WCQF | (4) Oklahoma City Thunder vs Utah Jazz (5) | UTA 4-2

[hardenASG13]

can you define momentum please?

it seems to me like you're assigning carmelo's shots in these instances extra value in order to tell the story you want to tell.

Haha he doesn't need to define every word. Melo was huge in the first quarter, and picked up the team after they came out flat. They immediately came all the way back and rode that momentum to a comfortable win, as the more talented team. No need to denounce everything. He hit big shots early, which is what they need from him, which is to get hot a few times a game and to lift the offense for stretches.

Justin doesn't believe in anything which isn't easily quantifiable with numbers, which means he's out on momentum, hot hand, and clutch.

I'm of the opposite mindset. But he's not going to change his mind.

I know. I mean anyone who has played basketball knows they are absolutely real, and important, but hey, at least he's still trying to convince himself/others of how bad this team is. His regular season stats are incredibly important to this team in this playoff series, where okc has the best players, as I've said all year, and hus regular season stats and charting are the ultimate predictor of success. I mean, who could've guessed this team would look better come playoff time, with a team with numerous stars, capable of hitting crushing momentum shots, and getting the hot hand in the playoffs for extended stretches during playoff games.

[slick_watts]

Justin doesn't believe in anything which isn't easily quantifiable with numbers, which means he's out on momentum, hot hand, and clutch.

that's an over simplification. i don't believe in anything without evidence. i haven't seen convincing evidence, especially for momentum and 'clutch'. hot hand there is some fringe sloan sports stuff but nothing even close to showing a conclusive effect.

my main problem with these ideas is that they are, in the words of bill barnwell, used and abused to distort history and performance on a theoretical level. pille wants to assign special value to anthony's shots because they came after defensive stops and one fit his personal definition of 'dagger'. what if utah came back in the final three minutes? would anthony's last three not have been 'timely'? it's ridiculous to me to think that a made FG has a different value based on independent events that transpire afterwards.

[slick_watts]

I know. I mean anyone who has played basketball knows they are absolutely real

feelings on a basketball court are usually not accurate barometers. this is why you get russell westbrook taking pull-up threes or heat checks. it's like playing poker. it's much easier to see what's going on when you're not in the hand.

[slick_watts]

Field goals that are important momentum wise.

can you define momentum please?

it seems to me like you're assigning carmelo's shots in these instances extra value in order to tell the story you want to tell.

Haha he doesn't need to define every word. Melo was huge in the first quarter, and picked up the team after they came out flat. They immediately came all the way back and rode that momentum to a comfortable win, as the more talented team. No need to denounce everything. He hit big shots early, which is what they need from him, which is to get hot a few times a game and to lift the offense for stretches.

this is narrative schlock.

[hardenASG13]

can you define momentum please?

it seems to me like you're assigning carmelo's shots in these instances extra value in order to tell the story you want to tell.

Haha he doesn't need to define every word. Melo was huge in the first quarter, and picked up the team after they came out flat. They immediately came all the way back and rode that momentum to a comfortable win, as the more talented team. No need to denounce everything. He hit big shots early, which is what they need from him, which is to get hot a few times a game and to lift the offense for stretches.

this is narrative schlock.

Na it's what happened schlock. I can say schlock too, you're not special.

[slick_watts]

Haha he doesn't need to define every word. Melo was huge in the first quarter, and picked up the team after they came out flat. They immediately came all the way back and rode that momentum to a comfortable win, as the more talented team. No need to denounce everything. He hit big shots early, which is what they need from him, which is to get hot a few times a game and to lift the offense for stretches.

this is narrative schlock.

Na it's what happened schlock. I can say schlock too, you're not special.

melo had a productive first quarter with 9 points on 8 shots. that's what happened. all the accouterments are not necessary. 'rode that momentum'? that is 100% narrative schlock. unless you are seriously suggesting that carmelo's first quarter had an effect on how the team played in quarters 2, 3 and most of 4 since melo did not score any points during that time. are you suggesting that? utah tied the game after melo's first 'timely shot' and briefly took the lead back in 2q. i guess melo's inspiration takes a few possessions to kick back into gear?

i'm going to call a spade a spade. melo's line was not inspiring and pille + others want to give it a little help by assigning their own arbitrary value to his performance.

[Andre Roberstan]

this is narrative schlock.

Na it's what happened schlock. I can say schlock too, you're not special.

melo had a productive first quarter with 9 points on 8 shots. that's what happened. all the accouterments are not necessary. 'rode that momentum'? that is 100% narrative schlock. unless you are seriously suggesting that carmelo's first quarter had an effect on how the team played in quarters 2, 3 and most of 4 since melo did not score any points during that time. are you suggesting that? utah tied the game after melo's first 'timely shot' and briefly took the lead back in 2q. i guess melo's inspiration takes a few possessions to kick back into gear?

i'm going to call a spade a spade. melo's line was not inspiring and pille + others want to give it a little help by assigning their own arbitrary value to his performance.

I don't think he was much on offense, but he was definitely more active on defense (and the matchup is a favorable one for him.)

[hardenASG13]

I know. I mean anyone who has played basketball knows they are absolutely real

feelings on a basketball court are usually not accurate barometers. this is why you get russell westbrook taking pull-up threes or heat checks. it's like playing poker. it's much easier to see what's going on when you're not in the hand.

Basketball at its highest level is played on instinct, feel and emotion. The players play freely and confidently, and are an essential part to being a good basketball player. They are reacting to what they see and creating. There is thinking involved, sure, but it's a big part of the game.

Also, If you don't think a player splashing a big three and the home crowd going wild, or something like throwing down a big dunk during a 6-0 run, energizing the home team and crowd, has an effect on a basketball game, I don't think it's even worth discussing with you.

[slick_watts]

Na it's what happened schlock. I can say schlock too, you're not special.

melo had a productive first quarter with 9 points on 8 shots. that's what happened. all the accouterments are not necessary. 'rode that momentum'? that is 100% narrative schlock. unless you are seriously suggesting that carmelo's first quarter had an effect on how the team played in quarters 2, 3 and most of 4 since melo did not score any points during that time. are you suggesting that? utah tied the game after melo's first 'timely shot' and briefly took the lead back in 2q. i guess melo's inspiration takes a few possessions to kick back into gear?

i'm going to call a spade a spade. melo's line was not inspiring and pille + others want to give it a little help by assigning their own arbitrary value to his performance.

I don't think he was much on offense, but he was definitely more active on defense (and the matchup is a favorable one for him.)

i'm worried they are going to put him (favors) in pnr instead of gobert.

defense is a quantifiable thing though. even defensive effort is if you watch. 'momentum' and 'timely shots'? it's just nebulous narrative drivers, it seems.

[hardenASG13]

this is narrative schlock.

Na it's what happened schlock. I can say schlock too, you're not special.

melo had a productive first quarter with 9 points on 8 shots. that's what happened. all the accouterments are not necessary. 'rode that momentum'? that is 100% narrative schlock. unless you are seriously suggesting that carmelo's first quarter had an effect on how the team played in quarters 2, 3 and most of 4 since melo did not score any points during that time. are you suggesting that? utah tied the game after melo's first 'timely shot' and briefly took the lead back in 2q. i guess melo's inspiration takes a few possessions to kick back into gear?

i'm going to call a spade a spade. melo's line was not inspiring and pille + others want to give it a little help by assigning their own arbitrary value to his performance.

You're over thinking it. I'm saying, not suggesting, that he took over offensively and carried his team during the closing minutes of the first. That's a good thing, and that's what he's capable of. Helped the team quickly erase a deficit. That's what OKC needs out him. I can't believe okc looks better than Utah, their net rating over the last 36 games of the regular season was so much better than OKC, and their MOV must have been great!

[slick_watts]

Basketball at its highest level is played on instinct, feel and emotion.

yes, and that instinct and emotion is often incorrect. and i think the best players think about what they are doing on the court a lot more than you are suggesting.

Also, If you don't think a player splashing a big three and the home crowd going wild, or something like throwing down a big dunk during a 6-0 run, energizing the home team and crowd, has an effect on a basketball game, I don't think it's even worth discussing with you.

yes, there is a name for this. it's called home court advantage. that is not what we were talking about.

[slick_watts]

You're over thinking it.

this is precisely the thing i expect to hear from a feelie. don't think too much or you'll poke holes in the narrative, right?

I'm saying, not suggesting, that he took over offensively and carried his team during the closing minutes of the first.

he made shots. he scored 9 points in the last 5+ minutes of the first. there's no reason to make this into something it isn't. you are suggesting that this somehow had an effect on how the team performed the rest of the way (invoking the word 'momentum'). and pille wants to call three of those 9 points particularly special and 'timely'. that's what my problem is.

Helped the team quickly erase a deficit.

so did a lot of other things, like defensive stops or george's two threes, or abrines' 5 points in 3 minutes. why aren't those 'timely'? why aren't those 'carrying the team'? why is melo's activity assigned special value? i know why.

I can't believe okc looks better than Utah, their net rating over the last 36 games of the regular season was so much better than OKC, and their MOV must have been great!

you've been retreating and retreating over and over into a corner all season, moving your goal posts. i hope the thunder win the series.

[Andre Roberstan]

i'm worried they are going to put him (favors) in pnr instead of gobert.

defense is a quantifiable thing though. even defensive effort is if you watch. 'momentum' and 'timely shots'? it's just nebulous narrative drivers, it seems.

Thunder guards did a good job of rotating to help on PnR, and Gobert is less useful out of the paint than Favors is. If they put Favors in PnR, I'm actually LESS concerned.

If the guards stay as active cutting the legs out of Jazz big men on help coverage as they were this game, it's pretty doable.

[Andre Roberstan]

Side note: this feels like a huge Abrines series. His 3pt shooting is excellent, and the Jazz don't really have the personnel to target him that well. He seems more comfortable playing against ball movement teams that don't have a lot of guys that can punish him off the dribble (probably because he spent so much time in Euro ball).

[slick_watts]

Side note: this feels like a huge Abrines series. His 3pt shooting is excellent, and the Jazz don't really have the personnel to target him that well. He seems more comfortable playing against ball movement teams that don't have a lot of guys that can punish him off the dribble (probably because he spent so much time in Euro ball).

i definitely agree here. i wish they'd start him.

[Andre Roberstan]

Side note: this feels like a huge Abrines series. His 3pt shooting is excellent, and the Jazz don't really have the personnel to target him that well. He seems more comfortable playing against ball movement teams that don't have a lot of guys that can punish him off the dribble (probably because he spent so much time in Euro ball).

i definitely agree here. i wish they'd start him.

I honestly thought about putting it out on Twitter today, but felt that might be a hot take too far. I don't know if Corey scores ANY points without the big 3's gravity.

[slick_watts]

Side note: this feels like a huge Abrines series. His 3pt shooting is excellent, and the Jazz don't really have the personnel to target him that well. He seems more comfortable playing against ball movement teams that don't have a lot of guys that can punish him off the dribble (probably because he spent so much time in Euro ball).

i definitely agree here. i wish they'd start him.

I honestly thought about putting it out on Twitter today, but felt that might be a hot take too far. I don't know if Corey scores ANY points without the big 3's gravity.

you have my axe.

or you would if i didn't stop using twitter.

[hardenASG13]

You're over thinking it.

this is precisely the thing i expect to hear from a feelie. don't think too much or you'll poke holes in the narrative, right?

I'm saying, not suggesting, that he took over offensively and carried his team during the closing minutes of the first.

he made shots. he scored 9 points in the last 5+ minutes of the first. there's no reason to make this into something it isn't. you are suggesting that this somehow had an effect on how the team performed the rest of the way (invoking the word 'momentum'). and pille wants to call three of those 9 points particularly special and 'timely'. that's what my problem is.

Helped the team quickly erase a deficit.

so did a lot of other things, like defensive stops or george's two threes, or abrines' 5 points in 3 minutes. why aren't those 'timely'? why aren't those 'carrying the team'? why is melo's activity assigned special value? i know why.

I can't believe okc looks better than Utah, their net rating over the last 36 games of the regular season was so much better than OKC, and their MOV must have been great!

you've been retreating and retreating over and over into a corner all season, moving your goal posts. i hope the thunder win the series.

Haha no like I said, you are over thinking it. Again, it's no narrative, he had 9 points in the last 5 minutes. Nobody is saying that 9 points affected how they played during gameplay of the other quarters, but you. It did lift the teams spirit though, which is helpful to how they played. Their elite skill took over, of course.

9 points in 5 minutes is really good. He's the third option, sometimes fourth, and did it at a time where some other things weren't working very well offesnively. He did what the team needs him to, at a time they needed it. Is that not timely? That's all anyone is saying, the rest is in your head.

To you're other point, about why are those other stretches not timely or carrying the team? You are again over thinking it, embarrassingly so.....They were! Abrines hit some backbreaking 3s, and George completely carried the team at times. It was awesome, and combined with Westbrook and what melo did at the end of the first was a great team effort.

I've been saying they'd be a much better playoff team than regular season team all season.

[Pillendreher]

Side note: this feels like a huge Abrines series. His 3pt shooting is excellent, and the Jazz don't really have the personnel to target him that well. He seems more comfortable playing against ball movement teams that don't have a lot of guys that can punish him off the dribble (probably because he spent so much time in Euro ball).

He should tweet "This is for Chuck"

[Pillendreher]

i'm worried they are going to put him (favors) in pnr instead of gobert.

defense is a quantifiable thing though. even defensive effort is if you watch. 'momentum' and 'timely shots'? it's just nebulous narrative drivers, it seems.

Thunder guards did a good job of rotating to help on PnR, and Gobert is less useful out of the paint than Favors is. If they put Favors in PnR, I'm actually LESS concerned.

If the guards stay as active cutting the legs out of Jazz big men on help coverage as they were this game, it's pretty doable.

Yeah. I wouldn't worry about that either, unless they decide to trap the PnR again. On a team level, the Jazz have finished the 3rd most PnR possessions with their ball handler league wide. And that also constitutes the biggest freq % among teams. Yet they are 27th in PPP. If they want to try more PnR, the defense should just drop back and go under every screen since none of their point guards can shoot.

PS: They have been (way) better when the Roll Man finishes the PnR (11th overall), but that's just ~20 % of their PnR possessions. And again: You can still just go under because neither their point guards nor their bigmen can shoot. Bait them into taking those shots.