WIZ GET MARKIEFF MORRIS...............

[montestewart]

Not guilty, so he won't be suspended.

If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit.

If Kieff was baked, the evidence was faked
If there's smoke in the bong, he did no wrong
If he was smoking a blunt, he coulnt have dunt
If he was too high, he ain't your guy

[payitforward]

Is it wrong that I kinda wanted Kieff to be fully exonerated, while still having his brother catch a guilty verdict? Sure, I don't ever want an innocent man to be wrongfully convicted -- but a guy in the C's rotation? Hmm...

Let me think... yes, it's wrong.

The correct moral position, in fact, was to want Marcus to be exonerated & Kieff to be found guilty. Marcus makes Boston worse. Kieff off the floor makes us better.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Not guilty, so he won't be suspended.

If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit.

If Kieff was baked, the evidence was faked
If there's smoke in the bong, he did no wrong
If he was smoking a blunt, he coulnt have dunt
If he was too high, he ain't your guy

If the spliff was lit, you must acquit.

[I_Like_Dirt]

If Mahinmi is healthy, I have to think he'll play 2000 minutes. He plays at a much higher level than Smith; the C position would be very solid.

It's worth noting that Mahinmi has never played 1850+ minutes in a season ever. It would be nice, and is possible, but it isn't particularly likely.

[J-Ves]

Is it wrong that I kinda wanted Kieff to be fully exonerated, while still having his brother catch a guilty verdict? Sure, I don't ever want an innocent man to be wrongfully convicted -- but a guy in the C's rotation? Hmm...

Let me think... yes, it's wrong.

The correct moral position, in fact, was to want Marcus to be exonerated & Kieff to be found guilty. Marcus makes Boston worse. Kieff off the floor makes us better.

Until you realize Kieff is the only PF on the roster and the only guy keeping Jae’Shawn Smif from getting 30+ minutes a night.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[leswizards]

Big surprise, EG wasted a first round pick on Morris. He has only had 11 good games this year, and his reputation for being a malcontent prevents Brooks from sticking him on the end of bench where he belongs and giving increased minutes to Sato, Oubre and Scott who are all playing very well this year.

[payitforward]

Big surprise, EG wasted a first round pick on Morris. He has only had 11 good games this year, and his reputation for being a malcontent prevents Brooks from sticking him on the end of bench where he belongs and giving increased minutes to Sato, Oubre and Scott who are all playing very well this year.

Markieff is not a good player, but I'm not seeing anything whatever to support the idea that he's a malcontent. From what one can tell by watching games, timeouts, banter, etc., & from what one hears, he seems to get along great with his teammates & to be well liked.

As well, Kieff is averaging only 23.6 minutes per game this year, so he's already a good bit down from last year -- yet, as I say, there's no evidence of any interpersonal problems. Oubre is averaging over 27 minutes, Scott almost 20, & Sato over 17. In Oubre's case, that makes him 3d in total minutes on the team.

Don't get me wrong -- all 3 of those guys are better than Markieff. I just don't think they're being shorted minutes b/c Kieff is a malcontent.

Who knows to what degree Markieff Morris ever deserved the rap hung on him for bad behavior? But he needs to be able to shed it; I don't think it's fair to hang it on him as a Wizard.

(edit: OTOH, you are certainly right that trading a R1 lottery pick for Kieff was idiotic)

[pcbothwel]

Just giving a quick bump to this. Not the biggest Kieff fan, and the way he started the season was terrible. But since Dec 1 (50 games), Kieff is averaging a per 36 of:
15.5 / 7.5 / 2.5 / 1

On percentages of:
50/40/82
TS: 60%

Depending on what he gives us in the playoffs as well as next year in either production or trade, I'd say the trade wasn't as bad as we all initially thought
Still terrible value for the pick at the time, but still...

[nate33]

Just giving a quick bump to this. Not the biggest Kieff fan, and the way he started the season was terrible. But since Dec 1 (50 games), Kieff is averaging a per 36 of:
15.5 / 7.5 / 2.5 / 1

On percentages of:
50/40/82
TS: 60%

Depending on what he gives us in the playoffs as well as next year in either production or trade, I'd say the trade wasn't as bad as we all initially thought
Still terrible value for the pick at the time, but still...

Clint Capela and Gary Harris are the only guy picked after us (Phoenix) in that first round that I really regret losing out on. Of course, one also has to factor that we could have afforded to pay the pick plus another $5M a year free agent for the money we spent on Morris. Morris is arguably better than 15 of the next 17 guys picked after #14, but is he better than one of those guys plus a random $5M a year free agent?

Overall, I think the trade was justifiable in hindset. It wasn't a slam dunk win for us, nor was it an embarrassing waste of assets. It was a mild overpay where we traded a high risk/high reward asset for a known quantity at a position that could help us. It was boring and a little short-sighted, but not a franchise-killing trade. It certainly wasn't a blunder like the Mahinmi signing, or the Mike Miller trade, or the Vesely draft.

[payitforward]

Just giving a quick bump to this. Not the biggest Kieff fan, and the way he started the season was terrible. But since Dec 1 (50 games), Kieff is averaging a per 36 of:
15.5 / 7.5 / 2.5 / 1

On percentages of:
50/40/82
TS: 60%

Depending on what he gives us in the playoffs as well as next year in either production or trade, I'd say the trade wasn't as bad as we all initially thought
Still terrible value for the pick at the time, but still...

Clint Capela and Gary Harris are the only guy picked after us (Phoenix) in that first round that I really regret losing out on. Of course, one also has to factor that we could have afforded to pay the pick plus another $5M a year free agent for the money we spent on Morris. Morris is arguably better than 15 of the next 17 guys picked after #14, but is he better than one of those guys plus a random $5M a year free agent?

Overall, I think the trade was justifiable in hindset. It wasn't a slam dunk win for us, nor was it an embarrassing waste of assets. It was a mild overpay where we traded a high risk/high reward asset for a known quantity at a position that could help us. It was boring and a little short-sighted, but not a franchise-killing trade. It certainly wasn't a blunder like the Mahinmi signing, or the Mike Miller trade, or the Vesely draft.

After a slow start, Markieff is having his best year since '13-14, which was the best year of his career. All the same, don't get me wrong, he wasn't even an average producer that year, & he isn't anywhere near an average producer this year. But, he is certainly playing better than he has for many years.

Obviously, the better Kieff plays the better it is for the Wizards. But, the things you guys point out have no bearing on whether we made a good trade to acquire him. For one thing, his value at the time would have been based on his play to that point & on his perceived value by the Suns. You have to judge "the trade" (not Kieff) on those grounds. Phoenix had been trying to deal him all season & had no takers. We gave a lottery pick for him.

In any case, nate, you are remembering the wrong draft! You've conflated the Gortat trade w/ the trade for Kieff. I'd much rather have Denzel Valentine, Juan Hernangomez, Gerschon Yabusele, Henry Ellenson, Ante Zizic, Dejounte Murry, Pascal Siakam, Damian Jones, Deyonta Davis, Ivica Zubac, Taylor Ulis, Malcolm Brogdon or Patrick McCaw than Markieff Morris.

In other words... it was an absolutely terrible trade. Awful.

[nate33]

Just giving a quick bump to this. Not the biggest Kieff fan, and the way he started the season was terrible. But since Dec 1 (50 games), Kieff is averaging a per 36 of:
15.5 / 7.5 / 2.5 / 1

On percentages of:
50/40/82
TS: 60%

Depending on what he gives us in the playoffs as well as next year in either production or trade, I'd say the trade wasn't as bad as we all initially thought
Still terrible value for the pick at the time, but still...

Clint Capela and Gary Harris are the only guy picked after us (Phoenix) in that first round that I really regret losing out on. Of course, one also has to factor that we could have afforded to pay the pick plus another $5M a year free agent for the money we spent on Morris. Morris is arguably better than 15 of the next 17 guys picked after #14, but is he better than one of those guys plus a random $5M a year free agent?

Overall, I think the trade was justifiable in hindset. It wasn't a slam dunk win for us, nor was it an embarrassing waste of assets. It was a mild overpay where we traded a high risk/high reward asset for a known quantity at a position that could help us. It was boring and a little short-sighted, but not a franchise-killing trade. It certainly wasn't a blunder like the Mahinmi signing, or the Mike Miller trade, or the Vesely draft.

After a slow start, Markieff is having his best year since '13-14, which was the best year of his career. All the same, don't get me wrong, he wasn't even an average producer that year, & he isn't anywhere near an average producer this year. But, he is certainly playing better than he has for many years.

Obviously, the better Kieff plays the better it is for the Wizards. But, the things you guys point out have no bearing on whether we made a good trade to acquire him. For one thing, his value at the time would have been based on his play to that point & on his perceived value by the Suns. You have to judge "the trade" (not Kieff) on those grounds. Phoenix had been trying to deal him all season & had no takers. We gave a lottery pick for him.

In any case, nate, you are remembering the wrong draft! You've conflated the Gortat trade w/ the trade for Kieff. I'd much rather have Denzel Valentine, Juan Hernangomez, Gerschon Yabusele, Henry Ellenson, Ante Zizic, Dejounte Murry, Pascal Siakam, Damian Jones, Deyonta Davis, Ivica Zubac, Taylor Ulis, Malcolm Brogdon or Patrick McCaw than Markieff Morris.

In other words... it was an absolutely terrible trade. Awful.

You're right. I mixed up the Gortat and Morris trades.

Though to be honest, there aren't many players from the 2016 draft that I'm depressed about missing out on. The only two first round picks picked #14 or later who have posted even half as many win shares as Morris did the last 2 years are LeVert and Siakam. The only guy picked 14-30 who posted a better WS/100 than Morris (over 1000 minutes or more) is Siakam. And that's using WS/100, which is a stat that I think underrates Morris' true impact a bit.

[payitforward]

...there aren't many players from the 2016 draft that I'm depressed about missing out on. The only two first round picks picked #14 or later who have posted even half as many win shares as Morris did the last 2 years are LeVert and Siakam. The only guy picked 14-30 who posted a better WS/100 than Morris (over 1000 minutes or more) is Siakam. And that's using WS/100, which is a stat that I think underrates Morris' true impact a bit.

Win shares?
WS/100?

How are these metrics calculated? If we don't know, then we can't give them any meaning at all. &, in fact, I don't give them any. Win shares in particular is an utterly meaningless stat; it can't be tested in any way.

The only "true impact" -- positive impact -- a player can have on team wins is via the numbers he puts up. We saw Kieff come in 2 years ago & have no effect on wins whatever. We brought him in, gave up no other player that season, & didn't improve at all.

But, I bet you he's credited with some "win shares".

I actually like Kieff. I've objected over & over to people speculating that he's a negative influence in the locker room or, worse, some kind of "thug." So, it's not that I'm some kind of Markieff Morris hater. I'm not. But, I'm also going to call things like they are.

In any case, the key question here isn't Kieff -- it's the trade for Kieff. No matter whether how good or bad a player is, there is still some way to assess his objective value & to work out what might be a reasonable price to pay for him. Or, put the other way, to ask what is reasonable value to get back for something: in this case for a lottery pick.

Kieff isn't reasonable value back for a lottery pick. Not by a long shot.

Now... you made the point that this move wasn't as bad as signing Mahinmi. That's true. & it wasn't as bad as signing Nicholson for 4 guaranteed years @$6.5m/year. It wasn't as bad as trading a r2 pick for Trey Burke. It wasn't as bad as giving up a R1 pick for 6 weeks of Bojan Bogdanovic. It wasn't as bad as guaranteeing Jason Smith 3 years at more $$ than he'd ever made.

But it was bad all the same.

[dckingsfan]

Kieff isn't reasonable value back for a lottery pick. Not by a long shot.

Now... you made the point that this move wasn't as bad as signing Mahinmi. That's true. & it wasn't as bad as signing Nicholson for 4 guaranteed years @$6.5m/year. It wasn't as bad as trading a r2 pick for Trey Burke. It wasn't as bad as giving up a R1 pick for 6 weeks of Bojan Bogdanovic. It wasn't as bad as guaranteeing Jason Smith 3 years at more $$ than he'd ever made.

But it was bad all the same.

That is a lot of bad...