Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXV

[NatP4]

The Wiz really need to trade Wall. It is debatable if we are actually better with him, he's not really improving and we will soon be paying him 40 million a year...

We are going to be paying a 32 year old Wall 47 million in the final year of that deal. Clippers were smart for moving Griffin

[Dat2U]

The Wiz really need to trade Wall. It is debatable if we are actually better with him...

Lies, no it's not, this your own personal bias. You cannot find one stat that suggests this.

[prime1time]

The Wiz really need to trade Wall. It is debatable if we are actually better with him...

Lies, no it's not, this your own personal bias. You cannot find one stat that suggests this.

Personal bias. Ha! I've followed John's entire career. I know his limitations. The no scenario where the Wiz will be able to field a genuinely competitive team paying Wall 40 million a year is none. Wall is a ball dominant player who has questionable decision making, a bad jump shot, average handles (case in point the end of the Cavs game. 9 times out of 10, if Wall doesn't beat a defender with his initial move, he doesn't beat them at all) and a deep desire to "be the man."

Might the Wizards be marginally better with Wall than without? Perhaps. But look forward into the future and you can clearly see how Wall's ball dominant nature directly hurts this team going forward. What are Otto, Oubre and Beal going to work on this off-season? There ball handling, playmaking and ability to score. If we had a pg who could play off ball and stretch the floor we would be able to challenge teams by having multiple people players who can initiate the offense, stretch the floor and play defense. That way we can attack a defenses weaknesses and make them pay when they help. With Wall on the floor, however, good defenses will make us pay as soon as the ball leaves his hands. I mean as it is now, Wall barely moves when the ball leaves his hands.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22182683/zach-lowe-2018-nba-all-star-starters-reserves

Wall is shooting 42 percent, his lowest mark since he was a rookie, and he just hasn't played with enough vigor on either end of the floor. One measure of that: He has spent 76.57 percent of floor time either standing still or walking, the largest such share among all rotation players, according to tracking data from Second Spectrum. Dirk Nowitzki is right behind Wall, and he's almost 40.

I really don't get why Wiz fans protect Wall so much. From day 1 everyone knew what Wall's limitations were and there was common consensus on what Wall needed to work on. And as we sit here, I can conclusively say that he has not adequately addressed them. Wall suckered us in with a good playoff performance last year, but that was never sustainable. I would gladly give up Wall for a slightly less talented non-ball dominant pg because then we could have a more free-flowing offense where everyone gets the chance to create and initiate the offense.

[prime1time]

The Wiz really need to trade Wall. It is debatable if we are actually better with him, he's not really improving and we will soon be paying him 40 million a year...

We are going to be paying a 32 year old Wall 47 million in the final year of that deal. Clippers were smart for moving Griffin

It's legit insanity. He's not worth any where close to that now, and it doesn't take genius to foresee a swift decline in Wall's game due to his deep reliance on his speed and athleticism. But like the argument I made above, Beal and Porter's games are clearly bottlenecked by Wall's inability to play off the ball. In an ideal world, Porter, Beal and Oubre would spend the next year or two working on there playmaking, ball handling and ability to initiate the offense because that would make our offense more dynamic.

I'm not saying that Wall's not a talented pg because he is. But I am saying that one of the most important abilities for a player to have is the ability to play off-the ball and still be effective. Because if they can't do that, now the entire offense transforms from a dynamic attack where "everyone eats" to a repetitive attack where one person initiates and makes all of the major decisions for the offense. This style can work, the Cavs somehow one a championship, but Wall is no LBJ. The Wiz really need to trade Wall. When you are thinking about signing a player to these kind of massive contracts, there shouldn't be any doubt regarding the long term benefit to the team.

[NatP4]

The Wiz really need to trade Wall. It is debatable if we are actually better with him, he's not really improving and we will soon be paying him 40 million a year...

We are going to be paying a 32 year old Wall 47 million in the final year of that deal. Clippers were smart for moving Griffin

It's legit insanity. He's not worth any where close to that now, and it doesn't take genius to foresee a swift decline in Wall's game due to his deep reliance on his speed and athleticism. But like the argument I made above, Beal and Porter's games are clearly bottlenecked by Wall's inability to play off the ball. In an ideal world, Porter, Beal and Oubre would spend the next year or two working on there playmaking, ball handling and ability to initiate the offense because that would make our offense more dynamic.

I'm not saying that Wall's not a talented pg because he is. But I am saying that one of the most important abilities for a player to have is the ability to play off-the ball and still be effective. Because if they can't do that, now the entire offense transforms from a dynamic attack where "everyone eats" to a repetitive attack where one person initiates and makes all of the major decisions for the offense. This style can work, the Cavs somehow one a championship, but Wall is no LBJ. The Wiz really need to trade Wall. When you are thinking about signing a player to these kind of massive contracts, there shouldn't be any doubt regarding the long term benefit to the team.

I agree with all of this. This changed recently when the league shifted to more small ball and switch everything defenses. Walls strength has always been to attack the paint in the pick and roll and find the open guy, how often do we see that happen in the halfcourt with him now? Almost never. The offense is ISO take turns, in the halfcourt, we run everything through Beal or Morris ISO’s.

A few years ago you could simply give Wall a stretch 4 and a screen setting big and he could carve teams up in a pick and roll with the floor spaced. Now teams just switch someone onto him, play him straight up, and he has no clue what to do or how to be effective. It honestly sucks because I loved our team in 2015 when we spread the floor and destroyed Toronto in round 1. Those days really are over, you need a scoring PG that can play off the ball. It’s going to hurt us in this years playoffs for certain, it’s compounded with our idiot coach that doesn’t run plays.

We saw this team with a combo guard that can knock down 3s at a 40% clip when Wall was out, the offense was smooth and the ball was moving for the most part(until Beal went ego crazy)

This is all somewhat irrelevant to the Wall thing though, he could still be an effective player if he gave any effort whatsoever on defense and made an effort to make the right play on offense instead of playing for stats or trying to make the highlight reel. Would that make him worth 47 million? Not a chance, but he could be an all star level PG still and be effective in the new NBA.

[dcstanley]

The Wizards are not better without Wall, not even close. But Wall and Beal are both overrated and fringe all-stars.

[Dark Faze]

Wall isn't a fringe all-star. He's a clear all-star, in the East anyway.

The Wall-less wizards ultimately ended up being pretty meh, and no that didn't just come down to Beal going crazy, because we were below .500 in March with him shooting 16 shots a night, which is very light for a first option.

[Dat2U]

The Wiz really need to trade Wall. It is debatable if we are actually better with him...

Lies, no it's not, this your own personal bias. You cannot find one stat that suggests this.

Personal bias. Ha! I've followed John's entire career. I know his limitations. The no scenario where the Wiz will be able to field a genuinely competitive team paying Wall 40 million a year is none. Wall is a ball dominant player who has questionable decision making, a bad jump shot, average handles (case in point the end of the Cavs game. 9 times out of 10, if Wall doesn't beat a defender with his initial move, he doesn't beat them at all) and a deep desire to "be the man."

Might the Wizards be marginally better with Wall than without? Perhaps. But look forward into the future and you can clearly see how Wall's ball dominant nature directly hurts this team going forward. What are Otto, Oubre and Beal going to work on this off-season? There ball handling, playmaking and ability to score. If we had a pg who could play off ball and stretch the floor we would be able to challenge teams by having multiple people players who can initiate the offense, stretch the floor and play defense. That way we can attack a defenses weaknesses and make them pay when they help. With Wall on the floor, however, good defenses will make us pay as soon as the ball leaves his hands. I mean as it is now, Wall barely moves when the ball leaves his hands.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22182683/zach-lowe-2018-nba-all-star-starters-reserves

Wall is shooting 42 percent, his lowest mark since he was a rookie, and he just hasn't played with enough vigor on either end of the floor. One measure of that: He has spent 76.57 percent of floor time either standing still or walking, the largest such share among all rotation players, according to tracking data from Second Spectrum. Dirk Nowitzki is right behind Wall, and he's almost 40.

I really don't get why Wiz fans protect Wall so much. From day 1 everyone knew what Wall's limitations were and there was common consensus on what Wall needed to work on. And as we sit here, I can conclusively say that he has not adequately addressed them. Wall suckered us in with a good playoff performance last year, but that was never sustainable. I would gladly give up Wall for a slightly less talented non-ball dominant pg because then we could have a more free-flowing offense where everyone gets the chance to create and initiate the offense.

Yes, your own personal bias and agenda.

The team has gone in the toilet in the last 20 games W/O Wall but you won't acknowledge that.

Wall of course was a shell of his self this year because of the knee but you won't acknowledge that.

But what you will acknowledge is that in 5 years, when he's 32, he'll be making a lot of money. I was fine with extending him but hey that's an Ernie & Ted move. If you wanna kill Wall for taking the money then go ahead but last time I checked Wall is getting $18 million this year and $19 million next year.

[Dat2U]

Wall isn't a fringe all-star. He's a clear all-star, in the East anyway.

The Wall-less wizards ultimately ended up being pretty meh, and no that didn't just come down to Beal going crazy, because we were below .500 in March with him shooting 16 shots a night, which is very light for a first option.

An injured Wall on one leg is a fringe all-star.

[NatP4]

There it is. Every single time Wall struggles, he’s playing injured of course, or he’s fatigued!

Everyone is pushing their own personal agenda! Wall is taking bad shots and giving no effort on defense because he only has one leg of course!

Nevermind that his TS% is the EXACT same as 2015-2016, he was hurt then also!

He was totally an all star level player this year that was 100% deserving, nevermind every other fan base rioting over his selection and NBA players tweeting about being snubbed in favor of him! It’s all personal bias!

Here’s my stat about the team’s record in March being below .500, nevermind that they went 15-12 overall without him while playing a significantly tougher schedule (without having Sato as a backup PG, because he was starting)

[NatP4]

Oh forgot that one, how dare you point out something 5 years down the road when he’s 32! He’ll ONLY be making 37 million in a couple of years at 29

[Dat2U]

There it is. Every single time Wall struggles, he’s playing injured of course, or he’s fatigued!

Everyone is pushing their own personal agenda! Wall is taking bad shots and giving no effort on defense because he only has one leg of course!

Nevermind that his TS% is the EXACT same as 2015-2016, he was hurt then also!

He was totally an all star level player this year that was 100% deserving, nevermind every other fan base rioting over his selection and NBA players tweeting about being snubbed in favor of him! It’s all personal bias!

Here’s my stat about the team’s record in March being below .500, nevermind that they went 15-12 overall without him while playing a significantly tougher schedule (without having Sato as a backup PG, because he was starting)

LOL, Mr. Agenda himself. You darn near wrote the same 4 things everyday for more than a yr. Brooks sucks. Wall sucks. Play Sato more, play Oubre more. You've gotten your wish most of the 2nd half of the season. No Wall. All Sato. Lots of Oubre and a TON OF LOSSES!

Hey, but as long as Wall is gone, my guess is you and a few others here will be thrilled to see the Wizards rack up lottery balls.

[NatP4]

They went 15-12 without Wall. That’s a 45 win playoff team in the east pace. (Without having a backup point guard) in the toughest stretch of the schedule.


What you are saying does not make any sense whatsoever

[Dat2U]

They went 15-12 without Wall. That’s a 45 win playoff team in the east pace. (Without having a backup point guard) in the toughest stretch of the schedule.


What you are saying does not make any sense whatsoever

So do you have any comment on going 5-11 in their last 16 w/o Wall? Probaby not, huh?

And I guess Wall was faking his injury this year because he's always sucked according to you...

You've never made much sense but that doesn't stop you from acting like your the smartest guy in the room and repeating yourself like a broken record nearly every day! You and SD20 have a lot in common in the way.

[NatP4]

They went 15-12 without Wall. That’s a 45 win playoff team in the east pace. (Without having a backup point guard) in the toughest stretch of the schedule.


What you are saying does not make any sense whatsoever

So do you have any comment on going 5-11 in their last 16 w/o Wall? Probaby not, huh?

And I guess Wall was faking his injury this year because he's always sucked according to you...

You've never made much sense but that doesn't stop you from acting like your the smartest guy in the room and repeating yourself like a broken record nearly every day! You and SD20 have a lot in common in the way.

the entire world speculating that the wizards are tanking to avoid Cleveland, did you miss all of that? Are they not STILL 15-12 overall in that stretch without him? wait, thats a 45 win pace, not a lottery team like you say.

and theres another personal attack from Dat2U, nothing to see here.

[DCZards]

They went 15-12 without Wall. That’s a 45 win playoff team in the east pace. (Without having a backup point guard) in the toughest stretch of the schedule.


What you are saying does not make any sense whatsoever

TBH, that "tough schedule" turned out to be not all that tough because 3-4 of the best teams were without their top player(s).

The Zards have been lousy the last month or so without Wall. Last season, with a healthy Wall (and a terrible bench) they won 49 games and advanced to within one game of the ECF.

Connect the dots.

[NatP4]

They went 15-12 without Wall. That’s a 45 win playoff team in the east pace. (Without having a backup point guard) in the toughest stretch of the schedule.


What you are saying does not make any sense whatsoever

TBH, that "tough schedule" turned out to be not all that tough because 3-4 of the best teams were without their top player(s).

The Zards have been lousy the last month or so without Wall. Last season, with a healthy Wall (and a terrible bench) they won 49 games and advanced to within one game of the ECF.

Connect the dots.

so what you're saying is, with a "healthy" Wall, instead of no backup PG at all, in the best season of his career, 49 wins, the team with no Wall and no backup PG playing the toughest stretch of their schedule, and clearly tanked to avoid Cleveland, was on a 45 win pace.

what dots am I supposed to be connecting here? by the way, they still have a terrible bench this year and it was even worse without Wall.

[Dat2U]

They went 15-12 without Wall. That’s a 45 win playoff team in the east pace. (Without having a backup point guard) in the toughest stretch of the schedule.


What you are saying does not make any sense whatsoever

TBH, that "tough schedule" turned out to be not all that tough because 3-4 of the best teams were without their top player(s).

The Zards have been lousy the last month or so without Wall. Last season, with a healthy Wall (and a terrible bench) they won 49 games and advanced to within one game of the ECF.

Connect the dots.

so what you're saying is, with a "healthy" Wall, instead of no backup PG at all, in the best season of his career, 49 wins, the team with no Wall and no backup PG playing the toughest stretch of their schedule, and clearly tanked to avoid Cleveland, was on a 45 win pace.

what dots am I supposed to be connecting here? by the way, they still have a terrible bench this year and it was even worse without Wall.

I understand. Don't hurt yourself. Connecting the dots must be painful & arduous for you.

By the way, when you said the Wizards were obviously tanking to avoid Cleveland, did they start tanking at the beginning of March???

[Dark Faze]

They went 15-12 without Wall. That’s a 45 win playoff team in the east pace. (Without having a backup point guard) in the toughest stretch of the schedule.


What you are saying does not make any sense whatsoever

TBH, that "tough schedule" turned out to be not all that tough because 3-4 of the best teams were without their top player(s).

The Zards have been lousy the last month or so without Wall. Last season, with a healthy Wall (and a terrible bench) they won 49 games and advanced to within one game of the ECF.

Connect the dots.

so what you're saying is, with a "healthy" Wall, instead of no backup PG at all, in the best season of his career, 49 wins, the team with no Wall and no backup PG playing the toughest stretch of their schedule, and clearly tanked to avoid Cleveland, was on a 45 win pace.

what dots am I supposed to be connecting here? by the way, they still have a terrible bench this year and it was even worse without Wall.

With no backup PG worth a damn, above league average Beal that actually plays more than 60 games for the first time ever, Kelly Oubre who was barely a rotation player (though his month long rut has been so bad his '18 stats are quickly diving close to that), Mahinmi only playing 31 games...and yea, 49 wins. So basically if that version of Wall actually aligns to a roster halfway worth anything, he should have been the best player on a 50+ win team pretty easily.

With that said, I think both sides are guilty of gassing up their argument to an extent. Wall is perhaps not as critical to this teams future as one would think, and by the same token--no, Satoransky and Otto Porter are not good enough players to lead this team to anything meaningful either.

What we all need is a competent team put together that we're not all screaming about prior to the season starting, that actually stays healthy, and isn't subject to the worst rotations ever. As bad as this season has been, I think there's something we can build on, so long as tax ramifications don't force us into the dirt prematurely.

Getting a new GM would really really help. I think Oubre's stock is going to be in the trashbin by this time next year if he doesn't turn his numbers up in a big way. As brilliant as his flashes are at times, you have to have a number you're not willing to go beyond for him if he doesn't show more, and right now that number is really close to the MLE.

[prime1time]

The question as to whether or not the Wizards are better than Wall is irrelevant. The Wizards are clearly NOT good enough with Wall to justify keeping him on off the trade block.