The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[CoreyGallagher]

Why do people take ROTY and MVP that seriously? If they were serious about the awards, they would combine regular season and playoff results of the players.

They should do this for all the awards to be honest.

It would be pretty unfair for ROY since most of the highly touted rookies get drafted to trash teams.

That’s a good point too.

[cl2117]

Well this thread is aging very nicely. Who wouldve thought with one of the better and deeper rookie classes we have seen in awhile, the rookie thread turns into basically a pissing match for 2 players.

Im actually not all that surprised. It was probably always gonna breakdown into this especially when there's actual talented kids to talk about. Homers will always homer when given a reason to do so and the cape will be dawned whenever your player needs their good name rescued.

I think Mitchell is great and understand why his supporters are so vocal. All that I - and other Mitchell supporters are saying is that Ben Simmons has had a better season and should be the Rookie of the Year. The difference - in at least my eyes - is that I have put out a TON of statistical and advanced analytical support behind Simmons...his numbers are superior in the vast majority of categories. That is in addition to 1) team success (even more amplified with what Simmons has done with Embiid out); “big game”-type success (like the age game Friday night; and 3) ESPN-worthy highlight-reel plays.

My frustration is - in the spirit of a real debate on the merits of the two players - when you push Mitchell supporters to substantiate their position with facts - statistics and advanced analytics - what you usually get back is a bunch of subjective ish. THAT is the most frustrating thing...and why I get so amped about this.

If Mitchell has had a better season then Simmons, then make your analytical/statistical case for it. Is that too much to ask?

Last season, Brogdon won the ROY over Saric, and I had no problem with it, because the analytics supported Brogdon...remember? So why is it now different this year?

Inquiring minds want to know.

People make arguments in favor of Mitchell and substantiate it with facts and statistics and also subjective stuff (as do you as well, and as people should in a debate such as this) and YOU often distill it down to POINTZZZ like a child.

You don't have to agree with their analysis, you can say it's too heavily biased towards the subjective and not enough towards the advanced stats, but don't pretend that throughout this thread people haven't made legitimate arguments in favor of Mitchell. You just often refuse to acknowledge them and say POINTZ.

Simmons is my ROTY by the way. I just find you insufferable.

[_Joker]

I really liked Simmons earlier in the year but he proved himself an enormous douche with his recent arrogant comments and disrespect to Mitchell. People who know basketball know a second year guard who can’t shoot when they see one....

Lulz. Give it a rest

[bebopdeluxe]

Im actually not all that surprised. It was probably always gonna breakdown into this especially when there's actual talented kids to talk about. Homers will always homer when given a reason to do so and the cape will be dawned whenever your player needs their good name rescued.

I think Mitchell is great and understand why his supporters are so vocal. All that I - and other Mitchell supporters are saying is that Ben Simmons has had a better season and should be the Rookie of the Year. The difference - in at least my eyes - is that I have put out a TON of statistical and advanced analytical support behind Simmons...his numbers are superior in the vast majority of categories. That is in addition to 1) team success (even more amplified with what Simmons has done with Embiid out); “big game”-type success (like the age game Friday night; and 3) ESPN-worthy highlight-reel plays.

My frustration is - in the spirit of a real debate on the merits of the two players - when you push Mitchell supporters to substantiate their position with facts - statistics and advanced analytics - what you usually get back is a bunch of subjective ish. THAT is the most frustrating thing...and why I get so amped about this.

If Mitchell has had a better season then Simmons, then make your analytical/statistical case for it. Is that too much to ask?

Last season, Brogdon won the ROY over Saric, and I had no problem with it, because the analytics supported Brogdon...remember? So why is it now different this year?

Inquiring minds want to know.

People make arguments in favor of Mitchell and substantiate it with facts and statistics and also subjective stuff (as do you as well, and as people should in a debate such as this) and YOU often distill it down to POINTZZZ like a child.

You don't have to agree with their analysis, you can say it's too heavily biased towards the subjective and not enough towards the advanced stats, but don't pretend that throughout this thread people haven't made legitimate arguments in favor of Mitchell. You just often refuse to acknowledge them and say POINTZ.

Simmons is my ROTY by the way. I just find you insufferable.

Glad to hear you enjoy my post. Feel free to put me on ignore.

Usually my trademarked “POINTZ!!!” Is only employed after a thoughtful, fact based analysis of the two players is rendered in a discussion...which is usually met with “but Mitchell is AWESOME! The next D-WADE! Pure ASSASSIN in the 4th quarter” stuff...

Other examples:

“Mitchell is an AWESOME defender”

He may very well be, but most of the advanced metrics are in Simmons’ favor, and there are voters that have gone on record saying that they were going to vote for Ben on the All-Defensive Team (not to mention Zach Lowe mentioning last week that he may be giving one of his All-NBA votes to Simmons - you think Mitchell is getting any of those?). Again - Mitchell may be great...but statistically Ben is better.

“Mitchell is carrying the Jazz”

Then why is he 5th in VORP and 4th (at 5.0 vs 4.9 for Rubio) in WS on the Jazz? (guess who leads the Sixers in WS and VORP?)

And the last time Mitchell had to “carry the team” (when Gobert was out for 11 games earlier in the year), the Jazz were 2-and-9. Compare that with what Simmons is doing now in Embiid’s absence.

This is useless. I feel like I am trying to hammer a nail into jello. Every time I make the statistical case for Simmons - and cast light on some of the more popular subjective narratives supporting Mitchell, there is no substantive response...just a bunch of heavily-slanted subjective ish. We will see who wins the award.

[RSW7]

Simmons is a player who was drafted in the class of 2016 who won ROTY in 2018. Is everyone satisfied with this statement?

Yes, considering the cases of Blake Griffin, David Robinson, Larry Bird as precedents. Not to mention Foreign Pros who are not disqualified from such status as well. To that end, I’d also argue Julius Randle got robbed, IMO.

[leaguegod692]

i do not think griffin, robinson, bird etc should have been considered rookie, i do not think ben simmons should be considered a rookie

but he is, that is the rule so that is different debate to who is rookie of the year which to me, is pretty obviously simmons despite how awesome mitchell has been

[76thBearCub]

I honestly don't care if Mitchell wins the ROTY...in fact I think it might be better for him if he doesn't.

That's good. Simmons is hyper confident. A trait of true greatness.

[Patsfan1081]

I think Mitchell is having a great rookie season but I have still have yet to hear a good reason to put him over Simmons. Recent play has also kind of shown me that there are a handful of rookies that can put up big scoring numbers if they were a top option on their team. Jackson has put up twenty a game in Bookers absence, Tatum eighteen in Irving's. Simmon's and Tatum's clutch stats are also a lot better than Mitchell's, so I don't buy the idea that Mitchell is closing out a ton a games for them, Gobert's clutch stats are like 5X as good and should be getting much more credit.

[Patsfan1081]

Simmons is not insecure. He is speaking his truth - which is there is NO rookie who compares with him. I agree with him.

I actually like that fact that his focus isn't on Donovan Mitchell, but the elite players of the NBA. That is where his focus should be.

The fact you can't even acknowledge the idiocy of him responding to "what rookies have caught your attention" with "none" is so very telling.

The question wasn't "what rookies compare to you, or, should someone else be considered for roty besides you (him responding with "none" would still be idiotic to that question by the way given the discussion that is being had outside of Simmons himself and his fanboys) no, that wasn't the question, it was "what rookies have caught your attention."

None? Really? One of the best rookie classes ever, along with a guy doing things that not many rookies ever have and "none" is his response. Like complimenting someone in the rookie class, takes away from what he's doing or would break his heart and potentially impact the voting and him getting the award. I think Reek is blatantly insecure.

Yeah. Ben Simmons is insecure. Right.

So...when the season started and his fellow rookies did not vote Simmons as a front-runner for ROY, do you think he cared...or do you think he used it for fuel - huh?

He doesn't give a f what you think or what I think or what Donovan Mitchell thinks or what any other rookie thinks. Period.

I remember an interview with Kobe Bryant on the eve of the 2001 Finals...they asked him about what it was like to come home (he starred at Lower Merion High School - where my kids will go to school) to play in the Finals. He could have said something nice about Philly...what it would be like to play in the Finals here...and instead, he said something to the effect of, yeah, I am coming home to "cut the hearts out" of Sixers fans. Fans in Philly got all bent about that, but that was the Black Mamba speaking.

No mercy.

Ben Simmons doesn't care what Donovan Mitchell or any other rookie thinks of him. Mitchell played like STRAIGHT TRASH in the two games they played against each other (guess who won), and if anything, I would expect in their next game for Ben to guard DM personally and show him what an All-Defensive-Team-level toolbox looks like up close and personal. I still think about Embiid smacking Mitchell's ish here in Philly and then talking smack to him while he was on the ground. One of the highlights of the year for me. I respect what Donovan Mitchell has done, but if you want to get your panties in a twist because Simmons wouldn't "play nice" with Mitchell in that interview, feel free. I know Ben isn't losing any sleep over it.

Good luck in the playoffs. Hopefully both teams will get to the Finals and it can be settled there.

You seem to be getting a little worked up over this. What Simmons said was pretty classless, there's no way of getting around it.

[RB34]

I’m not sure if Simmons’ comment was meant as disrespect, I agree it can absolutely be taken that way but maybe he’s just setting his sights on where he wants to be instead of where he is.

Focussing on the end game instead of what’s around him.

[Unbreakable99]

So is anyone going to say Gobert is arrogant for this comment? I haven’t seen the backlash against Gobert.

https://clutchpoints.com/jazz-news-rudy-gobert-says-no-question-2017-18-nba-defensive-player-year/

[Larry Legend 33]

I'm no Sixers fan, but I understand their position. Mitchell has had a tremendous year, second best by a good margin. In a lot of other years Mitchell is ROY - he got super unlucky and that sucks. But this isn't a participation trophy, he doesn't get to share the award in recognition of his effort. There is a clear winner and I'd be defensive too if people were trying to take my guy's deserved recognition.

[bebopdeluxe]

I think Mitchell is having a great rookie season but I have still have yet to hear a good reason to put him over Simmons. Recent play has also kind of shown me that there are a handful of rookies that can put up big scoring numbers if they were a top option on their team. Jackson has put up twenty a game in Bookers absence, Tatum eighteen in Irving's. Simmon's and Tatum's clutch stats are also a lot better than Mitchell's, so I don't buy the idea that Mitchell is closing out a ton a games for them, Gobert's clutch stats are like 5X as good and should be getting much more credit.

Well done. Wish I was that concise.

[bebopdeluxe]

I'm no Sixers fan, but I understand their position. Mitchell has had a tremendous year, second best by a good margin. In a lot of other years Mitchell is ROY - he got super unlucky and that sucks. But this isn't a participation trophy, he doesn't get to share the award in recognition of his effort. There is a clear winner and I'd be defensive too if people were trying to take my guy's deserved recognition.

Celtics fans on point in this thread. Mitchell is awesome. It is no slight that a lot of people think Ben had a better season.

Mitchell could be the next Wade. I could see it. And Wade won titles (emphasis on plural).

But Ben could be the next Magic/LeBron. I’m good with that.

[bebopdeluxe]

So is anyone going to say Gobert is arrogant for this comment? I haven’t seen the backlash against Gobert.

https://clutchpoints.com/jazz-news-rudy-gobert-says-no-question-2017-18-nba-defensive-player-year/

I am totally comfortable with him saying that. We can have the Embiid argument, but Rudy’s case is strong.

“it ain’t bragging if it’s true”

[Scatocephalus]

Mitchell has publicly said that the award doesn't mean as much to him as getting in the playoffs and making some noise. Give it to Simmons. It may be the highlight of his career.

[babyjax13]

Still stuck in this cycle of who deserves what and who is better. Simmons has been historically good as a rookie, so has Mitchell, but not to the degree of Simmons. It's very similar to the LeBron-Melo year. Melo's rookie year was incredible, but you know whose was more impressive? LeBron, and a majority of people knew it. I love Mitchell, I think he's an incredible player. Simmons is more impactful and as amazing as Mitchell is I'd trade him for Simmons without thinking twice. Mitchell is the best player in this past year's draft, but not in this year's rookie class.

[Stonk]

Mitchell has publicly said that the award doesn't mean as much to him as getting in the playoffs and making some noise. Give it to Simmons. It may be the highlight of his career.

Yep, the guy just went toe to toe with lebron in the most important regular season game for both teams and won, as rookie.

ROY will be his highest achievement.

[Jables]

Mitchell has publicly said that the award doesn't mean as much to him as getting in the playoffs and making some noise. Give it to Simmons. It may be the highlight of his career.

Literally in the interview you're getting mad about Simmons says he cares more about All NBA and winning DPOY and championships in the future. How do you get salty about something you didn't even see or read? Lol you sound so smug as if you're the only one that sees that he sucks, he's pretty clearly going to be amazing.

[WMDman]

well this thread is toxic lol