Gortat has been the problem

[I_Like_Dirt]

The pick we traded to get Gortat. If we hadn’t traded that pick. If we had kept it. What happens? That’s the point you seem to be missing.

C'mon now. You and I both know that if the pick wasn't traded for Gortat, that EG would have found someone else to trade it for. Blaming Gortat for what the team gave up for him, and really, that pick wasn't even that much of a price to pay for as much as Gortat has helped the organization. EG gave up a pick to dump Nicholson, too, and that didn't help the team win any games at all.

Gortat is far from a superstar and his age and the NBA are both moving in a direction that makes him less effective than he used to be, but he's also not anywhere close to the problem. And the Wizards absolutely could have had Jokic despite Gortat if they really wanted him.

[barelyawake]

And several of the responses here are exactly why this thread needed to be created. Because many of you have told yourself over and over that whatever happens, Wall is the problem. When in truth, Gortat was the one who started this fight (and is still continuing it, despite Wall attempting to molify the guy who shouldn’t have any complaints considering his stats are based on Wall passes).

And Nate, as I’ve said many, many times, I could care less about Gortat’s regular season stats because he loses the refs’ whistle in the playoffs — thus it is then that he becomes the biggest problem.

[nate33]

And Nate, as I’ve said many, many times, I could care less about Gortat’s regular season stats because he loses the refs’ whistle in the playoffs — thus it is then that he becomes the biggest problem.

Gortat's regular season numbers over the past 5 years:
19.4 pts/100
15.4 reb/100
114 ORtg
104 DRtg
.143 WS/48
17.0 PER

Gortat's playoff numbers over the past 5 years:
17.5 pts/100
16.0 reb/100
113 ORtg
104 DRtg
.142 WS/48
16.3 PER

I'm not seeing any dramatic dropoff in the playoffs. He scores slightly less, which is to be expected when the defense is better. Everything else is the same.

I maintain that the Gortat acquisition was rational at the time. Obviously, as fans, we prefer for a more "swing for the fences" approach because we want a championship, but an owner is also worried about year-over-year competence in order to put fans in seats. There were undoubtedly better options that one can see in hindsight, but there was a lot of potential for worse choices to have been made as well. On balance, I don't consider this one of EG's primary failures. It absolutely pales in comparison to the horrific Summer 2016 free agency period, or the failure of the Vesely draft, or the #5 pick for Mike Miller trade.

[I_Like_Dirt]

And several of the responses here are exactly why this thread needed to be created. Because many of you have told yourself over and over that whatever happens, Wall is the problem.

Care to point me to these "several" responses you speak of? I only see on post blaming wall for anything in this thread, and even that is more about poor team cohesion - and that particular post cited a bunch of different examples with players other than Gortat where Wall was involved.

In reality, everyone knows both Wall and Gortat are good players who help the team. Wall is also clearly a much better player than Gortat. None of that is really in doubt. Wall's contract and his penchant for struggling to get along with teammates and needing to be the center of attention are also very real concerns. There the same kind of concerns Russell Westbrook has, for what it's worth, and Westbrook is actually one of the few players legitimately better than Wall out there.

[krii]

I'd love to see the same topic 5 or 10 years from now to see how many outstanding Wizards centers - that played during this period and were significantly better than Gortat overall - you will be able to list here.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say Gortat is the best center Wizards ever had (that would be stupid), but overall - how many good centers Wizards had since 1990s?

It's funny to see how Gortat became problem, whilst Mahinmi is just another player on the team; not a problem at all (with higher salary and literally zero-to-meh production).

[DCZards]

Why is this Wall-Gortat feud even being brought up again? I thought it was history. It certainly isn't close to being the chief reason for any team chemistry issues or for the fact that the Zards have been struggling the past month or so.

Yes, Marcin's play has fallen off (mostly due to age and style of play) but he's been a damn good player for most of his time with the Zards...and it's wrong to turn him into the scapegoat, which this thread seems to be doing.

[Wiz99]

. There the same kind of concerns Russell Westbrook has, for what it's worth, and Westbrook is actually one of the few players legitimately better than Wall out there.

Wall is somewhere on a spectrum of “hard to get along with” between Westbrook (best case) and Stephon Marbury (worst case).

And for anyone who’d balk at the Marbury comp, their achievements/stats are shockingly similar (Marbury 19&8, 2 All NBA teams. Wall 19&9, 1 All NBA team)

[nate33]

. There the same kind of concerns Russell Westbrook has, for what it's worth, and Westbrook is actually one of the few players legitimately better than Wall out there.

Wall is somewhere on a spectrum of “hard to get along with” between Westbrook (best case) and Stephon Marbury (worst case).

And for anyone who’d balk at the Marbury comp, their achievements/stats are shockingly similar (Marbury 19&8, 2 All NBA teams. Wall 19&9, 1 All NBA team)

I disagree with this. Wall may have flaws as a basketball player, but the general sense I get from around the league is that most people like him and would be happy to play alongside him. He's definitely more highly regarded among real live NBA players and coaches than he is by advanced stats.

[truwizfan4evr]

. There the same kind of concerns Russell Westbrook has, for what it's worth, and Westbrook is actually one of the few players legitimately better than Wall out there.

Wall is somewhere on a spectrum of “hard to get along with” between Westbrook (best case) and Stephon Marbury (worst case).

And for anyone who’d balk at the Marbury comp, their achievements/stats are shockingly similar (Marbury 19&8, 2 All NBA teams. Wall 19&9, 1 All NBA team)

I disagree with this. Wall may have flaws as a basketball player, but the general sense I get from around the league is that most people like him and would be happy to play alongside him. He's definitely more highly regarded among real live NBA players and coaches than he is by advanced stats.

i agree

[barelyawake]

And Nate, as I’ve said many, many times, I could care less about Gortat’s regular season stats because he loses the refs’ whistle in the playoffs — thus it is then that he becomes the biggest problem.

Gortat's regular season numbers over the past 5 years:
19.4 pts/100
15.4 reb/100
114 ORtg
104 DRtg
.143 WS/48
17.0 PER

Gortat's playoff numbers over the past 5 years:
17.5 pts/100
16.0 reb/100
113 ORtg
104 DRtg
.142 WS/48
16.3 PER

I'm not seeing any dramatic dropoff in the playoffs. He scores slightly less, which is to be expected when the defense is better. Everything else is the same.

I maintain that the Gortat acquisition was rational at the time. Obviously, as fans, we prefer for a more "swing for the fences" approach because we want a championship, but an owner is also worried about year-over-year competence in order to put fans in seats. There were undoubtedly better options that one can see in hindsight, but there was a lot of potential for worse choices to have been made as well. On balance, I don't consider this one of EG's primary failures. It absolutely pales in comparison to the horrific Summer 2016 free agency period, or the failure of the Vesely draft, or the #5 pick for Mike Miller trade.

Again this is where stats lie in the nba. The nba playoffs comes down to crucial calls and crucial baskets. LeBron wins because nba officials make “star calls” during these crucial moments. Who cares what happens in the first quarter of nba playoff games? Now show me the stats for critical baskets during playoffs games (fourth quarter or game altering possessions). This is the greatest lie the nba has going. Because it can justify “star calls” via statistics.

If you don’t see how Gortat doesn’t get the calls when the game is on the line, then again, you are deluding yourself with statistics. It’s like pretending that moneyball will win championships when stars win championships. It helps you justify your stat keeping as a more important factor than star calls — which is nonsense in the real world.

[barelyawake]

Why is this Wall-Gortat feud even being brought up again? I thought it was history. It certainly isn't close to being the chief reason for any team chemistry issues or for the fact that the Zards have been struggling the past month or so.

Yes, Marcin's play has fallen off (mostly due to age and style of play) but he's been a damn good player for most of his time with the Zards...and it's wrong to turn him into the scapegoat, which this thread seems to be doing.

The Wall/Gortat feud is being brought up again because if we had Wall and Gortat in sync like previous years, we’d roll through these playoffs. Why don’t we have them in sync? Ask the guy who has been complaining all year (and currently) and talking about retiring or leaving. It amazes me this board gives no slack to our best player (who wants to be mr. dc) all the slack to a guy who says he doesn’t want to be here.

[barelyawake]

I'd love to see the same topic 5 or 10 years from now to see how many outstanding Wizards centers - that played during this period and were significantly better than Gortat overall - you will be able to list here.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say Gortat is the best center Wizards ever had (that would be stupid), but overall - how many good centers Wizards had since 1990s?

It's funny to see how Gortat became problem, whilst Mahinmi is just another player on the team; not a problem at all (with higher salary and literally zero-to-meh production).

If in ten years from now, we haven’t had a center better than Gortat — one of the worst starting bigs in the nba (and in no way a player a team ought to gloat about). Then, I’m shooting myself. How can one possibly feel pride over a front court based on Gortat? That’s the height of accepting being a loser.

[DCZards]

The Wall/Gortat feud is being brought up again because if we had Wall and Gortat in sync like previous years, we’d roll through these playoffs.Why don’t we have them in sync? Ask the guy who has been complaining all year (and currently) and talking about retiring or leaving. It amazes me this board gives no slack to our best player (who wants to be mr. dc) all the slack to a guy who says he doesn’t want to be here.

Seriously. You think the only thing standing between the Zards and the ECF and/or the NBA championship is the so-called feud between Wall and Gortat?

And I only see a couple of people on this board who aren't giving Wall any slack. Most here seem to be solidly behind WallStar most of the time.