Ringer Article: Into the Dark, A Recap of the 2017-2018 Orlando Magic

[MagicFan101]

Who were they going to draft? Fultz over (at the time IT/Kyrie), Smart, Rozier.

Also, Brown is a slasher without a reliable jump shot and they draft Tatum a versatile creator on the wing. Hence why they drafted for fit and skill. Thanks for proving my point.

Maybe Ainge just understands that specific positions have value (specifically wings) as opposed to drafting bigs or quadrupling his guard rotation.

Using Boston is a terrible example because they have 2 super stars off the bat top 5 in their positions in Kyrie and Hayward. They are looking at finding solid contributors and drafting for high floor at that point...

Trading down to get Irving was a no brainer. So now Fultz isn’t a target and PG isn’t a need. But with the worst kept secret in the league being Gordon Hayward is heading to Boston, they didn’t have a need at SF. So why draft Tatum if fit is so important? ... it’s because fit is not what smart teams care about in the draft. Free agency, sure. But in the draft you focus on stockpiling cheap talent.

Exactly.

Successful teams have the luxury of doing whatever the **** they want in the draft when they already have the cornerstones to build upon. They were drafting for floor and versatility at that point.

So your argument is that rebuilding teams lacking a star should give up on finding a star and instead draft for who compliments Vuc or AG; for example?

I say rebuilding teams should aim for finding a star at all cost. If that means playing time for current players yet to emerge is hurt then tough **** for them.

[VFX]

Trading down to get Irving was a no brainer. So now Fultz isn’t a target and PG isn’t a need. But with the worst kept secret in the league being Gordon Hayward is heading to Boston, they didn’t have a need at SF. So why draft Tatum if fit is so important? ... it’s because fit is not what smart teams care about in the draft. Free agency, sure. But in the draft you focus on stockpiling cheap talent.

Exactly.

Successful teams have the luxury of doing whatever the **** they want in the draft when they already have the cornerstones to build upon. They were drafting for floor and versatility at that point.

So your argument is that rebuilding teams lacking a star should give up on finding a star and instead draft for who compliments Vuc or AG; for example?

I say rebuilding teams should aim for finding a star at all cost. If that means playing time for current player yet to emerge is impeded on then tough **** for them.

No. My argument is that you don’t draft players that are incompatible with the youth you are investing in long term in Isaac and AG. You have to start with a framework somewhere. Either that, or make some trades if they aren’t the players to build around.

As far as Hennigan goes, he drafted an athletic SG with questions about his shot, a PG that was known to not have a shot, and an athletic face up PF that had questions about his shooting. This all happened in his first few drafts of a pivotal rebuild.

I’m merely pointing out that at some point building a roster has to take place with skill sets in mind. Hennigan didn’t early on and it got him in the long run.

[MagicFan101]

Exactly.

Successful teams have the luxury of doing whatever the **** they want in the draft when they already have the cornerstones to build upon. They were drafting for floor and versatility at that point.

So your argument is that rebuilding teams lacking a star should give up on finding a star and instead draft for who compliments Vuc or AG; for example?

I say rebuilding teams should aim for finding a star at all cost. If that means playing time for current player yet to emerge is impeded on then tough **** for them.

No. My argument is that you don’t draft players that are incompatible with the youth you are investing in long term in Isaac and AG. You have to start with a framework somewhere. Either that, or make some trades if they aren’t the players to build around.

As far as Hennigan goes, he drafted an athletic SG with questions about his shot, a PG that was known to not have a shot, and an athletic face up PF that had questions about his shooting. This all happened in his first few drafts of a pivotal rebuild.

I’m merely pointing out that at some point building a roster has to take place with skill sets in mind. Hennigan didn’t early on and it got him in the long run.

We haven’t invested in Isaac or AG yet. We have to make that decision on AG this summer but it hasn’t been made yet. Isaac is on a rookie contract for years to come. That is a luxury, not a commitment.

Neither is entitled to anything at the moment.

[PennytoShaq]

None of this matters when a once in a generation talent is drafted in Simmons. You take him and move into building from there.

Okafor was a bust and they immediately moved on because it wasn’t clear Embiid was a franchise changing player at that point so BPA made sense.

They needed shooting and improvement from the PG position? Taking Fultz = fit and skill.

Using Philly as an example alone is pretty funny considering they have been doing the exact opposite of what Orlando has done.

Draft player - Evaluate after a couple years - Move them while they still have value if they aren’t good - Repeat.

While Orlando drafts players, let’s them rot on the bench / play them out of position, plays vets over them killing any trade value they have, or is faced with overpaying mediocre players that haven’t proven anything.

Of course it matters. If it doesn't fit your narrative, that doesn't mean it does not matter. You are talking about the Magic's past like it will be the present. I don't think it will with this FO.

Reality is that the draft is a crapshoot and so Philly took BPA every time and played the numbers that at some point they would get star players.

Sorry let me reiterate. It doesn’t matter to me in the scope of this argument. You draft Simmons 10/10 times regardless of your roster. This draft doesn’t have that player, other than my personal preference in Doncic. That’s the point.

All the other selections they made were BPA and they cut bait because they ended up being busts MCW / Okafor. So 76ers are a terrible example of why you don’t draft BPA all the time, but they still remain successful because they landed on Embiid and Simmons who both only until this year look amazing. So you are proving my point. Thanks.

No I am not proving your point at all, you are just missing mine. The point is that rebuilding teams draft for ceiling over fit. It's just how it is. They know that not every pick will work, which is why it was dubbed "the process". Additionally, your assessment of this draft is probably not accurate since you seem to hate Centers and only want wings. A lot of execs consider Ayton to be a superstar talent, and in fact Doncic is predicted in many mocks to go 3-4. Your acknowledgement of Embiid as a generational talent, if anything, proves my point more than yours. And he looked amazing last year as well. You know, the first year he actually played.

Doncic is not Simmons.Simmons was the clear #1 in that draft and the player with the highest ceiling. As good as Doncic may be, he does not project to that level. Simmons simply has much higher athleticism.

[MagicFan101]

Exactly.

Successful teams have the luxury of doing whatever the **** they want in the draft when they already have the cornerstones to build upon. They were drafting for floor and versatility at that point.

So your argument is that rebuilding teams lacking a star should give up on finding a star and instead draft for who compliments Vuc or AG; for example?

I say rebuilding teams should aim for finding a star at all cost. If that means playing time for current player yet to emerge is impeded on then tough **** for them.

No. My argument is that you don’t draft players that are incompatible with the youth you are investing in long term in Isaac and AG. You have to start with a framework somewhere. Either that, or make some trades if they aren’t the players to build around.

As far as Hennigan goes, he drafted an athletic SG with questions about his shot, a PG that was known to not have a shot, and an athletic face up PF that had questions about his shooting. This all happened in his first few drafts of a pivotal rebuild.

I’m merely pointing out that at some point building a roster has to take place with skill sets in mind. Hennigan didn’t early on and it got him in the long run.

I think our fundamental difference comes down to when is the right time to start building a roster.

Boston is the perfect example for my line of thinking... for exactly the reason you claim they are not.

IMO, worrying about building the right roster should happen AFTER you have a star (or two) to build around. We haven’t found one. Maybe AG continues to emerge? Maybe Isaac becomes that guy? I don’t know. You don’t know. No one knows. Therefore we cannot assume anything and must remain in search of a star regardless of position.

[VFX]

Of course it matters. If it doesn't fit your narrative, that doesn't mean it does not matter. You are talking about the Magic's past like it will be the present. I don't think it will with this FO.

Reality is that the draft is a crapshoot and so Philly took BPA every time and played the numbers that at some point they would get star players.

Sorry let me reiterate. It doesn’t matter to me in the scope of this argument. You draft Simmons 10/10 times regardless of your roster. This draft doesn’t have that player, other than my personal preference in Doncic. That’s the point.

All the other selections they made were BPA and they cut bait because they ended up being busts MCW / Okafor. So 76ers are a terrible example of why you don’t draft BPA all the time, but they still remain successful because they landed on Embiid and Simmons who both only until this year look amazing. So you are proving my point. Thanks.

No I am not proving your point at all, you are just missing mine. The point is that rebuilding teams draft for ceiling over fit. It's just how it is. They know that not every pick will work, which is why it was dubbed "the process". Additionally, your assessment of this draft is probably not accurate since you seem to hate Centers and only want wings. A lot of execs consider Ayton to be a superstar talent, and in fact Doncic is predicted in many mocks to go 3-4. Your acknowledgement of Embiid as a generational talent, if anything, proves my point more than yours. And he looked amazing last year as well. You know, the first year he actually played.

Doncic is not Simmons.Simmons was the clear #1 in that draft and the player with the highest ceiling. As good as Doncic may be, he does not project to that level. Simmons simply has much higher athleticism.

First, I don’t acknowledge Embiid as the same talent level as Simmons. Those are your words, not mine. He is a great player. Simmons is extraordinary.

Second, Centers almost never pan out as expected. The ones that play for remotely successful teams in the nba aren’t even heralded going into the draft process. Look at any team with a possibility of winning a championship.(I’ll help you out here - Twolves and Pelicans outside of Embiid are the only two teams and none are anywhere close) Hence why I’m personally against drafting them with a top pick. This isn’t the early 2000’s and there is enough evidence to prove you don’t need an all star center to be a good team.

Lastly, I got your point. You are the one missing the point of this thread. Hennigan drafted without recognizing he was overlooking needed skill sets. As the author noted, there is no cohesion and hasn’t been to this organization’s roster for years now. Using the 76ers as a diversion from the point is on you. Sure, they chose BPA and it worked after 5 drafts when they landed a superstar cornerstone in Simmons... and?

[pepe1991]

Embiid and Simmons were clear 1# picks in their drafts , one fall because of injury to 3# but he was getting legit Hakeem comparisons, and we know why so they were complete no brainers.

Key of 76ers success should be looked elsewhere.
1) coaching. Pick good guy, trust him ,tell him that it's not his fault that team will suck. Be supportive.
2). evaluate other talents that fit your future . I'll post video below of all players they tried through few years
3). pick good ones
4). get rid of bad ones when they have value
5) . make draft mistakes, it's ok, as long as your path is clear
6). trust a process

Watch on YouTube

[PennytoShaq]

Sorry let me reiterate. It doesn’t matter to me in the scope of this argument. You draft Simmons 10/10 times regardless of your roster. This draft doesn’t have that player, other than my personal preference in Doncic. That’s the point.

All the other selections they made were BPA and they cut bait because they ended up being busts MCW / Okafor. So 76ers are a terrible example of why you don’t draft BPA all the time, but they still remain successful because they landed on Embiid and Simmons who both only until this year look amazing. So you are proving my point. Thanks.

No I am not proving your point at all, you are just missing mine. The point is that rebuilding teams draft for ceiling over fit. It's just how it is. They know that not every pick will work, which is why it was dubbed "the process". Additionally, your assessment of this draft is probably not accurate since you seem to hate Centers and only want wings. A lot of execs consider Ayton to be a superstar talent, and in fact Doncic is predicted in many mocks to go 3-4. Your acknowledgement of Embiid as a generational talent, if anything, proves my point more than yours. And he looked amazing last year as well. You know, the first year he actually played.

Doncic is not Simmons.Simmons was the clear #1 in that draft and the player with the highest ceiling. As good as Doncic may be, he does not project to that level. Simmons simply has much higher athleticism.

First, I don’t acknowledge Embiid as the same talent level as Simmons. Those are your words, not mine. He is a great player. Simmons is extraordinary.

Second, Centers almost never pan out as expected. The ones that play for remotely successful teams in the nba aren’t even heralded going into the draft process. Look at any team with a possibility of winning a championship.(I’ll help you out here - Twolves and Pelicans outside of Embiid are the only two teams and none are anywhere close) Hence why I’m personally against drafting them with a top pick. This isn’t the early 2000’s and there is enough evidence to prove you don’t need an all star center to be a good team.

Lastly, I got your point. You are the one missing the point of this thread. Hennigan drafted without recognizing he was overlooking needed skill sets. As the author noted, there is no cohesion and hasn’t been to this organization’s roster for years now. Using the 76ers as a diversion from the point is on you. Sure, they chose BPA and it worked after 5 drafts when they landed a superstar cornerstone in Simmons... and?

Again I don't miss the point at all. I just eplained what Hennigan was trying to do, as it seems that it's common for random people on the internet to criticize guys who work in the NBA as a full time job.

Assuming that Hennigan drafted without recognizing that he was missing skillsets on his team is just ridiculous. I talked to him multiple times and he knows more about basketball than we ever will. He took gambles on players that he thought were the most athletically gifted at their draft position.

The 76ers example is by no means a diversion of the point. Rebuilding a team is very difficult and you have to play the odds.The 6ers played the odds that they could amass a lot of picks and get 1-2 stars. The Magic did not have that many picks so they had to play the odds that they could turn these athletes into shooters. And again - that is based on the theory that shooting can be taught and developed in young players. That's all I was saying the entire time. If you want to complain about if it worked or not, that is fine. I don' t cry over spilled milk. I look at the current situation we are in now and try to asses with the new FO's plan is. Some people would rather try and feel that they know more than a GM and criticize everything a FO does. To me that is a waste of time.

[VFX]

No I am not proving your point at all, you are just missing mine. The point is that rebuilding teams draft for ceiling over fit. It's just how it is. They know that not every pick will work, which is why it was dubbed "the process". Additionally, your assessment of this draft is probably not accurate since you seem to hate Centers and only want wings. A lot of execs consider Ayton to be a superstar talent, and in fact Doncic is predicted in many mocks to go 3-4. Your acknowledgement of Embiid as a generational talent, if anything, proves my point more than yours. And he looked amazing last year as well. You know, the first year he actually played.

Doncic is not Simmons.Simmons was the clear #1 in that draft and the player with the highest ceiling. As good as Doncic may be, he does not project to that level. Simmons simply has much higher athleticism.

First, I don’t acknowledge Embiid as the same talent level as Simmons. Those are your words, not mine. He is a great player. Simmons is extraordinary.

Second, Centers almost never pan out as expected. The ones that play for remotely successful teams in the nba aren’t even heralded going into the draft process. Look at any team with a possibility of winning a championship.(I’ll help you out here - Twolves and Pelicans outside of Embiid are the only two teams and none are anywhere close) Hence why I’m personally against drafting them with a top pick. This isn’t the early 2000’s and there is enough evidence to prove you don’t need an all star center to be a good team.

Lastly, I got your point. You are the one missing the point of this thread. Hennigan drafted without recognizing he was overlooking needed skill sets. As the author noted, there is no cohesion and hasn’t been to this organization’s roster for years now. Using the 76ers as a diversion from the point is on you. Sure, they chose BPA and it worked after 5 drafts when they landed a superstar cornerstone in Simmons... and?

Again I don't miss the point at all. I just eplained what Hennigan was trying to do, as it seems that it's common for random people on the internet to criticize guys who work in the NBA as a full time job.

Assuming that Hennigan drafted without recognizing that he was missing skillsets on his team is just ridiculous. I talked to him multiple times and he knows more about basketball than we ever will. He took gambles on players that he thought were the most athletically gifted at their draft position.

The 76ers example is by no means a diversion of the point. Rebuilding a team is very difficult and you have to play the odds.The 6ers played the odds that they could amass a lot of picks and get 1-2 stars. The Magic did not have that many picks so they had to play the odds that they could turn these athletes into shooters. And again - that is based on the theory that shooting can be taught and developed in young players. That's all I was saying the entire time. If you want to complain about if it worked or not, that is fine. I don' t cry over spilled milk. I look at the current situation we are in now and try to asses with the new FO's plan is. Some people would rather try and feel that they know more than a GM and criticize everything a FO does. To me that is a waste of time.

And here you are here in this forum... why then?
Nice backtracking.

I don’t pretend to know more than Hennigan, but I do know Orlando failed to tank, drafted athleticism over skill in most cases, and drafted diametrically opposed to the direction the league was going in relation to skill sets per position.

He traded for a defense devoid center, drafted an offense devoid point guard, and relied on tweeners to shape out the rest of the roster. I’m not even a Hennigan hater, but drafting and acquiring talent without acknowledging skill sets is exactly what he did.

I can only hope the new FO is planning on building a real roster, and not half-assing it like Orlando has done in the past.

[PennytoShaq]

First, I don’t acknowledge Embiid as the same talent level as Simmons. Those are your words, not mine. He is a great player. Simmons is extraordinary.

Second, Centers almost never pan out as expected. The ones that play for remotely successful teams in the nba aren’t even heralded going into the draft process. Look at any team with a possibility of winning a championship.(I’ll help you out here - Twolves and Pelicans outside of Embiid are the only two teams and none are anywhere close) Hence why I’m personally against drafting them with a top pick. This isn’t the early 2000’s and there is enough evidence to prove you don’t need an all star center to be a good team.

Lastly, I got your point. You are the one missing the point of this thread. Hennigan drafted without recognizing he was overlooking needed skill sets. As the author noted, there is no cohesion and hasn’t been to this organization’s roster for years now. Using the 76ers as a diversion from the point is on you. Sure, they chose BPA and it worked after 5 drafts when they landed a superstar cornerstone in Simmons... and?

Again I don't miss the point at all. I just eplained what Hennigan was trying to do, as it seems that it's common for random people on the internet to criticize guys who work in the NBA as a full time job.

Assuming that Hennigan drafted without recognizing that he was missing skillsets on his team is just ridiculous. I talked to him multiple times and he knows more about basketball than we ever will. He took gambles on players that he thought were the most athletically gifted at their draft position.

The 76ers example is by no means a diversion of the point. Rebuilding a team is very difficult and you have to play the odds.The 6ers played the odds that they could amass a lot of picks and get 1-2 stars. The Magic did not have that many picks so they had to play the odds that they could turn these athletes into shooters. And again - that is based on the theory that shooting can be taught and developed in young players. That's all I was saying the entire time. If you want to complain about if it worked or not, that is fine. I don' t cry over spilled milk. I look at the current situation we are in now and try to asses with the new FO's plan is. Some people would rather try and feel that they know more than a GM and criticize everything a FO does. To me that is a waste of time.

And here you are here in this forum... why then?
Nice backtracking.

I don’t pretend to know more than Hennigan, but I do know Orlando failed to tank, drafted athleticism over skill in most cases, and drafted diametrically opposed to the direction the league was going in relation to skill sets per position.

He traded for a defense devoid center, drafted an offense devoid point guard, and relied on tweeners to shape out the rest of the roster. I’m not even a Hennigan hater, but drafting and acquiring talent without acknowledging skill sets is exactly what he did.

I can only hope the new FO is planning on building a real roster, and not half-assing it like Orlando has done in the past.

There is nothing to backtrack about. Everything I have said has been consistent this entire interaction. What Rob did, did not work but it was not like the guy had no idea what he was doing. He also got pushed to hurry the rebuild up, so we can't pin it all on him. He definitely made many mistakes in FA/trade but we are focused on drafting here.

I do believe that the FO is going to build a real roster. Definitely will be shocked if they don't do that.