2017-2018 OKC Thunder Regular Season Thread Part Deux: Follow the Melo Brick Road

[bondom34]

Agree there, the bench is and has historically been a (the?) big issue

[slick_watts]

Agree there, the bench is and has historically been a (the?) big issue

since kd's foot year, at least. when reggie was traded for dion is when it collapsed imo, and it's been awful since. the team got progressively more and more top heavy.

patrick patterson has been a disappointment. so i do think there is some element of 'this guy does worse when he's here' going on.

you know it's bad when we get corey brewer and his name is in the rafters after his first five games.

[bondom34]

Agree there, the bench is and has historically been a (the?) big issue

since kd's foot year, at least. when reggie was traded for dion is when it collapsed imo, and it's been awful since. the team got progressively more and more top heavy.

patrick patterson has been a disappointment. so i do think there is some element of 'this guy does worse when he's here' going on.

you know it's bad when we get corey brewer and his name is in the rafters after his first five games.

Yeah I'm trying to think prior and it wasn't at least as big an issue. I'm blanking on the prior year or so but I know w Harden it wasn't and that wasn't too far prior.

Patterson I attribute somewhat to being misused as I think he could be better, but he's still been a massive bummer. And you're telling me Brewer's 50% 3 point shooting wasn't going to sustain? I, for one, am shocked.

[spearsy23]

Agree there, the bench is and has historically been a (the?) big issue

since kd's foot year, at least. when reggie was traded for dion is when it collapsed imo, and it's been awful since. the team got progressively more and more top heavy.

patrick patterson has been a disappointment. so i do think there is some element of 'this guy does worse when he's here' going on.

you know it's bad when we get corey brewer and his name is in the rafters after his first five games.

Yeah I'm trying to think prior and it wasn't at least as big an issue. I'm blanking on the prior year or so but I know w Harden it wasn't and that wasn't too far prior.

Patterson I attribute somewhat to being misused as I think he could be better, but he's still been a massive bummer. And you're telling me Brewer's 50% 3 point shooting wasn't going to sustain? I, for one, am shocked.

The year you're missing is the K-Mart year.

[bondom34]

since kd's foot year, at least. when reggie was traded for dion is when it collapsed imo, and it's been awful since. the team got progressively more and more top heavy.

patrick patterson has been a disappointment. so i do think there is some element of 'this guy does worse when he's here' going on.

you know it's bad when we get corey brewer and his name is in the rafters after his first five games.

Yeah I'm trying to think prior and it wasn't at least as big an issue. I'm blanking on the prior year or so but I know w Harden it wasn't and that wasn't too far prior.

Patterson I attribute somewhat to being misused as I think he could be better, but he's still been a massive bummer. And you're telling me Brewer's 50% 3 point shooting wasn't going to sustain? I, for one, am shocked.

The year you're missing is the K-Mart year.

Ah that's right, for some reason I blanked he was there and that's their best team.

[High level]

Have the Thunder ever tried to go with a Russ, PG, Melo, Patterson and Adams lineup? Because Melo at the 4 maybe the problem most nights. Melo can stretch the floor but he doesn't have the motor like Draymond to be effective playing long periods at the pf position. Imo Melo is better suited at Small Foward.

[getrichordie]

113.5 ortg with Westbrook on the court. As per usual the offense with Russ is not an issue. Defense without Roberson and offense without Westbrook is atrocious. I've never seen any other team that was entirely dependant on one player on both ends.

Lack of depth at SG. Lack of role players on bench.

And everything runs through Westbrook when he’s on the court because w/o ball in his hands he’s literally useless on offense.

If you want a different system, you are going to have to ask Westbrook (which FO is scared to confront) to start running off of screens and producing off-ball action. What you are seeing is everyone else running off-ball action and coming off of screens besides Westbrook and Westbrook playing P&R w/ Adams because that’s all that Westbrook can do so the offense is catered to him. And why not? He’s the supermax player we all wanted right?




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[Pillendreher]

As per usual the offense with Russ is not an issue. [...] offense without Westbrook is atrocious.

And everything runs through Westbrook when he’s on the court because w/o ball in his hands he’s literally useless on offense.

Gotta freshen up those reading skills, man. Or maybe ease up on the hating. Whatever helps you comprehend stuff like this.

If you want a different system, you are going to have to ask Westbrook (which FO is scared to confront) to start running off of screens and producing off-ball action. What you are seeing is everyone else running off-ball action and coming off of screens besides Westbrook and Westbrook playing P&R w/ Adams because that’s all that Westbrook can do so the offense is catered to him. And why not? He’s the supermax player we all wanted right?

You're dying on this hill, huh?

[Kizz Fastfists]

The problem isn't the talent on the roster. The problem is the coaching. We think we want a better bench, but do we need better players on the bench or just the current ones to be used properly? Look at Sabonis. He was probably never going to become the player he is in Indy while playing for Donovan.

[wco81]

Lack of depth at SG.

Did they consider keeping Waiters?

I guess he didn't get too much interest in free agency so got a short deal with the Heat before playing well on that short deal.

Waiters played better in the playoffs with OKC than in the regular season IIRC.

[Kizz Fastfists]

Did they consider keeping Waiters?

No. They traded for Oladipo to upgrade from him. Then kd left and they pulled the QO so they could give Russ a raise. In theory, they could have the current roster plus Waiters, assuming the raise on that 1+1 wasn't a condition of him committing long-term in a handshake deal.

If kd stays then they have Roberson, kd, Oladipo and Abrines as their wing rotation and they probably take Annunoby instead of Ferguson as that would have been more in line with Presti's drafting history. That is a good group of wings. OG would have made sense as a Roberson backup given OKC would have still had kd's offense and Presti probably takes the higher floor defensive guy over the higher ceiling potential of Ferguson.

[bondom34]

GROSs solution is trade Westbrook for mediocre players. Donovan is great and they just need a pg who can be not Westbrook. Maybe a Darren Collison. Nah Indy wouldn't downgrade

[High level]

Don't see why they don't slide PG to the sg and melo to the sf.

[Pillendreher]

The problem isn't the talent on the roster. The problem is the coaching. We think we want a better bench, but do we need better players on the bench or just the current ones to be used properly? Look at Sabonis. He was probably never going to become the player he is in Indy while playing for Donovan.

The talent certainly isn't ideal. But going through basically three complete rosters in 3 seasons and seeing close to no change is not a good look for the coaching staff.

Since Donovan became head coach, the Thunder have played a total of 2966 minutes with both Durant and Westbrook off the court. In those >5500 possessions, their ORtG is 102.7 (per nbawowy).
Their ORtG seems to be like 5 pp100p higher than stats.nba.com's (I've checked it with multiple variables), so you're basically looking at ~98 ORtG over a 3 year sample without a Top 5 player on the floor. And again, that's with 28 different players getting at least 50 minuts without those two on the floor. That includes Kanter, that includes Oladipo, that includes Melo and that includes George.

If everything were on Westbrook, this would not be possible. This is basically the Roberson argument applied to the1 other side of the floor. It can't be a single guy's fault if everything goes to **** without him on the floor
If there was this secret system we just refuse to see, things would be running smoothly without the malcontent on the floor, right? But let me guess: Just like with Roberson, when they didn't become a +50 NetRtG team with him being out, the next step is to blame the replacement. So instead of the 'Well, a random guy off the street could be better than Roberson; oh, Abrines isn't, but the next guy certainly will!' line, we'll hear the 'Well, if George Hill were here, those bench lineups would have worked without him on the floor' and so on and so forth.

At some point, you're just gonna have to look at the one constant through close to 40 different players in three (!) years:

[Kizz Fastfists]

GROSs solution is trade Westbrook for mediocre players. Donovan is great and they just need a pg who can be not Westbrook. Maybe a Darren Collison. Nah Indy wouldn't downgrade

I do wonder if Donovan wouldn't a better coach with a rebuilding roster where he could instill a system while being seen as an authority figure over young guys. Russ, PG and Melo are veterans that clearly do not respect him and/or think they know more. I'm not saying Donovan would actually have a system, but if he does get another job on a different team it would be interesting to see how they played. I believe Russ is beyond coaching at this point and set in his ways. I blame a lot of that on Brooks for not forcing an offense on him when he was young. Donovan COULD have come in benching Russ every time he took a stupid early shot clock 3 and forced the issue, but he didn't.

Brooks, for all his faults about the lack of an offensive system, always seemed to maximize his rosters. I'm not calling him a great coach, but he isn't a disaster like Donovan. He's doing well in Washington with Wall missing 40 games. I always through Brooks in a 2nd tier of coaches behind guys like Pop and Brad Stevens who have great systems to go with their talent and can maximize their role players. It is why I was never for getting rid of Brooks. It wasn't that Brooks was ever going to become a Phil Jackson, but he was never going to become Donovan either. Getting rid of Brooks without bringing in a coach that would be just as good was never going to be easy. D'Antonio was probably the only option at the time for an equal or better coach.

[Kizz Fastfists]

Don't see why they don't slide PG to the sg and melo to the sf.

It doesn't work. If you plug in Grant at PF instead of Brewer at SG you lose 4 points per 100 possessions. That is on top of the 9 points per 100 they lose going from Roberson to Brewer. Donovan hasn't played Patterson in that situation enough to see how that works, although Russ-PG-Melo-PPat-Adams is a good theoretical lineup it is just more fun for Donovan to throw things out there that make no sense to see the expected failure.

[bondom34]

GROSs solution is trade Westbrook for mediocre players. Donovan is great and they just need a pg who can be not Westbrook. Maybe a Darren Collison. Nah Indy wouldn't downgrade

I do wonder if Donovan wouldn't a better coach with a rebuilding roster where he could instill a system while being seen as an authority figure over young guys. Russ, PG and Melo are veterans that clearly do not respect him and/or think they know more. I'm not saying Donovan would actually have a system, but if he does get another job on a different team it would be interesting to see how they played. I believe Russ is beyond coaching at this point and set in his ways. I blame a lot of that on Brooks for not forcing an offense on him when he was young. Donovan COULD have come in benching Russ every time he took a stupid early shot clock 3 and forced the issue, but he didn't.

Brooks, for all his faults about the lack of an offensive system, always seemed to maximize his rosters. I'm not calling him a great coach, but he isn't a disaster like Donovan. He's doing well in Washington with Wall missing 40 games. I always through Brooks in a 2nd tier of coaches behind guys like Pop and Brad Stevens who have great systems to go with their talent and can maximize their role players. It is why I was never for getting rid of Brooks. It wasn't that Brooks was ever going to become a Phil Jackson, but he was never going to become Donovan either. Getting rid of Brooks without bringing in a coach that would be just as good was never going to be easy. D'Antonio was probably the only option at the time for an equal or better coach.

Hrs college coach so I don't doubt this. And Brooks got respect fromvets for all his faults. I do think Russ had been open to change though. He tried taking a step back early season and the offense stunk. O think he would be willing

[anthony00]

GROSs solution is trade Westbrook for mediocre players. Donovan is great and they just need a pg who can be not Westbrook. Maybe a Darren Collison. Nah Indy wouldn't downgrade

I do wonder if Donovan wouldn't a better coach with a rebuilding roster where he could instill a system while being seen as an authority figure over young guys. Russ, PG and Melo are veterans that clearly do not respect him and/or think they know more. I'm not saying Donovan would actually have a system, but if he does get another job on a different team it would be interesting to see how they played. I believe Russ is beyond coaching at this point and set in his ways. I blame a lot of that on Brooks for not forcing an offense on him when he was young. Donovan COULD have come in benching Russ every time he took a stupid early shot clock 3 and forced the issue, but he didn't.

Brooks, for all his faults about the lack of an offensive system, always seemed to maximize his rosters. I'm not calling him a great coach, but he isn't a disaster like Donovan. He's doing well in Washington with Wall missing 40 games. I always through Brooks in a 2nd tier of coaches behind guys like Pop and Brad Stevens who have great systems to go with their talent and can maximize their role players. It is why I was never for getting rid of Brooks. It wasn't that Brooks was ever going to become a Phil Jackson, but he was never going to become Donovan either. Getting rid of Brooks without bringing in a coach that would be just as good was never going to be easy. D'Antonio was probably the only option at the time for an equal or better coach.

Hrs college coach so I don't doubt this. And Brooks got respect fromvets for all his faults. I do think Russ had been open to change though. He tried taking a step back early season and the offense stunk. O think he would be willing

are you guys serious !!!??! Westbrook for Collison

[High level]

Don't see why they don't slide PG to the sg and melo to the sf.

It doesn't work. If you plug in Grant at PF instead of Brewer at SG you lose 4 points per 100 possessions. That is on top of the 9 points per 100 they lose going from Roberson to Brewer. Donovan hasn't played Patterson in that situation enough to see how that works, although Russ-PG-Melo-PPat-Adams is a good theoretical lineup it is just more fun for Donovan to throw things out there that make no sense to see the expected failure.

Is he that bad of a coach? Lol I was playing 2K18 with the Thunder and it doesn't work with Melo at the pf so I went with Russ, PG, Melo, PP, Adams and it worked out much better for me. I know it's 2k but he should at least tried it. Patterson should be eager and hungry for minutes and you obviously get better production at the sg spot and you add more size and length to your lineup.

[Pillendreher]

Don't see why they don't slide PG to the sg and melo to the sf.

It doesn't work. If you plug in Grant at PF instead of Brewer at SG you lose 4 points per 100 possessions. That is on top of the 9 points per 100 they lose going from Roberson to Brewer. Donovan hasn't played Patterson in that situation enough to see how that works, although Russ-PG-Melo-PPat-Adams is a good theoretical lineup it is just more fun for Donovan to throw things out there that make no sense to see the expected failure.

Is he that bad of a coach? Lol I was playing 2K18 with the Thunder and it doesn't work with Melo at the pf so I went with Russ, PG, Melo, PP, Adams and it worked out much better for me. I know it's 2k but he should at least tried it. Patterson should be eager and hungry for minutes and you obviously get better production at the sg spot and you add more size and length to your lineup.

Wether things work or don't does not matter all that much to Donovan. It's what he thinks should work is what is driving his lineup decisions.