy layup
- a bounce pass through 3 defenders to Amir for the easy layup
- working Chandler on the block then hitting TJ cutting down the lane for the easy layup
- leading Saric through 2 defenders in transition for the layup
- an odd sort of scoop pass/'statue of liberty'-type thing to a trailing Saric in transition
Those are not simple passes to well-covered shooters who happen to make a shot; when you cite that game as an example where he was passive and failed to create an advantage for his team it makes no sense.

Teams have had most of a season to look at him now. His scoring is slightly down but at higher efficiency; that is more than offset by a big jump in his assist numbers from around 7.5 to 10.5 apg in March. As teams have played him differently he has become more selective as a scorer while doing a great job of working his teammates into the offence. All this while playing 30+ minutes in a traditional PG role for one of the best 5-6 teams since the break. And don't forget the defence - he's the guy that has been taking LeBron and Westbrook for the best defensive team this side of Utah.

I get people who prefer Mitchell's scoring over Simmons' hybrid game, there are different ways to get it done. I can't understand someone arguing Simmons is an ineffective player in the face of a season's worth of evidence to the contrary.

Ok it was not 3-4 but 4-5 plays. And the rest 6-7? Maybe small windows of opportunity is all his teammates need and Simmons provides that gravity in a way any other slasher couldnt.

I wouldnt call him ineffective but overrated as his role could be filled by players of lesser renown. 76ers are built perfectly for his game and i think teams have yet to adjust to his play style making the stats portray it as his impact on the team and not the other way around. But that again is a subjective opinion so il leave it be.

Lets see how he fairs in the playoffs and il admit if i was wrong.

Where else are Philly going to find a 6'-10" PG who is a superior perimeter defender? He lets them run out their ridiculously long starting unit that is +20 per 100 poss. in over 600 minutes together.

Sorry, you're moving the goalposts - you're trying to select evidence to support your subjective opinion. Re-evaluating the evidence may help.

[phifans]

I wouldnt call him ineffective but overrated as his role could be filled by players of lesser renown. 76ers are built perfectly for his game and i think teams have yet to adjust to his play style making the stats portray it as his impact on the team and not the other way around. But that again is a subjective opinion so il leave it be.

Lets see how he fairs in the playoffs and il admit if i was wrong.

This is the first year Simmons play Point Guard in his whole career.

There is no other "players of lesser renown" in this planet could do this like him, period.

[JellosJigglin]

Gary Payton's top 5 defensive guards.

1. Paul
2. Beverly
3. Smart
4. Rondo
5. Ball!!

You guys that dont watch the Lakers dont see it but Lonzo has been the defensive resurgence for the Lakers.

Watch on YouTube

Zo's defense is legit and already elite. I believe he's #1 in DRPM among all point guards right now, not just rookies. I know all people focus on is scoring but damn he's been fun to watch. Great rookie class.

[downtownpie]

I wouldnt call him ineffective but overrated as his role could be filled by players of lesser renown. 76ers are built perfectly for his game and i think teams have yet to adjust to his play style making the stats portray it as his impact on the team and not the other way around. But that again is a subjective opinion so il leave it be.

Lets see how he fairs in the playoffs and il admit if i was wrong.

This is the first year Simmons play Point Guard in his whole career.

There is no other "players of lesser renown" in this planet could do this like him, period.

Its a very underrated point that Simmons debut at PG is his rookie nba campaign.