The Board Man Cometh!! Kawhi Leonard Signs 3 Year (2+1), $103 Million Deal

[esqtvd]

I could see him taking an extension if hes going somewhere he wants to be. Either way, we have a pretty big advantage via his bird rights on a max deal.

What is the advantage of Kawhi's Bird rights? He has already banked $61 million as an NBAer at age 26. I don't know what he wants. I can't relate!

Greg Popovich is the greatest coach in the history of the world but he can't even get Kawhi on the phone. I'm so WTF I'm like, WTF.

And yes, I would absolutely take that risk. The chance to acquire a top 5 player doesn't come around more than once in a decade, if not more. If hes available and we land him, he completely reshapes the outlook of the franchise.

If he stays.

Thx for the great dialogue, AZ Jeff. BTW did you see my comment on the other thread where I admitted you were right about Fultz [even though he still can't shoot]?

[esqtvd]

Who cares that they traded a player? You try to insult their last 10 drafts by leaving Kawhi out on a technicality...they had the foresight and valued the draft and their ability to develop more than you do. Since this scenario is the ultimate one that proves you wrong, you pretend them trading Hill (having foresight and valuing the draft) means it doesn’t count and will scream about how lucky they were instead of just giving them credit.

No one cares they didnt think he’d be that good. They drafted, developed, and conquered. That’s the name of the game. That’s why you use the draft. If only the NBA were as easy as trading for proven talent. We’d all be millionaires in a skybox.
_______________
And no. We value the draft, not the the Spurs drafting acumen or them being a gold standard. It’s your convenient way of ducking the teams that actually have drafted well in recent years and a straw man.

Even if your argument were valid [Kawhi could well not have been available--and shouldn't have been], they did not expect him to be this good and the rest of the Spurs' drafts in the past 10 years have amounted to little.

Those are the facts. You have no counterargument. You are cherry-picking one lucky strike out of 10 years of dry wells, and even that was only possible because they had an extra PG laying around to trade for a dice roll.

None of which has much to do with the real subject, which is about many draft picks [and in what position] is Kawhi Leonard worth. Obviously they are worth something or this discussion would not be taking place.

You know you have no argument when you discuss couldn’t haves and shouldn’t haves, particularly in scenarios like the draft.

Cherry picking? You literally began the cherry picking by conveniently leaving him out of their 10 year draft history knowing he was acquired on draft night and they’ve always had control of his entire NBA career. If they were so lucky to get him, you’d actually throw him in to the list because you know it wouldnt hurt your argument.

Further, none of this negates the overall point. The Spurs value and acquire cheap young talent. You just like listing the draft because it absolves you from having to deal with the Spurs acquiring Danny Green, Jonathan Simmons, and Patty Mills within the last 10 years.

I know this has nothing to do with the main point. You brought up the Spurs drafting acumen for the 1,000th time because you cant help but think that knocking the Spurs drafting acumen down means you’ve knocked down the importance of thd draft. I just have no problem telling you that you are wrong and you present crappy, logically flawed arguments disingenuously.
_________

To the real point (that YOU got away from)...The person who says the draft is the life blood of organization, has scored an all time player at the 13 slot IS going to shy away from dumping TWO lottery picks away for a rental because he values the draft much more than a guy like you. When he says trading for proven commodities is the lifeblood of an organization, give me a call. At least then you’ll have a leg to stand on.

The draft is an invaluable tool. The young talent on cheap contracts can’t be understated in the slightest and almost no organization in North American sports has won a ring without it. There are far more who have built through the draft and won than those who have dealt or signed proven commodities. If we are the organization turning Ty Wallace and Sin into something, we aren’t going to do something as stupid as value our lottery picks based on a list of what has happened at those slots.

You’re right. The NBA can be summed up with 5 names. Kobe. Duncan. Bron. Steph. Wade. (no Dirk??). None of which were acquired in the way you think we’d acquire Kawhi (by trading 2 1st rounders)...but one acquired at our beautiful 13 slot.

The draft wins.

Oh, you cheated the argument, you evil boy. Kobe's #13 draft slot was acquired for Vlade Divac. On DRAFT NIGHT. Divac was not traded for the #13 pick in advance, he was traded at the last tick of the clock for Kobe Bryant, who was still on the board.

You are not listening. The Spurs traded Paul George at the last tick of the draft clock not for the #15 pick, but for Kawhi Leonard, who was still on the board.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kobe-bryant-and-the-draft-day-trade-that-changed-nba-history/


Of course "the draft wins."


I really don't want to keep fighting with you and your pals. I don't even know what you're fighting about.

The draft is an invaluable tool.

Yes it is. Nobody is saying it isn't.

[QRich3]

I would absolutely trade 12, 13, and Gallo for Kawhi. 12, 13, and Tobias doesnt really make sense from our perspective.

Don't you think Gallo has negative trade value? I'd think with 2 years and $44M left on his contract, it'd cost a pick to get rid of him.

Personally, I dont think he has negative value, but hes a risk to acquire. I view it this way...

Look back at Paul George, Demarcus Cousins, and Jimmy Butler. They are the last three star talents to be traded with a year remaining on their contract (where Kawhi is on draft night). Here is each of the three packages.

Demarcus Cousins
Ompri Casspi

for

Buddy Hield
Tyreke Evans
Langston Galloway
1st and 2nd

Jimmy Butler
#16 (Justin Patton)

for

Zach LaVine
Kris Dunn
#7 (Lauri Markkanen)

Paul George

for

Victor Oladipo
Domantas Sabonis

I think a package built around Gallo, #12 and #13 is right in the ballpark. We might need to supplement a few smaller pieces, or take back a contract like Patty Mills and include Wes Johnson to align salaries. Although Mills is overpaid, he would provide some additional shooting off the bench to help space the floor, and would make sense if Milos opts out. That also might be the opportunity for us to ask for the Spurs 18th pick.

Point being, I think Gallo, 12 and 13 is close enough to build a package around. For those who are thinking, "lets just wait and sign him next summer." Thats not how you operate when a star is on the market. Prime example being the Lakers.

I think I'd rather trade one of the picks and Tobias than both picks and getting rid of Gallo. Gallo will improve his value as soon as he's healthy for a while, trading him at his worst just lowers the value of our best possible package/future assets. I also think Tobias will come back to earth a bit, but that's more personal feeling than anything.

I fully agree that you don't wait until free agency if you have a chance to trade for him, that's a sure way to watch him re-sign for a team he had less interest in.

But whichever the best package we can put on the table, I'm fairly sure 3 or 4 teams will beat it. So unless Kawhi has his mind set on coming here -and I don't see why he would be- don't think we have much of a chance really. Even if we can offer a bunch of very nice assets, we don't have that one blue chip that other teams can offer, and I'm sure the Spurs would rather have that than a bunch of nice things.

[madmaxmedia]

If the basic package was Tobias and a 1st for a healthy Kawhi, that would be a major win too. There is the question of what happens to Tobias after his contract ends next year. Putting together a legit NBA contender has become really tough, you need a lucky confluence of different moving parts (big part of that being contracts) coming together.

I agree that most likely we won't be the team that trades for him, and I'll be fine with looking forward to our picks the draft. OTOH, the Blake trade took most all of us by complete surprise.

[TucsonClip]

What is the advantage of Kawhi's Bird rights? He has already banked $61 million as an NBAer at age 26. I don't know what he wants. I can't relate!

Well, the difference comes via the raises allowed (8% instead of 5%), because I believe everyone can sign him on a DPE (All-NBA last year and the year before; need 2 out of three years or the year prior), although im a bit hazy on that. My CBA skills are getting a bit rusty. However, we could offer him an extension this summer. This would run five years, and would pay him $220 mil based off the $108 mil cap number for '19-'20. So by trading for him this summer, we can lock him in a year early, much like Westbrook agreed to last summer.

Thx for the great dialogue, AZ Jeff. BTW did you see my comment on the other thread where I admitted you were right about Fultz [even though he still can't shoot]?

I missed that, but I will definitely give it a look. As you know, I loved Fultz. Glad to see him get healthy and shut up people like Colin Cowherd! his jumper will be fine. He will have all summer to keep rehabbing that shoulder and get his form back.

[TucsonClip]

I think I'd rather trade one of the picks and Tobias than both picks and getting rid of Gallo. Gallo will improve his value as soon as he's healthy for a while, trading him at his worst just lowers the value of our best possible package/future assets. I also think Tobias will come back to earth a bit, but that's more personal feeling than anything.

I fully agree that you don't wait until free agency if you have a chance to trade for him, that's a sure way to watch him re-sign for a team he had less interest in.

But whichever the best package we can put on the table, I'm fairly sure 3 or 4 teams will beat it. So unless Kawhi has his mind set on coming here -and I don't see why he would be- don't think we have much of a chance really. Even if we can offer a bunch of very nice assets, we don't have that one blue chip that other teams can offer, and I'm sure the Spurs would rather have that than a bunch of nice things.

Yeah, thats kind of where I was going by not saying Tobias is untouchable. However, Tobias makes much more sense next to Kawhi than Gallo, IMO. Plus, he is young enough to be part of the core moving forward. While I liked the move for Gallo, Tobias is the better player and fit for our system with Kawhi on board.

I am positive there will be plenty of interesting packages offered to the Spurs. However, I think we are right in the mix, be it via trade or free agency. I think we make sense from a trade point of view, because I believe Kawhi would sign an extension with us this summer.

[MartinToVaught]

I still maintain that giving up both picks is too much in any scenario.

Kawhi has basically missed the whole season with an injury, and due to his continued silence on the matter and his decision not to attend the Spurs' playoff games, it's becoming a legitimate question of whether or not he's quitting on his team. If he's willing to quit on Pop, then how can he be trusted to play hard for Doc? Furthermore, how can Doc be trusted to keep Kawhi committed to the team? This is the same guy who last year, according to Arnovitz, declared our players "soft" and gave up on them because he had failed to convince them to buy in. And we're supposed to believe he can work with Kawhi when Pop couldn't?

Even if we give Kawhi the full benefit of the doubt on this, there's still other worrisome factors. Our medical staff is not the greatest, to put it mildly. It's a very real possibility that Kawhi's career could follow down the same path as Blake's here. And the Spurs are a much smarter, savvier organization than the Clippers. You just know that they'll draft at least one star with our picks and we'll be looking up at them in the standings like always. Don't bother showing me the list of the players they've drafted recently, BTW. I've been a Clipper fan long enough to know that there's an 100% chance they'll draft this year's Donovan Mitchell and another solid player with those picks if we trade both of them.

Worst case scenario is that we pay Kawhi the supermax to warm the bench in a suit while the Spurs win championships without him. And because we're the Clippers, would anyone be surprised if we trade all our assets for him and that turns out to be the result?

DJ, the Pistons' pick and salary filler is all I'd be comfortable giving up for him at the moment. If that's not enough for the Spurs, then let some other team take the risk. We're rebuilding anyway, it's not like we're going to be a title contender next year even with a healthy Kawhi.

[TucsonClip]

No chance the Spurs are going to trot out DJ and Aldridge, let alone pay them both. Not to mention they still owe Gasol $16.8 mil.

[MartinToVaught]

No chance the Spurs are going to trot out DJ and Aldridge, let alone pay them both. Not to mention they still owe Gasol $16.8 mil.

Then they can try to get a better package from another team or fix their relationship with Kawhi.

I think Kawhi's value right now is a lot lower than you seem to think it is. Judging from the comments he's made about Kawhi recently, Pop seems to be done with him. And Pop's voice carries a lot of weight in this league, so if he's done with a player, why would any other team want to trade very much for that player? Especially when the player in question has missed almost an entire season with an injury? DJ and a lottery pick might be the best return they can get.

[TucsonClip]

Then they can try to get a better package from another team or fix their relationship with Kawhi.

I think Kawhi's value right now is a lot lower than you seem to think it is. Judging from the comments he's made about Kawhi recently, Pop seems to be done with him. And Pop's voice carries a lot of weight in this league, so if he's done with a player, why would any other team want to trade very much for that player? Especially when the player in question has missed almost an entire season with an injury? DJ and a lottery pick might be the best return they can get.

The entire league is salivating at the thought of the Spurs making him available before he hits free agency next summer. Agree to disagree.

[MartinToVaught]

Then they can try to get a better package from another team or fix their relationship with Kawhi.

I think Kawhi's value right now is a lot lower than you seem to think it is. Judging from the comments he's made about Kawhi recently, Pop seems to be done with him. And Pop's voice carries a lot of weight in this league, so if he's done with a player, why would any other team want to trade very much for that player? Especially when the player in question has missed almost an entire season with an injury? DJ and a lottery pick might be the best return they can get.

The entire league is salivating at the thought of the Spurs making him available before he hits free agency next summer. Agree to disagree.

Maybe so, but they're also scared of getting fleeced by the Spurs in exchange for Orlando Grant Hill 2.0.

[Quake Griffin]

Even if your argument were valid [Kawhi could well not have been available--and shouldn't have been], they did not expect him to be this good and the rest of the Spurs' drafts in the past 10 years have amounted to little.

Those are the facts. You have no counterargument. You are cherry-picking one lucky strike out of 10 years of dry wells, and even that was only possible because they had an extra PG laying around to trade for a dice roll.

None of which has much to do with the real subject, which is about many draft picks [and in what position] is Kawhi Leonard worth. Obviously they are worth something or this discussion would not be taking place.

You know you have no argument when you discuss couldn’t haves and shouldn’t haves, particularly in scenarios like the draft.

Cherry picking? You literally began the cherry picking by conveniently leaving him out of their 10 year draft history knowing he was acquired on draft night and they’ve always had control of his entire NBA career. If they were so lucky to get him, you’d actually throw him in to the list because you know it wouldnt hurt your argument.

Further, none of this negates the overall point. The Spurs value and acquire cheap young talent. You just like listing the draft because it absolves you from having to deal with the Spurs acquiring Danny Green, Jonathan Simmons, and Patty Mills within the last 10 years.

I know this has nothing to do with the main point. You brought up the Spurs drafting acumen for the 1,000th time because you cant help but think that knocking the Spurs drafting acumen down means you’ve knocked down the importance of thd draft. I just have no problem telling you that you are wrong and you present crappy, logically flawed arguments disingenuously.
_________

To the real point (that YOU got away from)...The person who says the draft is the life blood of organization, has scored an all time player at the 13 slot IS going to shy away from dumping TWO lottery picks away for a rental because he values the draft much more than a guy like you. When he says trading for proven commodities is the lifeblood of an organization, give me a call. At least then you’ll have a leg to stand on.

The draft is an invaluable tool. The young talent on cheap contracts can’t be understated in the slightest and almost no organization in North American sports has won a ring without it. There are far more who have built through the draft and won than those who have dealt or signed proven commodities. If we are the organization turning Ty Wallace and Sin into something, we aren’t going to do something as stupid as value our lottery picks based on a list of what has happened at those slots.

You’re right. The NBA can be summed up with 5 names. Kobe. Duncan. Bron. Steph. Wade. (no Dirk??). None of which were acquired in the way you think we’d acquire Kawhi (by trading 2 1st rounders)...but one acquired at our beautiful 13 slot.

The draft wins.

Oh, you cheated the argument, you evil boy. Kobe's #13 draft slot was acquired for Vlade Divac. On DRAFT NIGHT. Divac was not traded for the #13 pick in advance, he was traded at the last tick of the clock for Kobe Bryant, who was still on the board.

You are not listening. The Spurs traded Paul George at the last tick of the draft clock not for the #15 pick, but for Kawhi Leonard, who was still on the board.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kobe-bryant-and-the-draft-day-trade-that-changed-nba-history/


Of course "the draft wins."


I really don't want to keep fighting with you and your pals. I don't even know what you're fighting about.

The draft is an invaluable tool.

Yes it is. Nobody is saying it isn't.

Strong edit job after original post. Pretty sneaky.

No. You aren’t listening.
You cannot poo poo the draft via a list. Then say it’s different when you trade for a specific player while on the clock (which you originally said to pretend the Spurs didnt do an excellent job finding Kawhi). Then say oh wait, the Spurs didn’t know how good he’d be either. Your argument walks all over itself and you’re just drawing a distinction to be argumentative while holding onto your anti-draft agenda.

The ONLY way to view and value the draft is via our scouting and our draft board. Not your list of what’s happened at 12-13.

Then stop “fighting”. It’s a forum. Either go all the way with your point of view or don’t. I don’t care.

Oh and youve called me silly in a noun form and an evil boy. You getting personal?


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[esqtvd]

You know you have no argument when you discuss couldn’t haves and shouldn’t haves, particularly in scenarios like the draft.

Cherry picking? You literally began the cherry picking by conveniently leaving him out of their 10 year draft history knowing he was acquired on draft night and they’ve always had control of his entire NBA career. If they were so lucky to get him, you’d actually throw him in to the list because you know it wouldnt hurt your argument.

Further, none of this negates the overall point. The Spurs value and acquire cheap young talent. You just like listing the draft because it absolves you from having to deal with the Spurs acquiring Danny Green, Jonathan Simmons, and Patty Mills within the last 10 years.

I know this has nothing to do with the main point. You brought up the Spurs drafting acumen for the 1,000th time because you cant help but think that knocking the Spurs drafting acumen down means you’ve knocked down the importance of thd draft. I just have no problem telling you that you are wrong and you present crappy, logically flawed arguments disingenuously.
_________

To the real point (that YOU got away from)...The person who says the draft is the life blood of organization, has scored an all time player at the 13 slot IS going to shy away from dumping TWO lottery picks away for a rental because he values the draft much more than a guy like you. When he says trading for proven commodities is the lifeblood of an organization, give me a call. At least then you’ll have a leg to stand on.

The draft is an invaluable tool. The young talent on cheap contracts can’t be understated in the slightest and almost no organization in North American sports has won a ring without it. There are far more who have built through the draft and won than those who have dealt or signed proven commodities. If we are the organization turning Ty Wallace and Sin into something, we aren’t going to do something as stupid as value our lottery picks based on a list of what has happened at those slots.

You’re right. The NBA can be summed up with 5 names. Kobe. Duncan. Bron. Steph. Wade. (no Dirk??). None of which were acquired in the way you think we’d acquire Kawhi (by trading 2 1st rounders)...but one acquired at our beautiful 13 slot.

The draft wins.

Oh, you cheated the argument, you evil boy. Kobe's #13 draft slot was acquired for Vlade Divac. On DRAFT NIGHT. Divac was not traded for the #13 pick in advance, he was traded at the last tick of the clock for Kobe Bryant, who was still on the board.

You are not listening. The Spurs traded Paul George at the last tick of the draft clock not for the #15 pick, but for Kawhi Leonard, who was still on the board.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kobe-bryant-and-the-draft-day-trade-that-changed-nba-history/


Of course "the draft wins."


I really don't want to keep fighting with you and your pals. I don't even know what you're fighting about.

The draft is an invaluable tool.

Yes it is. Nobody is saying it isn't.

Strong edit job after original post. Pretty sneaky.

No. You aren’t listening.
You cannot poo poo the draft via a list. Then say it’s different when you trade for a specific player while on the clock (which you originally said to pretend the Spurs didnt do an excellent job finding Kawhi). Then say oh wait, the Spurs didn’t know how good he’d be either. Your argument walks all over itself and you’re just drawing a distinction to be argumentative while holding onto your anti-draft agenda.

The ONLY way to view and value the draft is via our scouting and our draft board. Not your list of what’s happened at 12-13.

Then stop “fighting”. It’s a forum. Either go all the way with your point of view or don’t. I don’t care.

Oh and youve called me silly in a noun form and an evil boy. You getting personal?

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Bored. I don't know what you want from me. How can you pooh-pooh the draft? Everybody was drafted!

The ONLY way to view and value the draft is via our scouting and our draft board. Not your list of what’s happened at 12-13.

I have no idea what this means. Have you ever shot craps? If your point is 6 or 8, your odds ain't bad. If your point is 4 or 10, they're pretty lousy. Same is true of draft order. The history of the top 7 or so is pretty good. Most Hall of Famers fell in there. The history of 12-13 is kind of meh. This is not because of lack of drafting acumen, but because all the good ones were already taken.

Geez.

[MartinToVaught]

Back on topic - here's a good summary of Kawhi's injury:

The injury Kawhi has is one of the trickiest injuries to treat in sports medicine. Kawhi has degenerative tendinopathy of the quadriceps tendon (also known as quadriceps tendinosis) - a chronic condition that leads to gradual weakening of the tendon.

In this case, the tendon in question is the quadriceps tendon that connects the quadriceps muscle to the kneecap. Even if the pain from the tendinosis is being managed, the main problem associated with this tendinopathy is the tendon being compromised. Continued use of the tendon makes you highly susceptible to partial or complete tendon ruptures - injuries that can significantly shorten an NBA career.

Degenerative tendinopathy can sometimes be initially misdiagnosed as reactive tendinopathy (also known as tendinitis), but misdiagnosis of this type of injury is relatively uncommon. The big problem is that the symptoms can vary day to day - one day you can feel good and have minimal pain during therapy while the next day everything is tight and there is an acute risk of tendon rupture.

If you mismanage degenerative tendinopathy in an NBA athlete, especially quadriceps tendinosis, you can have very bad things happen. An example of this is Blake Griffin. The quad injury that kept Blake sidelined the majority of the 2015-2016 season and playoffs was degenerative tendinopathy of the quadriceps that was mismanaged and led to a partial rupture of the quadriceps tendon. Even with rehabbing this injury, Blake has lost some of his explosiveness and is still at very high risk to re-injure that tendon.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8cnbqn/the_kawhi_situation_for_dummies/dxgtboj/

This just solidifies my belief that we should not trade multiple lottery picks and a player of Tobias' caliber for Kawhi right now. This sounds like Kawhi will never be the same player he once was. If the Spurs are willing to accept a reasonable package, then fine, but trading all our best assets isn't worth it.

[Ranma]

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[Quake Griffin]

Bored indeed. You have nothing left to offer from your tangent.

Enjoy.
____________________

On Kawhi’s injury and on topic....

I don’t get how anybody can read that about his injury and believe the Spurs are in any position to demand two lottery picks fron anybody, especially with what we saw from our own Blake Griffin.

They’d be lucky to actually get a lottery pick at all in this scenario. Kawhi could be damaged goods.


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[esqtvd]

Bored indeed. You have nothing left to offer from your tangent.

Enjoy.
____________________

On Kawhi’s injury and on topic....

I don’t get how anybody can read that about his injury and believe the Spurs are in any position to demand two lottery picks fron anybody, especially with what we saw from our own Blake Griffin.

They’d be lucky to actually get a lottery pick at all in this scenario. Kawhi could be damaged goods.

You & your pals should perhaps just talk with each other.

Let's see what the market is for Kawhi. Leave me out of it. If the Clippers are indeed preparing a trade offer, you are on the wrong side of Jerry West. We don't expect you people to treat me or any of us better than Jerry West.

[Quake Griffin]

How about I don’t and you pretend I did? Works for me.

Imagine starting this thread and having someone suggest you are on the wrong side of anyone preparing a trade offer.

Derp.




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[esqtvd]

How about I don’t and you pretend I did? Works for me.

Imagine starting this thread and having someone suggest you are on the wrong side of anyone preparing a trade offer.

Derp.

Let's forget your issues for the moment. Let's try to get you back on topic. What is your trade offer? If any.

Go on record, let's see how it stacks up with reality.

[Quake Griffin]

Steering this thread back on topic. This is the last post that was on topic. It is in reference to MTV’s post on Kawhi’s injury.

On Kawhi’s injury and on topic....

I don’t get how anybody can read that about his injury and believe the Spurs are in any position to demand two lottery picks fron anybody, especially with what we saw from our own Blake Griffin.

They’d be lucky to actually get a lottery pick at all in this scenario. Kawhi could be damaged goods.


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Again,

Given what has been written about his injury and what we have experienced with Blake Griffin (watching his athleticism get zapped from him), I just dont understand giving the Spurs all of the leverage in any deal just because he is a star player.

Injury.
Rocky relationship.
Rental.

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