'17-'18 POY discussion

[ardee]

I may be getting caught up in the moment, but I’m thinking Davis vs peak KG is a legit discussion at this point. He’s not the defender that KG was...but offensively, he’s almost impossible to stop from getting his, and it’s almost all off ball, from cuts, PnR, PnP, and offensive rebounds. Not the passer that Garnett was...but does that offset the fact that Davis just seems much better as a scorer, without being ball-dominant whatsoever?

Not to mention that although he’s not KG defensively, he’s still one of the best defenders in the league imo.

I'm guessing you have peak KG as a top 10 peak of all time... so you'd have Davis in there too?

[therealbig3]

I may be getting caught up in the moment, but I’m thinking Davis vs peak KG is a legit discussion at this point. He’s not the defender that KG was...but offensively, he’s almost impossible to stop from getting his, and it’s almost all off ball, from cuts, PnR, PnP, and offensive rebounds. Not the passer that Garnett was...but does that offset the fact that Davis just seems much better as a scorer, without being ball-dominant whatsoever?

Not to mention that although he’s not KG defensively, he’s still one of the best defenders in the league imo.

I'm guessing you have peak KG as a top 10 peak of all time... so you'd have Davis in there too?

Yeah possibly...although because of the passing and defense, I’d probably still take KG, but Davis keeps impressing me more and more.

[eminence]

Think after a few more first round series finish up I'm going to start a "In the Clubhouse top 5". For now Jokic/Kemba/Lillard would be the only guys worthy of any sort of mention.

[dhsilv2]

I may be getting caught up in the moment, but I’m thinking Davis vs peak KG is a legit discussion at this point. He’s not the defender that KG was...but offensively, he’s almost impossible to stop from getting his, and it’s almost all off ball, from cuts, PnR, PnP, and offensive rebounds. Not the passer that Garnett was...but does that offset the fact that Davis just seems much better as a scorer, without being ball-dominant whatsoever?

Not to mention that although he’s not KG defensively, he’s still one of the best defenders in the league imo.

Hard to judge when he's in a favorable playoff match up and this is always the biggest issue with playoff hype. This just isn't a series imo it's fair to judge him.

He isn't remotely close defensively though. He's got a long way to go there.

[Joey Wheeler]

I may be getting caught up in the moment, but I’m thinking Davis vs peak KG is a legit discussion at this point. He’s not the defender that KG was...but offensively, he’s almost impossible to stop from getting his, and it’s almost all off ball, from cuts, PnR, PnP, and offensive rebounds. Not the passer that Garnett was...but does that offset the fact that Davis just seems much better as a scorer, without being ball-dominant whatsoever?

Not to mention that although he’s not KG defensively, he’s still one of the best defenders in the league imo.

I don't know why you think his defense doesn't stack up to Garnett. He's a great rim protector, great defending the pick and roll and he's the best big man I've ever seen defending in space; usually when a big gets switched on a Lillard/Harden/Curry, etc... it's a mismatch to be exploited but Davis is such an athletic freak that it's not really a mismatch. Garnett might have been better on that end than AD is right now but we're definitely not talking about a significant gap if so.

Nah, Garnett’s defensive awareness and IQ were pretty clearly on another level compared to Davis at this point. Garnett is the best PnR defender of all time, and was still the best defender in the game despite getting older, because his defensive IQ was just that good. Frequently diagnosed offensive plays before they even happened and directed his teammates on how to defend the action. This was well-documented.

Davis just isn’t on that level...a lot of what makes him great is how much of a physical freak he is...Garnett was a physical freak that was also the smartest post-Russell defender ever.

KG himself was also frequently tasked with defending perimeter players as their primary defender, not just on switches. He entered the league as a SF after all. He also had a well publicized matchup against T-Mac one game after he had already made the switch to PF full time and basically shut him down. I don’t see Davis as being any more physically capable than prime KG tbh.

Garnett is a better defensive 'quarterback' by a distance, but I'd give Davis the edge in both rim protection and perimeter defense. I think one thing to take into account is how much harder it is for big men to defend now, when most NBA offenses rely on long distance shooting and all of the league's elite perimeter players excel at exploiting big men in space off switches. Team offenses are more sophisticated, efficient and operate further away from the basket. This is what makes Davis so great on defense, he is a big man with the mobility of a guard basically, Garnett was a pretty great athlete himself but I don't think it was quite to AD level, I certainly feel more comfortable with AD defending in space against top guards anyway...

Overall, I'd give Garnett a clear but not massive edge on defense. I don't think switching the two would suddenly elevate the Pels to elite defense or make Boston/Wolves tank significantly on that end...

As for the overall comparison, it's definitely legit, I think current AD and peak Garnett are close enough that you can make a good case for one or the other. But... AD has only just turned 25yo, seems crazy to say given how good Garnett was but I think AD has the potential to make this not much of a comparison when all is said and done. Not only by improving on some aspects (namely his playmaking/passing ability and becoming even more comfortable from 3pt range) but I think he'll look even scarier when he's on a team properly built to contend...

[dhsilv2]

AD still cannot read what the offense is doing consistently and often is out of place on defense. He's improved a lot this year, but too many people are focused on the tools in his bag and not the results he is getting on the court. Wouldn't shock me at all if over the next few years he does reach that KG level as he is a better shot blocker. I don't buy the idea he's even close on the perimeter. KG was able to play the 2 on offense and defense if called on. Davis can't do that.

[GSP]

Derrick Rose has outplayed Cp3 in 2 playoff games..............He hasnt been the same since injury from allstar break IMO. Yeah he will have games when he can iso and look like Jordan but TBH many top level scorers in the league could do that in his position with the ridiculous spacing Houston has

[ronnymac2]

Derrick Rose has outplayed Cp3 in 2 playoff games..............He hasnt been the same since injury from allstar break IMO. Yeah he will have games when he can iso and look like Jordan but TBH many top level scorers in the league could do that in his position with the ridiculous spacing Houston has

Married Derrick Rose > Gangbangin' Derrick Rose

[GSP]

Derrick Rose has outplayed Cp3 in 2 playoff games..............He hasnt been the same since injury from allstar break IMO. Yeah he will have games when he can iso and look like Jordan but TBH many top level scorers in the league could do that in his position with the ridiculous spacing Houston has

Married Derrick Rose > Gangbangin' Derrick Rose

wasnt aware he got married

[ardee]

I may be getting caught up in the moment, but I’m thinking Davis vs peak KG is a legit discussion at this point. He’s not the defender that KG was...but offensively, he’s almost impossible to stop from getting his, and it’s almost all off ball, from cuts, PnR, PnP, and offensive rebounds. Not the passer that Garnett was...but does that offset the fact that Davis just seems much better as a scorer, without being ball-dominant whatsoever?

Not to mention that although he’s not KG defensively, he’s still one of the best defenders in the league imo.

I'm guessing you have peak KG as a top 10 peak of all time... so you'd have Davis in there too?

Yeah possibly...although because of the passing and defense, I’d probably still take KG, but Davis keeps impressing me more and more.

In that case is he your best player this year, or is Harden a top 10 peak as well?

[GSP]

Ricky trying to take Russ out of the Poy discussion.

[ronnymac2]

Rubio/Gobert are probably the second-best duo in the league behind maybe Curry/Draymond.

They anchor the defense and provide a sound platform for any combination of offensive players at the 2/3/4. Gobert is a DPOY and Rubio is an elite defensive G. Rubio is up there for being the smartest and most skilled passers in the league, and Gobert is one of the most efficient low-USG% players in the league.

Talk me down. Neither one are top-10 players, and obviously other duos have superior talent, but is there any other duo as solid, portable, and lacking in the diminishing returns department as Rubio/Gobert?

I swear this is not in response to the current game. I've talked about this duo before.

[therealbig3]

I'm guessing you have peak KG as a top 10 peak of all time... so you'd have Davis in there too?

Yeah possibly...although because of the passing and defense, I’d probably still take KG, but Davis keeps impressing me more and more.

In that case is he your best player this year, or is Harden a top 10 peak as well?

That’s a good way to put it in perspective. I probably was getting too caught up in the moment, because I feel like Harden would be my #1 this year. Without really thinking about it, Harden might be a top 25 peak for me, and Davis would be around there as well probably. I think I was underselling the difference on defense between Davis and Garnett, as well as KG’s ability to play point forward. But Davis is no doubt the better scorer.

[GSP]

Rubio/Gobert are probably the second-best duo in the league behind maybe Curry/Draymond.

They anchor the defense and provide a sound platform for any combination of offensive players at the 2/3/4. Gobert is a DPOY and Rubio is an elite defensive G. Rubio is up there for being the smartest and most skilled passers in the league, and Gobert is one of the most efficient low-USG% players in the league.

Talk me down. Neither one are top-10 players, and obviously other duos have superior talent, but is there any other duo as solid, portable, and lacking in the diminishing returns department as Rubio/Gobert?

I swear this is not in response to the current game. I've talked about this duo before.

Ricky being a piss poor shooter and finisher is still a massive hole.

Simmons/Embiid is grand canyon gap better by any criteria. Then theres Jrue/Davis, Kyrie/Horford, Victor/Myles, Jimmy/Towns, Cp3/Capella or Harden/Capella etc. Theyre prolly top 10 as far as guard/big duos tho

[Clyde Frazier]

Just went back to confirm... Rubio started playing pro at 15 years old in the ACB league and made his euroleague debut at 16. This is his 13th season of pro basketball. I know his NBA career hasn't quite panned out as many hoped, but that's pretty incredible. While I'm rooting for OKC, still happy for him having this huge game tonight.

[Dr Spaceman]

I think you're really overrating NOP. They post-Boogie run wasn't impressive, mostly beating up on bad teams and squeaking by some decent teams like the Spurs and Clippers. In fact, they ended up with the lowest SRS of any of the WC playoff teams. Even with the best player in Davis, I don't believe they would win a series against Utah or OKC who make up that second tier of quality teams.

You have to consider what happened in the playoffs, and NOP just swept a Portland team that was one of those with a higher SRS.

[ronnymac2]

Rubio/Gobert are probably the second-best duo in the league behind maybe Curry/Draymond.

They anchor the defense and provide a sound platform for any combination of offensive players at the 2/3/4. Gobert is a DPOY and Rubio is an elite defensive G. Rubio is up there for being the smartest and most skilled passers in the league, and Gobert is one of the most efficient low-USG% players in the league.

Talk me down. Neither one are top-10 players, and obviously other duos have superior talent, but is there any other duo as solid, portable, and lacking in the diminishing returns department as Rubio/Gobert?

I swear this is not in response to the current game. I've talked about this duo before.

Ricky being a piss poor shooter and finisher is still a massive hole.

Simmons/Embiid is grand canyon gap better by any criteria. Then theres Jrue/Davis, Kyrie/Horford, Victor/Myles, Jimmy/Towns etc. Theyre prolly top 10 as far as guard/big duos tho

Is that true of Rubio though? He set career highs in virtually every shooting category this year, including FGAs per 100, efficiency at the rim, 3-point shooting, and efficiency from most mid-range areas. He's aggressive enough now where defenses react, and he certainly spreads the floor with his 3-point shooting (he was never had from beyond the arc anyway).

Simmons/Embiid I can see because they are so great on defense and Embiid's catch-and-shoot 3-point shooting really opens the floor and makes him portable. Probably go Davis/Holiday with how amazing AD is and this new Jrue. Not sure about the others. Jimmy/Towns don't have great chemistry, Victor/Myles are not yet a great offensive base, and Kyrie/Horford really lack size (don't trust Horford's defense in the postseason). Great offensive chemistry though.

[Zeitgeister]

Rubio/Gobert are probably the second-best duo in the league behind maybe Curry/Draymond.

They anchor the defense and provide a sound platform for any combination of offensive players at the 2/3/4. Gobert is a DPOY and Rubio is an elite defensive G. Rubio is up there for being the smartest and most skilled passers in the league, and Gobert is one of the most efficient low-USG% players in the league.

Talk me down. Neither one are top-10 players, and obviously other duos have superior talent, but is there any other duo as solid, portable, and lacking in the diminishing returns department as Rubio/Gobert?

I swear this is not in response to the current game. I've talked about this duo before.

Ricky being a piss poor shooter and finisher is still a massive hole.

Simmons/Embiid is grand canyon gap better by any criteria. Then theres Jrue/Davis, Kyrie/Horford, Victor/Myles, Jimmy/Towns etc. Theyre prolly top 10 as far as guard/big duos tho

Is that true of Rubio though? He set career highs in virtually every shooting category this year, including FGAs per 100, efficiency at the rim, 3-point shooting, and efficiency from most mid-range areas. He's aggressive enough now where defenses react, and he certainly spreads the floor with his 3-point shooting (he was never had from beyond the arc anyway).

Simmons/Embiid I can see because they are so great on defense and Embiid's catch-and-shoot 3-point shooting really opens the floor and makes him portable. Probably go Davis/Holiday with how amazing AD is and this new Jrue. Not sure about the others. Jimmy/Towns don't have great chemistry, Victor/Myles are not yet a great offensive base, and Kyrie/Horford really lack size (don't trust Horford's defense in the postseason). Great offensive chemistry though.

I would strongly disagree with the opinion that Rubio was never bad beyond the arc. He was a .315 career 3pt shooter over 6 years in Minnesota on 2.1 attempts per game. I can't stress enough that these shots were only ever taken to keep a defense honest too, these were a lot of set shots that he was open for.

[therealbig3]

I think whoever plays better between LeBron and Westbrook from here on out gets my top 5 nod, even if they both lose in the 1st round.

A top 4 of Harden, Davis, Giannis, and Oladipo would be pretty dope though lmao.

[ronnymac2]

I would strongly disagree with the opinion that Rubio was never bad beyond the arc. He was a .315 career 3pt shooter over 6 years in Minnesota on 2.1 attempts per game. I can't stress enough that these shots were only ever taken to keep a defense honest too, these were a lot of set shots that he was open for.

That's fair. In that case, he'd be a negative. Very true.


Semi-related...I want to express how impressed I was by Donovan Mitchell last night as well. For sure it wasn't his best offensive game (5 turnovers, no free throws, poor overall efficiency). But...he recognized early that he wasn't in rhythm and took his foot off the pedal when he saw Rubio sawing through the defense in the second QT. Mitchell looked to excel off-ball, and it worked. He contributed in other ways as well, through defense, rebounding (11 rebounds), moving the ball, and spacing the floor (4 for 7 from downtown). He capped the game with that iso 3-pointer from the wing.

To me, he played a mature game. It isn't always highlight layups and 70% true Shooting, so how then do you contribute? Mitchell contributed in important ways last night. Impressed with the poise displayed by the rookie.