Doc Rivers to the Knicks?

[og15]

The team chemistry seemed to be fine with Chris gone.

Also seemed to be fine with Chris there, seemed being the keyword. Lower, well, basically no expectations can do a lot for team chemistry also.

[esqtvd]

The team chemistry seemed to be fine with Chris gone.

Also seemed to be fine with Chris there, seemed being the keyword. Lower, well, basically no expectations can do a lot for team chemistry also.

Well, that's why I'm agnostic about dumping Doc because I don't know all the behind the scenes dynamics. We all know that Chris is kind of a prick, had no real friends on the team that he hung out with, got Vinny fired. Blake was a lot more open and relaxed with him gone. Nobody on the team or in the org seemed particularly sad CP left.

And it certainly DOES seem the team was unhappy and the chemistry was bad. To me that's the real revelation creeping out.

I think Chris leaving because Doc didn't ride Austin hard enough is weak, in fact I don't buy that was the reason or even a reason. And I think it's petty if that's what he said to Ballmer.

Since the rebuild can't get started in earnest until we're out from under DJ's contract [and Austin's if you will], I don't see any advantage in bringing in a new coach [and system] until 2019-20. We don't have a Chris Paul to keep happy by firing the coach.

[og15]

The team chemistry seemed to be fine with Chris gone.

Also seemed to be fine with Chris there, seemed being the keyword. Lower, well, basically no expectations can do a lot for team chemistry also.

Well, that's why I'm agnostic about dumping Doc because I don't know all the behind the scenes dynamics. We all know that Chris is kind of a prick, had no real friends on the team that he hung out with, got Vinny fired. Blake was a lot more open and relaxed with him gone. Nobody on the team or in the org seemed particularly sad CP left.

And it certainly DOES seem the team was unhappy and the chemistry was bad. To me that's the real revelation creeping out.

I think Chris leaving because Doc didn't ride Austin hard enough is weak, in fact I don't buy that was the reason or even a reason. And I think it's petty if that's what he said to Ballmer.

Since the rebuild can't get started in earnest until we're out from under DJ's contract [and Austin's if you will], I don't see any advantage in bringing in a new coach [and system] until 2019-20. We don't have a Chris Paul to keep happy by firing the coach.

Everyone got VDN fired, and the players supposedly also didn't believe he was a championship coach. Paul was the main concern because he was the FA the team wanted to keep, but Blake didn't seem to like the guy (remember him shoulder bumping him, and his comments about actually having direction for training in the off-season) and DJ hated the guy, though at that time DJ wasn't a big concern.

The general report about Paul is that he was a hard teammate on the court, but outside of that he was quite good to people in the organization. Also we know that him and Redick were good friends and that Redick and some others even liked his ways. So with that, I don't know if this is true. Doc was upset and also salty when it happened, and Ballmer was not happy about it, either. Also I think in terms of teammates that's probably because the team that was there while he was there was mainly gone. Him and Redick were friends. Luc joined him in Houston, and him and Jamal are known to be friends.

Was the issue about riding Austin harder? I thought the rumors about the Clippers not wanting to trade Austin for Carmelo was a factor. That likely sowed the seed of the idea that Doc wouldn't make the best decisions for the team if Austin was involved. Also the talk about CP wanting Austin to start and Doc disagreeing, it's possible that the feeling was that Doc wanted Austin with the bench unit to maximize his role, again, whether true or not, perception is reality.

I do agree that I don't see an imminence in firing Doc, but if they do, I'm not going to shed tears like it kills the team or something. Either way it will be fine.

[esqtvd]

Also seemed to be fine with Chris there, seemed being the keyword. Lower, well, basically no expectations can do a lot for team chemistry also.

Well, that's why I'm agnostic about dumping Doc because I don't know all the behind the scenes dynamics. We all know that Chris is kind of a prick, had no real friends on the team that he hung out with, got Vinny fired. Blake was a lot more open and relaxed with him gone. Nobody on the team or in the org seemed particularly sad CP left.

And it certainly DOES seem the team was unhappy and the chemistry was bad. To me that's the real revelation creeping out.

I think Chris leaving because Doc didn't ride Austin hard enough is weak, in fact I don't buy that was the reason or even a reason. And I think it's petty if that's what he said to Ballmer.

Since the rebuild can't get started in earnest until we're out from under DJ's contract [and Austin's if you will], I don't see any advantage in bringing in a new coach [and system] until 2019-20. We don't have a Chris Paul to keep happy by firing the coach.

Everyone got VDN fired, and the players supposedly also didn't believe he was a championship coach. Paul was the main concern because he was the FA the team wanted to keep, but Blake didn't seem to like the guy (remember him shoulder bumping him, and his comments about actually having direction for training in the off-season) and DJ hated the guy, though at that time DJ wasn't a big concern.

The general report about Paul is that he was a hard teammate on the court, but outside of that he was quite good to people in the organization. Also we know that him and Redick were good friends and that Redick and some others even liked his ways. So with that, I don't know if this is true. Doc was upset and also salty when it happened, and Ballmer was not happy about it, either. Also I think in terms of teammates that's probably because the team that was there while he was there was mainly gone. Him and Redick were friends. Luc joined him in Houston, and him and Jamal are known to be friends.

Was the issue about riding Austin harder? I thought the rumors about the Clippers not wanting to trade Austin for Carmelo was a factor. That likely sowed the seed of the idea that Doc wouldn't make the best decisions for the team if Austin was involved. Also the talk about CP wanting Austin to start and Doc disagreeing, it's possible that the feeling was that Doc wanted Austin with the bench unit to maximize his role, again, whether true or not, perception is reality.

I do agree that I don't see an imminence in firing Doc, but if they do, I'm not going to shed tears like it kills the team or something. Either way it will be fine.

Well, I'm the same. But you take Chris out of the above equation [like how happy the team seemed this fall] and it tells a different story than the prevailing narrative. I question the prevailing narrative that the Chris Paul Era failed because of Doc. It may well have failed because of Chris Paul.

And I remain a Chris Paul fan. Kobe was a prick too, but on the court he could take over a game and will his team to victory. Chris could not, at least in the long run. He needed a team he could lead. Scratch that--he needed to lead a team!

But he didn't. As our Hall of Famer, Chris was the putative leader of the Clippers, but he never stepped up and made it his team. Instead, we see him whining that Doc didn't criticize Austin for things he criticized others for. Well screw you, Chris. Everybody knows that on every championship team, veteran team leaders whip the kids into shape, and into line. So that's bullspit, Chris, and why you were never a leader. You should have formed a unit with Blake and a few others and taken care of bidness yourselves.

Maybe it wasn't Chris's fault but there was a chemistry problem. You heard over the past few years they just didn't enjoy playing together. Chris is a basketball deep throat; Blake and DJ are party animals who do NOT eat, sleep and breathe basketball. Jamal and JJ are gunners who aren't much help with other facets of the game. Luc was a very limited role player. Not a bulldog among them. [Except the late great Tatty MattyB but he's kind of nuts, LOL]

Maybe it was a miracle that machine ran at all. Look at OKC. All that talent and they didn't even win 50 games. Maybe Doc wasn't so bad. As for the fans' feelings about Doc, I'm not swayed by a few vociferous voices on chat boards. This seems to have a cross-section of supporters, a smaller number of haters, and a lot of folks like you and I who seem to be good whether he stays or goes.

https://www.clipsnation.com/2018/4/12/17230508/doc-rivers-expected-to-return-to-clippers-next-season-per-report

[Sort of how many of us felt when Chris left, come to think of it. Was anybody besides Wammy heartbroken?]


The Chris Paul Era was such a unique constellation of the forced marriage of two uncomplementary superstars, salary cap problems, injuries, no drafting position, Sterling cheapness in personnel throughout the org, and prickly personalities to boot that I don't know who's responsible for what, and what could have been done to change it. What I do know is that there is a narrative out there that bears further scrutiny. The more I hear--especially from and about Chris--the more I question the narrative.

Was there ever a superstar, a Hall of Famer still not past his prime, who left with so few tears from fans and teammates alike?

[Ranma]

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[og15]

Well, that's why I'm agnostic about dumping Doc because I don't know all the behind the scenes dynamics. We all know that Chris is kind of a prick, had no real friends on the team that he hung out with, got Vinny fired. Blake was a lot more open and relaxed with him gone. Nobody on the team or in the org seemed particularly sad CP left.

And it certainly DOES seem the team was unhappy and the chemistry was bad. To me that's the real revelation creeping out.

I think Chris leaving because Doc didn't ride Austin hard enough is weak, in fact I don't buy that was the reason or even a reason. And I think it's petty if that's what he said to Ballmer.

Since the rebuild can't get started in earnest until we're out from under DJ's contract [and Austin's if you will], I don't see any advantage in bringing in a new coach [and system] until 2019-20. We don't have a Chris Paul to keep happy by firing the coach.

Everyone got VDN fired, and the players supposedly also didn't believe he was a championship coach. Paul was the main concern because he was the FA the team wanted to keep, but Blake didn't seem to like the guy (remember him shoulder bumping him, and his comments about actually having direction for training in the off-season) and DJ hated the guy, though at that time DJ wasn't a big concern.

The general report about Paul is that he was a hard teammate on the court, but outside of that he was quite good to people in the organization. Also we know that him and Redick were good friends and that Redick and some others even liked his ways. So with that, I don't know if this is true. Doc was upset and also salty when it happened, and Ballmer was not happy about it, either. Also I think in terms of teammates that's probably because the team that was there while he was there was mainly gone. Him and Redick were friends. Luc joined him in Houston, and him and Jamal are known to be friends.

Was the issue about riding Austin harder? I thought the rumors about the Clippers not wanting to trade Austin for Carmelo was a factor. That likely sowed the seed of the idea that Doc wouldn't make the best decisions for the team if Austin was involved. Also the talk about CP wanting Austin to start and Doc disagreeing, it's possible that the feeling was that Doc wanted Austin with the bench unit to maximize his role, again, whether true or not, perception is reality.

I do agree that I don't see an imminence in firing Doc, but if they do, I'm not going to shed tears like it kills the team or something. Either way it will be fine.

Well, I'm the same. But you take Chris out of the above equation [like how happy the team seemed this fall] and it tells a different story than the prevailing narrative. I question the prevailing narrative that the Chris Paul Era failed because of Doc. It may well have failed because of Chris Paul.

And I remain a Chris Paul fan. Kobe was a prick too, but on the court he could take over a game and will his team to victory. Chris could not, at least in the long run. He needed a team he could lead. Scratch that--he needed to lead a team!

But he didn't. As our Hall of Famer, Chris was the putative leader of the Clippers, but he never stepped up and made it his team. Instead, we see him whining that Doc didn't criticize Austin for things he criticized others for. Well screw you, Chris. Everybody knows that on every championship team, veteran team leaders whip the kids into shape, and into line. So that's bullspit, Chris, and why you were never a leader. You should have formed a unit with Blake and a few others and taken care of bidness yourselves.

Maybe it wasn't Chris's fault but there was a chemistry problem. You heard over the past few years they just didn't enjoy playing together. Chris is a basketball deep throat; Blake and DJ are party animals who do NOT eat, sleep and breathe basketball. Jamal and JJ are gunners who aren't much help with other facets of the game. Luc was a very limited role player. Not a bulldog among them. [Except the late great Tatty MattyB but he's kind of nuts, LOL]

Maybe it was a miracle that machine ran at all. Look at OKC. All that talent and they didn't even win 50 games. Maybe Doc wasn't so bad. As for the fans' feelings about Doc, I'm not swayed by a few vociferous voices on chat boards. This seems to have a cross-section of supporters, a smaller number of haters, and a lot of folks like you and I who seem to be good whether he stays or goes.

https://www.clipsnation.com/2018/4/12/17230508/doc-rivers-expected-to-return-to-clippers-next-season-per-report

[Sort of how many of us felt when Chris left, come to think of it. Was anybody besides Wammy heartbroken?]


The Chris Paul Era was such a unique constellation of the forced marriage of two uncomplementary superstars, salary cap problems, injuries, no drafting position, Sterling cheapness in personnel throughout the org, and prickly personalities to boot that I don't know who's responsible for what, and what could have been done to change it. What I do know is that there is a narrative out there that bears further scrutiny. The more I hear--especially from and about Chris--the more I question the narrative.

Was there ever a superstar, a Hall of Famer still not past his prime, who left with so few tears from fans and teammates alike?

Trying to fault a single person for something like that is a problem in itself. Doesn't work that way. There's been an article about every big name from the team. Paul was mean, Blake was difficult to talk to and didn't know how to deal with conflict, Doc would say whatever he needed to say to make himself look good and to pacify people, etc, etc

They team was fine when they started, but as many articles and many of them have said, the losing and lack of playoff success wears on guys and builds distrust.

Doc was at fault too, there's no reason to try and absolve him as some passive participant who just got the short end of the stick in everything. Oh my players personalities didn't mesh, oh the cap is hard, oh other coaches are really good, oh they dust want to listen to me, I had genius strategies they just didn't pull it off, oh the draft is a crapshoot, oh our free agents just didn't pan out, oh this oh that. When you have to make excuses about everything, that's not a good look, especially when Ballmer on the other hand had straight up said we made some bad and shortsighted decisions and isn't going around trying to excuse himself. The difference of course is that Doc has a legacy/reputation he wants to keep up /protect while Ballmer is an owner, doesn't matter to him.

I think you hit on part of the issue, if riding Austin was an issue, and I have no clue if it was or where that was reported, how hard can you ride him with his dad as coach and GM? How do we know the other players weren't riding him, but felt no support from the coach? If Doc is out in post-game saying Austin's defense was excellent (which was a common comment of his), are you going to go and now tell Austin he made all these mistakes on defense? The coach is still the head figure, and if Austin wasn't being made accountable as much as others by the coach, players can't substitute for that, it's not realistic. Doc was learning about the whole dynamic too though.

Winning a championship, even winning in the playoffs in the WC is not easy, sometimes we forget that. You can be good and do things really well (not perfect) and still not win, it's life.

Chemistry this season can't be compared to previous seasons. These were basically all new players. The other team had baggage that caused their chemistry issues. Blake and Paul used to to BGCP3TV when they started together, everything is happy when it is fresh. Look at how great the Rockets chemistry is. If they lose early or don't have finals or championship in 3 years, I would like to revisit that chemistry. If this teams chemistry was not good this year with a ton of young and new guys, that would have been quite the problem.

[esqtvd]

Doc was at fault too, there's no reason to try and absolve him as some passive participant who just got the short end of the stick in everything. Oh my players personalities didn't mesh, oh the cap is hard, oh other coaches are really good, oh they dust want to listen to me, I had genius strategies they just didn't pull it off, oh the draft is a crapshoot, oh our free agents just didn't pan out, oh this oh that.

Reasons, not "excuses." The question is whether any other mortal man [Jerry West is the Chuck Norris of personnel decisions, not a mortal man] could have done anything different and better, and if so, what? Kevin Garnett said that Doc wasn't tough enough on the Clippers and I'm sure that CP agreed with that. But how do you ride DJ and Blake, who are happy-go-lucky types who do their best work when ridden gently? In fact there's a story that Austin called out both Blake [for complaining to the refs AGAIN] and DJ [for loafing] on separate occasions, and Chris backed him up.

I mean, all you hear these days is that you can't reach "today's player" with old school hardass tactics.

When you have to make excuses about everything, that's not a good look, especially when Ballmer on the other hand had straight up said we made some bad and shortsighted decisions and isn't going around trying to excuse himself. The difference of course is that Doc has a legacy/reputation he wants to keep up /protect while Ballmer is an owner, doesn't matter to him.

Could be. What Ballmer feels--right or wrong--is all that matters here, but Doc's complaint that Sterling's front office was woefully understaffed is valid. [That's Doc's latest e̶x̶c̶u̶s̶e̶ reason for why he's not a total incompetent at personnel.] That Doc is telling his side of the story of Clipper dysfunction is certainly his right. He has not done it until now, and it's only in response to this drip drip drip of leaks mostly concerning Chris Paul.

If Ballmer wants to move on from Doc that's fine, as long as there's no finger-pointing, Doc doesn't need to speak. However, this stuff originating with Chris needs to be responded to, if he wants to keep his rep. In fact, Vinny has been silent about his Clipper days but also has never worked again. Maybe he should have told more of his side of the story.

I think you hit on part of the issue, if riding Austin was an issue, and I have no clue if it was or where that was reported, how hard can you ride him with his dad as coach and GM? How do we know the other players weren't riding him, but felt no support from the coach? If Doc is out in post-game saying Austin's defense was excellent (which was a common comment of his), are you going to go and now tell Austin he made all these mistakes on defense? The coach is still the head figure, and if Austin wasn't being made accountable as much as others by the coach, players can't substitute for that, it's not realistic. Doc was learning about the whole dynamic too though.

As for Chris, et al., not holding Austin accountable, that they didn't is a lack of leadership. You think LeBron puts up with that s#*% regardless of who the coach is? That's the difference between a champion and a Chris Paul, who prefers to whine about it. [And after the fact at that.] That sort of crystallizes my whole line of thought here.

Chemistry this season can't be compared to previous seasons. These were basically all new players. The other team had baggage that caused their chemistry issues. Blake and Paul used to to BGCP3TV when they started together, everything is happy when it is fresh. Look at how great the Rockets chemistry is. If they lose early or don't have finals or championship in 3 years, I would like to revisit that chemistry.

LOL, I've had that thought. D'Antoni in particular is rather known as a "non-coach" who let's 'em run and doesn't hassle his team with boring stuff like defense. Like Chris's first coach in LA.

[MartinToVaught]

How can any player hold Austin accountable when his dad is the coach?

[og15]

Reasons, not "excuses." The question is whether any other mortal man [Jerry West is the Chuck Norris of personnel decisions, not a mortal man] could have done anything different and better, and if so, what? Kevin Garnett said that Doc wasn't tough enough on the Clippers and I'm sure that CP agreed with that. But how do you ride DJ and Blake, who are happy-go-lucky types who do their best work when ridden gently? In fact there's a story that Austin called out both Blake [for complaining to the refs AGAIN] and DJ [for loafing] on separate occasions, and Chris backed him up.

I mean, all you hear these days is that you can't reach "today's player" with old school hardass tactics.

I actually have no issue with reasonable explanations, even after the fact (before is an explanation, after is an excuse), what I'm saying is that when you have to start giving so many reasons and about everything, it's just kind of like, come on man! I've said this before, even before you were on the forum, and when I find myself saying it every year, then it starts to feel to me like why is Doc always trying to lay a foundation to absolve himself from blame?

Could be. What Ballmer feels--right or wrong--is all that matters here, but Doc's complaint that Sterling's front office was woefully understaffed is valid. [That's Doc's latest e̶x̶c̶u̶s̶e̶ reason for why he's not a total incompetent at personnel.] That Doc is telling his side of the story of Clipper dysfunction is certainly his right. He has not done it until now, and it's only in response to this drip drip drip of leaks mostly concerning Chris Paul.

Yup, and Doc had been part of functioning front offices, actually one of the league's best in Boston, and he knew what it took, at least I would hope he did. He knew the Clippers were understaffed, they got a new owner who had no clue what was going on with a basketball franchise (which allowed Doc to get more power), and with whom money wasn't an issue. Despite that, the front office was still mainly bare-bones until Frank was promoted and it wasn't until this season, 3 years after Ballmer took over that they become more functioning. I'm interested in the excuse, reason for that one.

If Ballmer wants to move on from Doc that's fine, as long as there's no finger-pointing, Doc doesn't need to speak. However, this stuff originating with Chris needs to be responded to, if he wants to keep his rep. In fact, Vinny has been silent about his Clipper days but also has never worked again. Maybe he should have told more of his side of the story.

Actually Vinny wasn't silent and Doc will always speak, we know that

“At the end of the day, they haven’t done any better, they haven’t won any more games, they haven’t gotten out of the second round, so it’s hard to blame me right now,” Del Negro said.

“Rivers called the Warriors lucky because they didn’t play us or the Spurs”, to, I assume, get a better reaction from the former Clippers coach, to which Del Negro would respond “it’s called diversion.” “Let’s not look at the real problems, let’s have you look at these shiny objects over here. Let’s look at these shiny objects over here so we don’t have to look at the real issues, or why we lost or whatever.

“So, look in the mirror and get it done. They have enough talent, they’ve got two of the top-10 players, they have the wealthiest owner, the salary cap is irrelevant – you can pay the tax – everything is in your favor. Get it done. The DeAndre Jordan thing is over, you got him back; that could’ve slipped through your hands but it didn’t. But guys got to step up.”

https://clipperholics.com/2015/10/14/vinny-del-negro-piles-on-clippers-doc-rivers-for-lack-of-success/

As for Chris, et al., not holding Austin accountable, that they didn't is a lack of leadership. You think LeBron puts up with that s#*% regardless of who the coach is? That's the difference between a champion and a Chris Paul, who prefers to whine about it. [And after the fact at that.] That sort of crystallizes my whole line of thought here.

No other player in the league has the kind of power Lebron has, but no other team in the league has a player whose dad is the coach and President of Basketball Operations. My point was that why are you just assuming the players didn't hold Austin accountable? What is that based of? Then even if they did, if the coach who again is both the coach and the POBO isn't, that basically undermines them. I'm truly interested as to why you feel Doc should be absolved or responsibility, fault, and accountability here (and in many other things). I'm legitimately curious, it's rare you see someone making the argument you are trying to make here.

LOL, I've had that thought. D'Antoni in particular is rather known as a "non-coach" who let's 'em run and doesn't hassle his team with boring stuff like defense. Like Chris's first coach in LA.

That's why they got Bzdelik, but even if MDA was the league's best coach, the Warriors don't magically disappear. Someone asked Morey this question in the Reddit AMA:

Q: This morning an article came out about how agonizing watching Rockets games can be for you. With that being said, how many years has Jeff Bzdelik added to your life expectancy? Our defensive lapses in the past had to have been particularly agonizing.

A: Jeff Bzdelik has improved my sleep mostly

Hahaha, but yea, they definitely made strides defensively compared to previous season, though getting better defenders (Paul, Tucker, Mbah) kinda helps a lot.

[esqtvd]

I actually have no issue with reasonable explanations, even after the fact (before is an explanation, after is an excuse), what I'm saying is that when you have to start giving so many reasons and about everything, it's just kind of like, come on man! I've said this before, even before you were on the forum, and when I find myself saying it every year, then it starts to feel to me like why is Doc always trying to lay a foundation to absolve himself from blame?

Because he doesn't feel he is to blame! He walked into the most dysfunctional org in all of American sports and left it far better than he found it. That's Doc's story and he's sticking to it.

I don't think it's a bad case.

...but Doc's complaint that Sterling's front office was woefully understaffed is valid. [That's Doc's latest e̶x̶c̶u̶s̶e̶ reason for why he's not a total incompetent at personnel.] That Doc is telling his side of the story of Clipper dysfunction is certainly his right. He has not done it until now, and it's only in response to this drip drip drip of leaks mostly concerning Chris Paul.

Yup, and Doc had been part of functioning front offices, actually one of the league's best in Boston, and he knew what it took, at least I would hope he did. He knew the Clippers were understaffed, they got a new owner who had no clue what was going on with a basketball franchise (which allowed Doc to get more power), and with whom money wasn't an issue. Despite that, the front office was still mainly bare-bones until Frank was promoted and it wasn't until this season, 3 years after Ballmer took over that they become more functioning. I'm interested in the excuse, reason for that one.

The timeline is this: It was Doc who moved Lawrence Frank to the front office in June 2016. It was under PoBO Doc that the org was massively overhauled in September 2016.

https://www.ocregister.com/2016/09/23/clippers-announce-staff-changes/

Here’s the release from the team:

The L.A. Clippers today announced multiple additions and promotions to the basketball operations staff. John Welch and Patrick Sullivan join the coaching staff as assistant coaches, while Dee Brown comes on as Director of Player Programs.

Other Basketball Operations additions include:

Johnny Rogers – Director of Pro Player Personnel

Ross Flowers – Director of Sports Performance Psychology

Mark Simpson – Director of Performance

Robert Picker – Director of Team Security

Jay Porterfield – Performance Scientist/Biomedical Analyst

Paul Hewitt – NBA Pro Scout

John Loyer – NBA Pro Scout

Monte Mathis – NBA Pro Scout

Darrel Johnson – College Scout

Donnie Jones – College Scout

Chris Holguin – Assistant Video Coordinator

Ashton Williams – Assistant Equipment Manager

Jordan Borucki – Basketball Operations Manager

Rishabh Desai – Basketball Operations Seasonal Assistant

Ayodeji Egbeyemi – Basketball Operations Seasonal Assistant

Tim Brown – Athletic Training Intern

In addition, the following members of the Clippers basketball operations department have received promotions. Jason Piombetti has been elevated to Director of College Player Personnel and Dave Severns has been named NBA Pro Scout. Enver Soobzokov has been named D-League Scout while Tommy Murdock has been elevated to Assistant Athletic Trainer. Annemarie Loflin is named Chief of Staff of Basketball Operations, Kris Medhipour is the new Scouting Manager and Ali Mitchell is Manager of Basketball Administration.

Was this also Ballmer's doing? Let's say yes. But it never would have happened under Sterling. We had two trainers and a handful of scouts. So yeah, Doc's not going to take the blame for anything in the Sterling era.

“At the end of the day, they haven’t done any better, they haven’t won any more games, they haven’t gotten out of the second round, so it’s hard to blame me right now,” Del Negro said.



LOL. Not that it's helped Vinny. But my point was that Vinny didn't do dirt on the org or any of the players. Maybe he should've.



“Rivers called the Warriors lucky because they didn’t play us or the Spurs”, to, I assume, get a better reaction from the former Clippers coach, to which Del Negro would respond “it’s called diversion.” “Let’s not look at the real problems, let’s have you look at these shiny objects over here. Let’s look at these shiny objects over here so we don’t have to look at the real issues, or why we lost or whatever.

“So, look in the mirror and get it done. They have enough talent, they’ve got two of the top-10 players, they have the wealthiest owner, the salary cap is irrelevant – you can pay the tax – everything is in your favor. Get it done. The DeAndre Jordan thing is over, you got him back; that could’ve slipped through your hands but it didn’t. But guys got to step up.”

https://clipperholics.com/2015/10/14/vinny-del-negro-piles-on-clippers-doc-rivers-for-lack-of-success/

"But guys got to step up." In the end, that's the rebuttal to the anti-Doc narrative. The guys didn't. The leaders didn't lead either. Instead, we have Chris out there pretty much putting all the blame on Doc. Now, Doc's not directly counterattacking Chris himself, but he is not taking it lying down either.

No other player in the league has the kind of power Lebron has, but no other team in the league has a player whose dad is the coach and President of Basketball Operations. My point was that why are you just assuming the players didn't hold Austin accountable? What is that based of? Then even if they did, if the coach who again is both the coach and the POBO isn't, that basically undermines them. I'm truly interested as to why you feel Doc should be absolved or responsibility, fault, and accountability here (and in many other things). I'm legitimately curious, it's rare you see someone making the argument you are trying to make here.

I'm exploring the argument. Chris had the power to get one coach fired [whether or not the other players agreed is moot: If Chris wanted VDN to stay, he'd have stayed]. Chris did not lead. He could have gone to Doc with his concerns. He could have put together the veterans to handle things quietly without Doc.

Chris had his critics and fingers pointed at him too while he was here. Chris is doing the same thing Doc is--telling his side and of course absolving himself of the blame. But as they say, it's a players' league and the superstars have more weight than coaches. If Doc wanted ball movement but Chris wanted the dribbledribble slowdown game, well, Chris had the ball. If Doc said, it's him or me, Doc is the one who's out the window. If Chris decided Doc was the problem, Ballmer would have dumped him.

That's why I think the whole Austin thing is petty BS. If things were going well, if Chris had truly made it HIS team, it would have been a minor annoyance. As the Arnovitz article put it,

Perhaps a locker room with a more resilient emotional constitution would've chosen not to make Austin's presence an issue, but Doc was well-acquainted with his team's combustibility. And when Doc extended a 3-year, $35 million contract to Austin in the summer of 2016, the atmosphere was heightened even more, especially when Austin assumed a more vocal posture with his teammates that fall, even as he continued to grow as a productive player.

"When you don't win, then you look for reasons why," Doc Rivers says. "So first it's, 'Blake and Chris don't get along.' That was first. Then it was, 'Doc the GM.' Then it was, 'Austin Rivers.' The question you can ask after the fact is that, 'Because of the team, was it the right move?' In retrospect, would I have done it again? 'I don't know' is the answer. But when you look at how he's playing now versus when we got him, yeah. But I don't know, because it's very complicated."

I think the one thing Arnovitz misses here is how desperate we were for talent when we acquired him, and Austin was productive from the first. When he was re-signed, we were capped out, meaning we could either sign our own FAs, or only minimum wagers. Austin's contract was not out of line with that crazy summer of 2016 market, and with the sands running out on Chris and Blake's opt-outs, we couldn't afford to lose him.

If Chris was going to let how Doc treated our 7th or 8th man [Austin] break up the Clippers, I think that's small-minded and petty, and I lay that at Chris's feet. It was a minor issue, and as previously stated, I don't buy it: I think Chris gave up on being the leader of his own team, and went and joined somebody else's. Now, I don't really blame him—Blake isn't championship material and Harden is [or may be anyway], and DJ hogs too much sal cap space to afford more depth. Chris was mentally and spiritually exhausted trying to make it all work, and physically not dominant enough either.

But he's hardly going to admit that--even to himself--so we get this Austin excuse.

[Ranma]

I finally got a chance to fully read the Arnovitz article that I posted the tweet about on the first page of this thread and it basically confirms what I've said about Doc the whole time, but only phrased in a nice way. He's a snake-oil salesman who's good at whispering sweet nothings into unsuspecting players' ears and blowing smoke up their behinds, but is quick to turn on those same players and deflect from his own culpability in things not working out while pointing his finger at players to be held responsible. His outright lie of the Redick situation is a prime example of his spinning of non-truths.

Heck, I was among the rare optimists who thought Doc was one of the few people who could reach his son Austin when nobody else could, including Coach K, but that doesn't make his preferential treatment of him at the expense of the team and other players forgivable or worth the grief.

I also stated from the beginning that I thought he was an overrated coach who couldn't win without a roster stacked full of stars while recognizing that he is a good coach with respect to the X's and O's, but what makes him better than Mike Budenholzer, who is considered one of the league's best tacticians? I guess Doc's affability and false aura makes him more attractive as a sales package, so the hope now is that we can still pawn him off to someone else who buys his BS.

Kevin Arnovitz, ESPN.com (4/11/18)

Several former Clippers characterized in Rivers a tendency to placate a player by telling him what he wanted to hear, on occasion even criticizing a teammate that player was beefing with. Rivers didn't account for the fact that players, even ones who aren't always simpatico, talk among themselves and exchange notes. Though players regard him as reasonably honest in film sessions and on game night, keeping inventory of what their coach said about specific players became a parlor game among those players and their confidants.

Rivers' salesmanship has long been heralded as a strong suit. "We are all selling our stuff," he says, "That's what coaches do. We've got to sell what you think is the best way to win." But even those who admire Rivers' leadership style recognize his propensity to promise roles to players that don't materialize.

For the Clippers, Rivers' message was an illustration of the degree to which the relationship between coach and roster had deteriorated: Rivers had all but abdicated his responsibilities because he perceived his team was soft. His message was the coaches' equivalent of: "I wish you were never born."

Rivers' analysis dovetails with a sentiment expressed by more than a few former NBA players, well-tenured coaches and executives: He's been overrated as a manager of relationships and egos, and quite underrated as a practitioner of X's and O's with a practical sensibility and a creative flair.

The Pride of the Shipwrecked Captain

[Ranma]

I've also been an admirer of Messina's accomplishments overseas, but I'm curious if he's actually ready to be an NBA head coach. He has received great training with the Spurs organization, but Budenholzer--another Spurs alumnus--is still my preferred choice among the available candidates to be Doc's replacement.

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