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Political Roundtable Part XIX

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1761 » by dckingsfan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:32 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:That they aren't equally (or more so) of perpetuating really stupid programs that have bankrupted state an local governments? :nonono:

Here's the thing, you keep pointing to the state and local level, and yet you keep using those arguments on the presidential level when they don't nearly hold up on the presidential level to the same degree you're alleging. No the Ds aren't infallible and even their presidents make some pretty serious mistakes, but if you want to make large sweeping arguments, it really should be that presidentially people should vote D because they haven't been nearly the disaster that R presidents have been, and then on the state and local levels they should consider their options depending on what either given party is doing at that point, or just flat out abstain from voting because it doesn't matter if you go bankrupt by overspending or by running out of revenues due to massive tax cuts or both since you're bankrupt either way.

So, Presidents don't create the budgets. That is the legislatures purview. And on a federal level both parties are equally complicit in bankrupting the country. But Ds point at Rs and Rs at Ds.

The proof that they are both complicit is at the state level where states controlled by both parties have bankrupted their state an local governments.

And when we have had the federal government controlled by either party it has been a disaster.

When one of the parties screws up - you go out and vote for the opposition.

The real point of this is that the D voters need to hold their politicians accountable and not just point out that the other party sucks.

And the R voters need to do the same.

Having dumb and dumber as our two party system isn't a good thing.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1762 » by Pointgod » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:37 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Al Jazeera, BBC, NPR. Come on people, it's only rocket science.

Rachel Maddow is the only reporter on MSNBC I can tolerate. She's biased in the topics she chooses to cover but is otherwise pretty straightforward in how she reports things. She always tries to get people who understand topics better than her to come in and answer questions, which I find really useful. Sometimes people straighten her out and she embraces it. She's genuinely interested in the truth. And she makes really hilarious expressions when she encounters something truly bizaare.


I really don't get the MSNBC hate. It screams of bothsidesism to me. MSNBC does a good job laying down facts and most importantly getting knowledgeable people on their panels. Unlike CNN they have knowledgeable Republicans on their panels, not just right wing hacks like Rick Santorum. MSNBC may have a left leaning bias only because these days facts and reality have a left leaning bias. I don't think their coverage of an issue is that widely different from NPR.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1763 » by dckingsfan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:39 pm

gtn130 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Meanwhile dckingsfan is looking over his notes on his personal definition of ‘Deep State’ and nodding vigorously at how much utility the phrase provides to both sides of aisle

You don't like my definition? It doesn't fit into your notion of the Ds as infallible? That they aren't equally (or more so) of perpetuating really stupid programs that have bankrupted state an local governments? :nonono:

And you don't read? I already agreed with Zonk that this notion of the deep state chasing Trump is nonsense. The deep state is much worse than that... it is insidious and unfocused.

Dude this whole thing spawned from you running to the defense of Nate in the name of centrism. Every argument from your vantage point starts with "both sides are bad and the center is good" and you work backwards from there.

'Deep State' is colloquially used by Alt-Right derpers who want to delegitimize institutions that act as checks on Trump. You would rather talk about sustainable government and how bad Democrats are at governing. It's really not relevant here even if you have a bizarre etymological justification for however you're choosing to interpret this phrase.

No - my point is both parties are corrupt (dumb and dumber if you will) and we need a third party.

And yes, the Alt-Righters have coopted the term Deep State (for the time being). It was also used by Ds to describe the industrial military complex in the 60s (damn that is a long time for the phrase to have been around. And has been used to describe many parts of government (as bizarre as they may seem to you). Zonk's definition was the best that I have seen recently.

And to your point, neither the Ds or Rs have been good at governing - neither. Neither have created a sustainable government model on the local, state or federal level. Sorry it doesn't fit your lens.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1764 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:58 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Al Jazeera, BBC, NPR. Come on people, it's only rocket science.

Rachel Maddow is the only reporter on MSNBC I can tolerate. She's biased in the topics she chooses to cover but is otherwise pretty straightforward in how she reports things. She always tries to get people who understand topics better than her to come in and answer questions, which I find really useful. Sometimes people straighten her out and she embraces it. She's genuinely interested in the truth. And she makes really hilarious expressions when she encounters something truly bizaare.


I really don't get the MSNBC hate. It screams of bothsidesism to me. MSNBC does a good job laying down facts and most importantly getting knowledgeable people on their panels. Unlike CNN they have knowledgeable Republicans on their panels, not just right wing hacks like Rick Santorum. MSNBC may have a left leaning bias only because these days facts and reality have a left leaning bias. I don't think their coverage of an issue is that widely different from NPR.


I've been listening to it in my car on Sirius radio. It's no NPR - it's biased. More relevant than what NPR chooses to report, but honestly I don't want to hear trash talk on the news. Just report the facts please, I can decide for myself whether to be outraged.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1765 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:11 pm

dckingsfan wrote:So, Presidents don't create the budgets. That is the legislatures purview. And on a federal level both parties are equally complicit in bankrupting the country. But Ds point at Rs and Rs at Ds.

The proof that they are both complicit is at the state level where states controlled by both parties have bankrupted their state an local governments.

And when we have had the federal government controlled by either party it has been a disaster.

When one of the parties screws up - you go out and vote for the opposition.

The real point of this is that the D voters need to hold their politicians accountable and not just point out that the other party sucks.

And the R voters need to do the same.

Having dumb and dumber as our two party system isn't a good thing.


I'm not exonerating anything. I'm just suggesting that D presidents have been notably less catastrophic fiscally-speaking than R ones have over the past few decades, unless you're literally only willing to look at the program side of the equation and ignore everything else, which would be foolish. That doesn't mean that D presidents have even been good, but reality is that R presidents have been outright awful fiscally and Trump is no different. If you're aiming for the better choice, presidentially speaking, neither choice is particularly wondrous or anything, but the choice is still clear. On state and local levels, the choice isn't nearly so clear, as you've been very apt to point out. Heck, even on house and senate elections, I don't feel the choice is particularly clear and varies pretty wildly from one place to the next.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1766 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:13 pm

States have to have balanced budgets so to accuse state and local govts of bankrupting the country is inaccurate. Large state budgets are apples and large Federal budget is an orange. A big, rotting maggot filled carcass of an orange.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1767 » by dckingsfan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:18 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:So, Presidents don't create the budgets. That is the legislatures purview. And on a federal level both parties are equally complicit in bankrupting the country. But Ds point at Rs and Rs at Ds.

The proof that they are both complicit is at the state level where states controlled by both parties have bankrupted their state an local governments.

And when we have had the federal government controlled by either party it has been a disaster.

When one of the parties screws up - you go out and vote for the opposition.

The real point of this is that the D voters need to hold their politicians accountable and not just point out that the other party sucks.

And the R voters need to do the same.

Having dumb and dumber as our two party system isn't a good thing.

I'm not exonerating anything. I'm just suggesting that D presidents have been notably less catastrophic fiscally-speaking than R ones have over the past few decades, unless you're literally only willing to look at the program side of the equation and ignore everything else, which would be foolish. That doesn't mean that D presidents have even been good, but reality is that R presidents have been outright awful fiscally and Trump is no different. If you're aiming for the better choice, presidentially speaking, neither choice is particularly wondrous or anything, but the choice is still clear. On state and local levels, the choice isn't nearly so clear, as you've been very apt to point out. Heck, even on house and senate elections, I don't feel the choice is particularly clear and varies pretty wildly from one place to the next.

Okay, makes sense. Most disastrous has been R presidents and democratic legislature (until this unmitigated disaster R&R) - they trade defense spending and tax cuts for social spending. Next worse is D president and D legislature - new programs with good intensions that come out badly. D presidents and R in congress have been the best (not good but better than the rest).
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1768 » by dckingsfan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:23 pm

Can't remember who was talking about the suicide epidemic. Brooks touching on one part of the elephant. I think he partly misses the mark not talking about returning veterans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/opinion/facebook-social-wealth.html
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1769 » by dckingsfan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:24 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:States have to have balanced budgets so to accuse state and local govts of bankrupting the country is inaccurate. Large state budgets are apples and large Federal budget is an orange. A big, rotting maggot filled carcass of an orange.

Yes, and that is why they play games with unfunded pensions. So, rotting apples to go along with rotting oranges :) - yuck
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1770 » by Pointgod » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:29 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Al Jazeera, BBC, NPR. Come on people, it's only rocket science.

Rachel Maddow is the only reporter on MSNBC I can tolerate. She's biased in the topics she chooses to cover but is otherwise pretty straightforward in how she reports things. She always tries to get people who understand topics better than her to come in and answer questions, which I find really useful. Sometimes people straighten her out and she embraces it. She's genuinely interested in the truth. And she makes really hilarious expressions when she encounters something truly bizaare.


I really don't get the MSNBC hate. It screams of bothsidesism to me. MSNBC does a good job laying down facts and most importantly getting knowledgeable people on their panels. Unlike CNN they have knowledgeable Republicans on their panels, not just right wing hacks like Rick Santorum. MSNBC may have a left leaning bias only because these days facts and reality have a left leaning bias. I don't think their coverage of an issue is that widely different from NPR.


I've been listening to it in my car on Sirius radio. It's no NPR - it's biased. More relevant than what NPR chooses to report, but honestly I don't want to hear trash talk on the news. Just report the facts please, I can decide for myself whether to be outraged.


So you have a problem with the way that they report the news not the content?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1771 » by JWizmentality » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:36 pm

:lol: :lol:

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1772 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:39 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
I really don't get the MSNBC hate. It screams of bothsidesism to me. MSNBC does a good job laying down facts and most importantly getting knowledgeable people on their panels. Unlike CNN they have knowledgeable Republicans on their panels, not just right wing hacks like Rick Santorum. MSNBC may have a left leaning bias only because these days facts and reality have a left leaning bias. I don't think their coverage of an issue is that widely different from NPR.


I've been listening to it in my car on Sirius radio. It's no NPR - it's biased. More relevant than what NPR chooses to report, but honestly I don't want to hear trash talk on the news. Just report the facts please, I can decide for myself whether to be outraged.


So you have a problem with the way that they report the news not the content?


Yeah it's one thing to have a left-leaning bias because facts and reality have a left-leaning bias nowadays, and another thing entirely to make snide comments about Trump. It's unprofessional and turns me off. Although I will say I can choose to listen to CNN, which is lowest-common-denominator crap (although the twitter feeds of the various cnn-employed reporters are pretty good), and NPR, I hate to say, bores me to tears. MSNBC reports on stuff I'm interested in and it's content is more or less on point, yes. But the snark annoys me.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1773 » by Pointgod » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:49 pm

This is why you don't give any credence to the derp state conspiracy theories from the right.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/16/sean-hannity-outed-michael-cohens-client-deep-state/

Every single night on Sean Hannity’s program there’s some kind of talk about the deep state in one form or another. It’s used as a sort of bludgeon to discredit any federal investigation into the goings on of Trump’s campaign and his associates. It was almost a natural fit that the deep state conspiracy theories that he s putting forward eventually got applied to his own case. I guess it’s not incredibly surprising, but it truly came full circle.


The “deep state” conspiracy theory posits that the hand of a “shadow government” controls all, and that it is mounting a campaign to oust President Trump and undo his supporters; it is often promoted by Trump himself. (There is no clear reason given that an authoritarian, murderous “shadow government” would allow a select few to continue talking about its existence on public airwaves that potentially reach millions of viewers or listeners, but no one ever seems to ask.)


According to whistleblower Christopher Wylie, the phrase “deep state” was tested by scandal-plagued psychographics firm Cambridge Analytica on Facebook users to gauge their reaction without their knowledge or consent.

Many of the personalities latching on to this most recent claim also went to the mat for other outlandish ideas, including the inexplicably prominent PizzaGate yarn that held Trump’s 2016 rival Hillary Clinton was involved in a pedophile ring run out of the basement a Washington, D.C. pizzeria (the restaurant has no basement).


Yeah no serious person would actually give even an ounce of validity to the whole deep state conspiracy or the idea that some shadowy puppet masters control the government.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1774 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:52 pm

dckingsfan wrote:D presidents and R in congress have been the best (not good but better than the rest).


I actually agree. Hasn't been anywhere closer to perfect, but a Democratic president with a check on the pressure he receives to cave to his party's demands is likely the best of the options out there. I don't really love the alternatives and other aspects of the Rs in the house or senate, but what their ideas are matters less with a D president because what is important is that they allow a D president to govern away from concensus D politics.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1775 » by dckingsfan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:07 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:D presidents and R in congress have been the best (not good but better than the rest).

I actually agree. Hasn't been anywhere closer to perfect, but a Democratic president with a check on the pressure he receives to cave to his party's demands is likely the best of the options out there. I don't really love the alternatives and other aspects of the Rs in the house or senate, but what their ideas are matters less with a D president because what is important is that they allow a D president to govern away from concensus D politics.

Agreed, and my preference would be the Rs would only control one of the houses.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1776 » by gtn130 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:15 pm

I don't watch CNN and MSNBC because it's mostly infotainment faux debate style analysis between partisans. That said, I wouldn't watch cable news even if it were good because it's just a massively inefficient way of consuming news content.

But there are huge differences between the mediocre infotainment wing of cable news and Fox News, which are:

-Fox News peddles conspiracy theories like #PizzaGate that they themselves know are fake
-Fox News is deeply entangled with the White House and is functionally the White House PR machine

You can't compare Fox News to any other network (maybe RT notwithstanding?) for those reasons.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1777 » by Wizardspride » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:22 pm

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President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1778 » by gtn130 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:28 pm

dckingsfan wrote:No - my point is both parties are corrupt (dumb and dumber if you will) and we need a third party.


Ok? It's not relevant to how Nate used the term. He used it to delegitimize American law enforcement institutions because they're not being nice to Daddy Trump.

dckingsfan wrote:It was also used by Ds to describe the industrial military complex in the 60s (damn that is a long time for the phrase to have been around. And has been used to describe many parts of government (as bizarre as they may seem to you). Zonk's definition was the best that I have seen recently.


Cool history lesson. How is it relevant to what Nate was saying?

dckingsfan wrote:And to your point, neither the Ds or Rs have been good at governing - neither. Neither have created a sustainable government model on the local, state or federal level. Sorry it doesn't fit your lens.


It doesn't 'fit my lens' because it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I was talking about. What you really want to talk about is the Dems being bad at stuff even when it's not related to the topic at hand.

Again, this all started because you cannot help but run to the defense of an Alt-Right Trump acolyte because it makes you feel like you're smarter than all these unserious partisans. What results, though, is that you just wind up defending a dyed in the wool deplorable's deplorable while also derailing the conversation. Good stuff!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1779 » by stilldropin20 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:28 pm

this seems to be picking up steam. african americans lives are improving under trump. 2020 will be interesting.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIX 

Post#1780 » by Wizardspride » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:38 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=20


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President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.

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