"A Tale of 2 Hardawayz"

[E-Balla]

look, if your point is that timmy could be the 3rd option with duncan or lebron in his prime and win. you're right. that seems possible. but kp is not and will never be duncan or lebron in his prime. i can tell you that right now. i'm sure. and no, i'm not saying dump kp. he certainly can be a 2nd or 3rd option. a much better one than timmy.

I don't care how good anyone thinks Tim is or can be. If he’s your third best player, he better be on a rookie scale contract. What kinda backward as **** is paying your third best guy top guy money when you don’t have a #2 in place and you don’t even know if your #1 is a #1 or a #2?

4 years, $72 million ain't top guy money its peanuts compared to top guy money. Curry just gotra 5 year, $201 million deal. Millsap got 3 years, $90 million. Embiid got 5 years, $148 million. That's top guy money.

[Capn'O]

i see people actually thinking willy is good now.

He's good enough to get minutes as a backup which means we fuqqed up financially. Same reason we fuqqed up by not resigning Holiday. Not because either were some magical player. Between Kyle, Kanter, and Noah we're gonna be paying $44 million to centers next year.

Spoiler:

$47 million, if you count Carter.

That's absolute madness. Especially when we had one for $1.5 million.

[Marty McFly]

look, if your point is that timmy could be the 3rd option with duncan or lebron in his prime and win. you're right. that seems possible. but kp is not and will never be duncan or lebron in his prime. i can tell you that right now. i'm sure. and no, i'm not saying dump kp. he certainly can be a 2nd or 3rd option. a much better one than timmy.

I don't care how good anyone thinks Tim is or can be. If he’s your third best player, he better be on a rookie scale contract. What kinda backward as **** is paying your third best guy top guy money when you don’t have a #2 in place and you don’t even know if your #1 is a #1 or a #2?

4 years, $72 million ain't top guy money its peanuts compared to top guy money. Curry just gotra 5 year, $201 million deal. Millsap got 3 years, $90 million. Embiid got 5 years, $148 million. That's top guy money.

i know what a max is. I'm talking about him being one of the highest paid on your team.

[Marty McFly]

Mills paid Tim that money on the premise that he'd needed to improve to be worth that money. the man been Tim Hardaway's son his whole life ad never learned his daddy's crossover. that **** was a terrible gamble.

[E-Balla]

i see people actually thinking willy is good now.

He's good enough to get minutes as a backup which means we fuqqed up financially. Same reason we fuqqed up by not resigning Holiday. Not because either were some magical player. Between Kyle, Kanter, and Noah we're gonna be paying $44 million to centers next year.

Spoiler:

$47 million, if you count Carter.

That's absolute madness. Especially when we had one for $1.5 million.

Don't forget we also traded RoLo and his $13 mil cap hit to get space for Noah. If we kept Rolo and Willy we'd have $15.5 million locked up in a better rotation.

[E-Balla]

I don't care how good anyone thinks Tim is or can be. If he’s your third best player, he better be on a rookie scale contract. What kinda backward as **** is paying your third best guy top guy money when you don’t have a #2 in place and you don’t even know if your #1 is a #1 or a #2?

4 years, $72 million ain't top guy money its peanuts compared to top guy money. Curry just gotra 5 year, $201 million deal. Millsap got 3 years, $90 million. Embiid got 5 years, $148 million. That's top guy money.

i know what a max is. I'm talking about him being one of the highest paid on your team.

A 55 win team has Serge Ibaka making 21 million right now. I'm not seeing it. Plus Tim is 3rd on our payroll.

[Marty McFly]

look, if your point is that timmy could be the 3rd option with duncan or lebron in his prime and win. you're right. that seems possible. but kp is not and will never be duncan or lebron in his prime. i can tell you that right now. i'm sure. and no, i'm not saying dump kp. he certainly can be a 2nd or 3rd option. a much better one than timmy.

If KP isn't a first option we should dump him because we will have to give him the max after next season and unless he's worth more than the max we won't be able to build anything championship level. That's just how the league works. The max contract has been around since 99 and outside of the 04 Pistons (who can't be built anymore since the league tilted the balance towards offense through rule changes) Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Timmy, Curry, Shaq, and KG have been the best/highest paid player on every championship team and all of them are top 20-30ish players ever peak for peak and MVPs. Only Wade who was on a rookie contract doesn't apply. You're not winning unless your max contract guy is outperforming the max and you can't fit more than 2 max guys on a team. Giving one max to KP means we'll have to draft the other because we won't have cap space at all thanks to Phil.

I'd rather pay KP the max to be our second best player, than pay Tim what he gets paid to be a number 3, and every team in the league would too. you don't trade your best player for the sake of cap management. the boat sailed on being savvy with the cap the moment phil signed Noah and Mills signed Tim.

on the bright side, barring extending kanter, Kyle, the knicks are in position to have a lot of capspace a year after extending KP, while Tim's PO is up.

[Marty McFly]

4 years, $72 million ain't top guy money its peanuts compared to top guy money. Curry just gotra 5 year, $201 million deal. Millsap got 3 years, $90 million. Embiid got 5 years, $148 million. That's top guy money.

i know what a max is. I'm talking about him being one of the highest paid on your team.

A 55 win team has Serge Ibaka making 21 million right now. I'm not seeing it. Plus Tim is 3rd on our payroll.

and a 2 time championship winning team is paying klay thompson the same money tim is getting paid.

is the goal to win 55 games and to max out as a 2nd round/conference finals team, or is the goal to win a championship?

[Spree2Houston]

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

Yeah its not a good buisness model especially when you are a lottery team and looking to trade someone like Melo. It really made no sense.

if you are already a contender and/or have your core in place then sometimes it makes sense to pay a guy like that.

You guys don't understand that after next year we have to sign KP. To a max deal. If Timmy wasn't on the books we'd have only 17 million in the 2018 free agency and 10 million in the 2019 free agency (assuming we resign KP). Who are we getting for 17 this year or 10 million the year after better than Timmy? Please elaborate for me?

That's what y'all don't get. Noah/Lance/Lee/Kanter (or Melo) already ruined our cap situation until KP gets paid and after KP gets paid we won't have the cap to add anyone.

Our cap will be fine come the 2021 offseason barring any non-signings before then. Hardaway's contract will come off the books and the roster will just be KP's max and rookie contracts (Frank isn't eligible for a contract extension until 2022 I believe). It'll give us ample time to add some bluechip talent from the next few drafts. Come summer of 2021, we should have a good young nucleus and we'll have salary space to add some veteran guys to put us over the top. The free Agent class of 2021 features Giannis, AD, Beal, Gobert and Oladipo will be unrestricted free agents and under the age of 28.

[E-Balla]

look, if your point is that timmy could be the 3rd option with duncan or lebron in his prime and win. you're right. that seems possible. but kp is not and will never be duncan or lebron in his prime. i can tell you that right now. i'm sure. and no, i'm not saying dump kp. he certainly can be a 2nd or 3rd option. a much better one than timmy.

If KP isn't a first option we should dump him because we will have to give him the max after next season and unless he's worth more than the max we won't be able to build anything championship level. That's just how the league works. The max contract has been around since 99 and outside of the 04 Pistons (who can't be built anymore since the league tilted the balance towards offense through rule changes) Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Timmy, Curry, Shaq, and KG have been the best/highest paid player on every championship team and all of them are top 20-30ish players ever peak for peak and MVPs. Only Wade who was on a rookie contract doesn't apply. You're not winning unless your max contract guy is outperforming the max and you can't fit more than 2 max guys on a team. Giving one max to KP means we'll have to draft the other because we won't have cap space at all thanks to Phil.

I'd rather pay KP the max to be our second best player, than pay Tim what he gets paid to be a number 3, and every team in the league would too. you don't trade your best player for the sake of cap management. the boat sailed on being savvy with the cap the moment phil signed Noah and Mills signed Tim.

on the bright side, barring extending kanter, Kyle, the knicks are in position to have a lot of capspace a year after extending KP, while Tim's PO is up.

You don't throw money at guys that can't lead you to the promise land either. If you give KP that money to be your 2nd best player but he's your best player and you have no chance at getting one better you're paying a #2 to be your #1 which is what we just went through with Melo.

And no we aren't going to have cap space. We'll have 10 mil if we give KP the max and Tim declines the PO. KP's max is going to be 5 years, 150-160 mil.

and a 2 time championship winning team is paying klay thompson the same money tim is getting paid.

is the goal to win 55 games and to max out as a 2nd round conference finals team, or is the goal to win a championship?

Klay got his contract under a lower cap. Not even comparable.When Klay got his extension it was 27% of the cap. The Warriors are benefitting from a perfectly timed cap jump that allowed them to extend their top 3 guys for what ended up being chump change. There's no new TV deal coming soon so their situation is irrelevant.

[Deeeez Knicks]

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

Yeah its not a good buisness model especially when you are a lottery team and looking to trade someone like Melo. It really made no sense.

if you are already a contender and/or have your core in place then sometimes it makes sense to pay a guy like that.

You guys don't understand that after next year we have to sign KP. To a max deal. If Timmy wasn't on the books we'd have only 17 million in the 2018 free agency and 10 million in the 2019 free agency (assuming we resign KP). Who are we getting for 17 this year or 10 million the year after better than Timmy? Please elaborate for me?

That's what y'all don't get. Noah/Lance/Lee/Kanter (or Melo) already ruined our cap situation until KP gets paid and after KP gets paid we won't have the cap to add anyone.

I understand our cap was not in good shape, but I see that as a reason not to sign Hardaway. If we can’t sign anyone without Hardaway’s salary on the books, we are not signing anyone with him. We made a bad situation worse and harder to sign a true max in free agency.

I would have just accepted that we were going to be a bad team and maybe focus on 2019 as a year we could make a move in free agency instead of trying to skip steps and play this middle ground.

The draft is probably the best place for us to find players at this point, which is another plus to just accepting we are not a good team.

[E-Balla]

Yeah its not a good buisness model especially when you are a lottery team and looking to trade someone like Melo. It really made no sense.

if you are already a contender and/or have your core in place then sometimes it makes sense to pay a guy like that.

You guys don't understand that after next year we have to sign KP. To a max deal. If Timmy wasn't on the books we'd have only 17 million in the 2018 free agency and 10 million in the 2019 free agency (assuming we resign KP). Who are we getting for 17 this year or 10 million the year after better than Timmy? Please elaborate for me?

That's what y'all don't get. Noah/Lance/Lee/Kanter (or Melo) already ruined our cap situation until KP gets paid and after KP gets paid we won't have the cap to add anyone.

Our cap will be fine come the 2021 offseason barring any non-signings before then. Hardaway's contract will come off the books and the roster will just be KP's max and rookie contracts (Frank isn't eligible for a contract extension until 2022 I believe). It'll give us ample time to add some bluechip talent from the next few drafts. Come summer of 2021, we should have a good young nucleus and we'll have salary space to add some veteran guys to put us over the top. The free Agent class of 2021 features Giannis, AD, Beal, Gobert and Oladipo will be unrestricted free agents and under the age of 28.

So your plan is to half ass tank for 8th overall picks until 2021 and pray we can lure a FA from an actually good franchise to go to a team with 8 straight 30 something or less win seasons? Totally...

[dakomish23]

If the Knicks had their nucleus in place then made the THJ signing, I’d be more for it.

[E-Balla]

Yeah its not a good buisness model especially when you are a lottery team and looking to trade someone like Melo. It really made no sense.

if you are already a contender and/or have your core in place then sometimes it makes sense to pay a guy like that.

You guys don't understand that after next year we have to sign KP. To a max deal. If Timmy wasn't on the books we'd have only 17 million in the 2018 free agency and 10 million in the 2019 free agency (assuming we resign KP). Who are we getting for 17 this year or 10 million the year after better than Timmy? Please elaborate for me?

That's what y'all don't get. Noah/Lance/Lee/Kanter (or Melo) already ruined our cap situation until KP gets paid and after KP gets paid we won't have the cap to add anyone.

I understand our cap was not in good shape, but I see that as a reason not to sign Hardaway. If we can’t sign anyone without Hardaway’s salary on the books, we are not signing anyone with him. We made a bad situation worse and harder to sign a true max in free agency.

I would have just accepted that we were going to be a bad team and maybe focus on 2019 as a year we could make a move in free agency instead of trying to skip steps and play this middle ground.

The draft is probably the best place for us to find players at this point, which is another plus to just accepting we are not a good team.

We couldn't sign a true max without him anyway so why not get a 25 year old that can be a good 3rd option? You're saying focus on 2019 but we'd have 10 million without Timmy on the books in 2019 (assuming KP gets the max - haven't even thought about him becoming supermax eligible) so what would we do? Sign someone worse than Timmy? Now how would that help us have a higher trajectory?

[Kampuchea]

I don't care how good anyone thinks Tim is or can be. If he’s your third best player, he better be on a rookie scale contract. What kinda backward as **** is paying your third best guy top guy money when you don’t have a #2 in place and you don’t even know if your #1 is a #1 or a #2?

4 years, $72 million ain't top guy money its peanuts compared to top guy money. Curry just gotra 5 year, $201 million deal. Millsap got 3 years, $90 million. Embiid got 5 years, $148 million. That's top guy money.

i know what a max is. I'm talking about him being one of the highest paid on your team.

Sorry, you’re not making any sense and I’m with E on this one.

He is not making “top guy money” and now you are making a new definition of what top guy money is? It’s based on the other salaries in your team not the overall market? So we need some better players making more than him so he’s not one of highest paid? That’s obvious we need some more star talent on the team.

It makes no sense however not to compare his contract to others on the market, not this 3rd or 8th compared to his standing on the team nonsense.

[ChaosHamster]

The draft is the only option at this point. Hopefully they gonna sit KP out as long as possible next year, even give him the Philly treatment and let him recover work on his body&game for a full year. (everyone is a fan of Philly's tank, but as I mentioned before, they didn't have your regular garbage tank (ala Suns, Magic..). They drafted their franchise guy, and HE SAT OUT THE YEAR, so they could get another one.. KP already ruined this years tank with his early season performance, so we ain't getting our Ben Simmons. But the hope is still alive for the next year).

Tim ain't that good. But he was a decent signing. You just can't sign GOOD and YOUNG player in free agency these days.

Either a guy is good and young(24-25) coming of his rookie deal, so hes RFA and team just maxes him out, so no one even has a chance.

Or they guy is solid (ala Tim), his own team is ready to offer him pretty much the money he is worth, but if you wanna get him - you have to overpay.

[E-Balla]

4 years, $72 million ain't top guy money its peanuts compared to top guy money. Curry just gotra 5 year, $201 million deal. Millsap got 3 years, $90 million. Embiid got 5 years, $148 million. That's top guy money.

i know what a max is. I'm talking about him being one of the highest paid on your team.

Sorry, you’re not making any sense and I’m with E on this one.

He is not making “top guy money” and now you are making a new definition of what top guy money is? It’s based on the other salaries in your team not the overall market? So we need some better players making more than him so he’s not one of highest paid? That’s obvious we need some more star talent on the team.

It makes no sense however not to compare his contract to others on the market, not this 3rd or 8th compared to his standing on the team nonsense.

PLUS HE'S THIRD ON THE DAMN TEAM ANYWAY SO IT'S IRRELEVANT!

[E-Balla]

The draft is the only option at this point. Hopefully they gonna sit KP out as long as possible next year, even give him the Philly treatment and let him recover work on his body&game for a full year. (everyone is a fan of Philly's tank, but as I mentioned before, they didn't have your regular garbage tank (ala Suns, Magic..). They drafted their franchise guy, and HE SAT OUT THE YEAR, so they could get another one.. KP already ruined this years tank with his early season performance, so we ain't getting our Ben Simmons. But the hope is still alive for the next year).

Tim ain't that good. But he was a decent signing. You just can't sign GOOD and YOUNG player in free agency these days.

Either a guy is good and young(24-25) coming of his rookie deal, so hes RFA and team just maxes him out, so no one even has a chance.

Or they guy is solid (ala Tim), his own team is ready to offer him pretty much the money he is worth, but if you wanna get him - you have to overpay.

There's a thread on the Draft Board right now about how bad the 2019 Draft is shaping up to be and everyone is already tanking. Philly's tank worked because they were one of 3 teams tanking most years. Look at this year there's a solid 9 teams openly tanking. When everyone tanks its a terrible strategy.

I think nailing this next pick, Frank becoming a good starter, and KP becoming a superstar is our only shot and even then moves like signing Ron Baker and not Justin or trading Willy might leave us with a bench that's terrible unless we become the Raptors and nail late draft picks to build up the bench. The rebuild died in its second year when Phil decided Rose and Noah was a good decision. Now we're just scrambling to recover.

[Marty McFly]

4 years, $72 million ain't top guy money its peanuts compared to top guy money. Curry just gotra 5 year, $201 million deal. Millsap got 3 years, $90 million. Embiid got 5 years, $148 million. That's top guy money.

i know what a max is. I'm talking about him being one of the highest paid on your team.

Sorry, you’re not making any sense and I’m with E on this one.

He is not making “top guy money” and now you are making a new definition of what top guy money is? It’s based on the other salaries in your team not the overall market? So we need some better players making more than him so he’s not one of highest paid? That’s obvious we need some more star talent on the team.

It makes no sense however not to compare his contract to others on the market, not this 3rd or 8th compared to his standing on the team nonsense.

I elaborated on what i meant by top guy. disagree if you want to. please explain to me how comparing his contract to other ones on the market is going to help a cap strapped team that has to contend with a salary cap. it's a completely myopic to look at it at that scenario.

[E-Balla]

i know what a max is. I'm talking about him being one of the highest paid on your team.

Sorry, you’re not making any sense and I’m with E on this one.

He is not making “top guy money” and now you are making a new definition of what top guy money is? It’s based on the other salaries in your team not the overall market? So we need some better players making more than him so he’s not one of highest paid? That’s obvious we need some more star talent on the team.

It makes no sense however not to compare his contract to others on the market, not this 3rd or 8th compared to his standing on the team nonsense.

I elaborated on what i meant by top guy. disagree if you want to. please explain to me how comparing his contract to other ones on the market is going to help a cap strapped team that has to contend with a salary cap. it's a completely myopic to look at it at that scenario.

So ok let's say the Knicks didn't sign him. Now what? We still have only 17 mil in cap space if Kanter opts in this offseason and 10 mil in cap space if KP gets his max in 2019. How does that put us in a better position long term?

EDIT: And your elaboration was still false because Tim is 3rd on the team with his contract.